K/S & K.S. (Kindred Spirits)/Issues 1-2
|K/S & K.S. (Kindred Spirits) Issues|
|Issues 001-002||Issues 003-004||Issues 005-006||Issues 007-008||Issues 009-010||Issues 011-012||Issues 013-014||Issues 015-016||Issues 017-018||Issues 019-020||Issues 021-054|
|Title:||K/S & K.S. (Kindred Spirits)|
|Editor(s):||Central Mailers: BH (#1-#12), NS (#13-), DM (1988), LB (1993), BA (1997-1998)|
|Date(s):||1982 until at least 1998 (as print), however, it also moved online in 1996 to become K/S Circle|
|Frequency:||supposedly every two months but was more erratic than that|
|Fandom:||Star Trek: TOS|
|Click here for related articles on Fanlore.|
There were 54 issues published between 1982 and 1998.
K/S & K.S. (Kindred Spirits) 1 was published in July 1982 (deadline for the next issue is September 1, 1982) and contains 63 pages. The central mailer is BH.
There are 12 members.
Tribs: LB (K/S), AC (Opposite Poles), NE (Out in... Left Field), SF (8206.25), BH (For the World is Horny), CH (Lamartian Lune), SBS (Ears Only), KS (Twin Brothers), TG (Hi Everyone!), CAT (And What We Were Before), T'R (And in This Corner), and SW (Fantasies).
It contains these fanworks:
- untitled story by LB
- Beau Guste, poem by LB
- some paper dolls by KS
- some illos by LB and SW
- Fantasies, poem by SW
- Stolen Moments, poem by SW
- a reprint of some filks from The Old Trekker's Songbook: "I Hate the Customs of This Place," "Doesn't That Sound Logical?"
When I got the idea to start up a K/S apa, I hadn't so much as a clue that I would be making a career out of it. I thought, hey, how hard could it be? You write up an ad, collect a few members, ramble on a bit for your first zine, staple all the zines together, and send the whole thing out. Right? Well, yeah, basically. But as I am in the process of finding out, there is more to it than that. There were flyers to compose. The thing would need to have some covers. And then there's the printing. And I just realized I'm going to need a heavier duty stapler than the one I usually use. So many decisions to make! What about the table of contents? Should I number all the pages? Shall I put the zines in any kind of order? What in the world should I SAY to everyone in my first zine? And I never realized that recruiting new members would be such an undertaking. In other words...I sure am having one hell of a good time!
[snipped]I've abandoned my current project which was a 1983 K/S calendar, and am now using those drawings that were completed as covers for the apa. Early on into the project, it became apparent to me that I could not produce twelve good K/S drawings in a row. As a matter of fact, ONE in a row seems to be my limit.
I can't remember all that clearly, but I seem to recall that one of my very first introductions to K/S was in the form of a story by Leslie Fish entitled "Shelter". There were one or two stories that I don't remember in between that and my first major K/S acquisition. Thrust, which I remember quite vividly. We had company that day, and I can just imagine what I looked like with my eyes bugging out of my head as I unwrapped the zine and pulled it out of the envelope (I had never seen that unmistakable [Gayle F] style set to the K/S concept before: and especially not on a cover!). So before the thing was half-way out, I "thrust" it back into its envelope and stashed it underneath a pile of dirty laundry. ("Dirty" laundry???) And just for the record, in case you hadn't already surmised, my favorite K/S artist is [ Gayle F]. And my very favorite of her works is the one that's on the cover of Nocturne. You know. The one with the long, wavy Spock hair and the intertwined K and S hands.My favorite story. Gee. That's a toughie. The Prize by Ray Newton is high on my list, as is Desert Heat by the one and only G. P. (I wonder what it feels like to be so incredibly talented?) Then, of course, there's Cynthia Drake's A Thin Flame. Kathleen Resch's Within the Prism, and Syn Ferguson's Valley of Shadows. This Time Forever by Lin Anderson was always one of my favorites, and, well, I guess I'd better stop before I end up copying the entire table of contents out of several of my favorite zines. And speaking of my favorite zines...oh no. I'm not going to go through THAT again. Suffice It to say that I have so many I really like that it's too hard to single out any one. In fact, I even have several I haven't even read yet--Naked Times, to name one (or more accurately, to name three). Is this a common occurrence? I mean, do you guys have caches of unread zines that for some reason just seem to pile up, or is it me?
From LB:I don't know how I ever made it through the first showing of ST;TWOK. I tend to be hyper and nervous anyway, and then the film broke two or three times before they finally got the movie going. So you saw the star field, and heard the first few notes of the old ST theme, and then...zippo. Approximately 15 minutes later, the movie started, and I realized that even though I was enjoying PARTS of it. Approximately 15 minutes later the movie started and I realized that even though I was enjoying PARTS of it, on the whole I was in such a state of anguish that the movie was being ruined for me. I blame this on the great Paramount Hype Campai.gn. I knew for certain that Spock was going to die and I was dreading, it, but I was also concerned that having gone so far as to kill Spock, they might not think twice about killing off a minor character, or making some other major blunder that was no tin keeping with my idea of Trek. J mean, Iv/as so scared for Chekov for awhile there that I completely forgot about Spock. And then I began reading things into and between the lines that weren't really there.
From AC:I still have a lump in my throat about the movie. Spock will return. I think this is a good idea. I'm your typical, isolated K/S fan. We got to stick together, gang. Anybody know what Spock wanted McCoy to remember?
From AC:I'm hesitant to make a confession - -I'm. not a great believer in KS. Then why am I joining this APA and why do I read KS? I started reading KS because Bobbie started buying it. Free is wonderful. At first I found the idea ridiculous, but certainly different from the zines I'd been reading for over a decade. I also thought that on the whole KS is better written than much of mainline Trek. Then there was the -- I read it cover to cover while she slept, didn't buy a word of it, but I still kept reading. I began to believe that under certain circumstances maybe it just might be possible. Even now I'll any story eventually but only certain ones seem plausible to me. Others are beautifully written, I enjoy them, but I don't believe them. Bobbie has always maintained that I read some of the zines over and over -- this isn't strictly true. I can never read every story in a zine the first time through. I avoid any story where the illustrations show the new (from the 1st movie) uniform and any mention of V'ger sends me to the next story. I don't consider ST-TMP bible trek and a semi-negative feeling about the first movie hangs over to any story based on it. Totally unreasonable I know, but I overcome it the next time I pick up the zine. I also put off reading very romantic type stories until a later reading because I find these stories often don't maintain character integrity. Ghod that sounded pompous even to me I. mean to say the characters as I see them not as I expect, everyone to see them. This all makes me feel rather like an infidel. If anyone really objects to a less than devout KSer in this APA I will withdraw, but I hope no one does because I think I'm going to enjoy talking Trek with someone again. I need some new perspectives to consider. That's one of the reasons I'm joining this APA. Reading Bobbie's other APA it appears that KS orientated trekkers discuss Trek more than the other members.
From NE:I enjoyed ST:TWK. I went hoping, but expecting to be let down. I was annoyed at all those months of being jerked around—does Spock or doesn't he--he does and it's _____ (choose one -- Paramount, Nimoy, Bennett, Roddenberry, Other) fault — that I was afraid the movie would really stink. I still resent all the jerking around and I'm afraid there's more coming before the next movie, but at least I saw a movie that had a lot of what always was Trek for me.
From NE:I'm a devout believer in the genetic theory as related to ST; the trek chromosome and in particular, the K/S gene. We are, of course, all aware that a number of people are born with trek chromosomes which influence the development of an interest in ST. Unfortunately, less scientific study has been given to the K/S gene beyond the evidence that it is a random factor found in a select few. Also that it lies dormant until exposure. Case histories have confirmed that some genes require more exposure than others for proper manifestation. Mine, however, was let loose by a simple footnote. After being drawn to trek since the first aired episode, I had never considered Kirk and Spock to be anything but.. .ahem... good friends. It wasn't until I read Roddenberry's novel that even the very thought of it sifted through, but that was enough. My K/S gene was activated. And when I discovered fandom and zines about six or seven months later, it became positively energetic.
From SF:As far as favorite stories go, I think The Hustler is a delight...upbeat, clever, yet keeping the characterization intact even in the alternate circumstances. And speaking of good characterization, I feel that NIGHTVISIONS is still one of the most believable and well constructed K/S theories. The portrayal of Sarek and Amanda's reactions to the bonding between K & S has always impressed me as a far more logical response, especially from Sarek. Too many stories have him so violently opposed, in some extreme cases he sounds like a Vulcan version of Archie Bunker.
From SF:BLADE RUNNER, as a book, has a point which makes it rather relevant to TREK. In the book, the late Philip Dick (what a pseudonym for a K/S writer!) focuses on androids. The major feature that distinguishes the androids from Humans is a lack of empathy. The result being that the androids pay lip service to emotions but really do not respond when animals, people, even other androids are in trouble, danger, etc. What is appropriate about this is that if Spock were indeed devoid of emotion, he would be just like one of these androids. Dick is able to maintain this lack of empathy, emotion and cold self-servingness throughout the book and it is rather chilling. Spock could have been, should have been like this if Nimoy had not given Spock a soul. Of course, in a very ironic fashion, readers feel a great deal of empathy for the androids in this book. But all of this is a digression.
I think the movie fits into my K/S universe. In short, I am going to talk about seeing the movie through K/S eyes. Overall, you get the impression that Spock is more at peace with himself than he has ever been in his life. This is no doubt due in some small part to the experience with V'ger. I think that throughout the movie, Nimoy did a superb job of keeping Spock very low-key... Spock is the ever-present supportive person that we write about. It is also easy to imagine that Spock and Kirk are living on Earth with Spock teaching at the Academy and Kirk having moved into the Admiralty — something Spock obviously thinks is not a good career move for Kirk but Kirk may have felt the need to make more of an impact on policy, may have sought a few new challenges. When the two meet after the training exercise. Kirk seems to experience advantage of jealousy when Spock is called to the Big E. Kirk also seems a bit depressed over the fact that it is his birthday and Spock will not be thereto share it in their "home". In the scene in the apartment, I found myself wondering what Spock's half of the place looked like. I also found it easy to imagine many nights that Kirk and Spock spent sharing their lives and daily routines as they reclined in that pair of chairs in front of the fireplace. When McCoy says to Kirk, "What the hell do you want Jim?" [Barbara S] leaned over to me (when we saw the film in Houston) and said, "Spock." for Kirk. I have to second that comment.
When Spock puts his hand up to the glass, you wonder if he transferred some of his life's essence to Kirk in that moment. What follows is the most difficult part of the movie to bring into the K/S universe. Kirk is upset and moved at the funeral but a little later, on the bridge, he is smiling. If his bond with Spock were severed, he'd be in no state to smile unless he knows and senses that Spock's life essence is intact, waiting for a new body.
[snipped]I am really looking forward to seeing what type of K/S stories we turn out-based on this movie. As a writer, I have been affected by the movie in that the sad ending of the film has made it difficult to write anything upbeat. I hope others are not similarly affected and that some excellent stories and poems will make their way into zines.
From SBS:[Despite being a first-generation Trekkie who saw all 79 episodes in the first airing], I only began reading fanzines in the last year or so. I have written several stories, but none good enough to publish (yet, I hope). I am currently polishing a short story that deals with a heretical explanation for the linked evolution of Pon Farr and telepathy. It will probably be considered controversial, but it does explain why Spock was promoted so slowly, and why Vulcans refuse to discuss sexual matters on even a scientific basis.
My K/S exposure is rather limited, and I need to see the movie again and think about it some more before I can comment on its K/S aspects, I'd like to raise a different question, instead. In all the K/S stories I've read (admittedly not all that many) the reaction of their society is relatively benign. There might be some joking at their expense within Star Fleet, but I've seen no suggestion that there's price for Kirk and Spock to pay as a result of their bond, either professionally or privately, I think this results from the wish of writers to show a Utopian, non-discriminatory future, which is admirable, but is it a realistic projection from the series? (Please note that I am not questioning the premise of love, spiritual or sexual, between them, but rather the rosy-glassed picture of other's reactions.) My real problem is with the stories that have Vulcan, and especially Sarek and Amanda, welcoming the relationship and Kirk with open arms, I think outrage would be a more likely response, I have seen many stories that suggest that such a bond would be acceptable because they occurred between warriors in the pre-reform past. So what? Many practices of that time are no longer kosher: meat eating, wife stealing, open expression of emotions, war itself. The mere fact that something happened in the past doesn't mean it's considered to be traditional at present.If Sarek would stop speaking to his son for 18 years because he disagreed mon his choice of a career, how do you think he would react to Spock's choice of Kirk as "mate"? Remember, Spock is an only child, whom Sarek chose to bond to a girl. Don't you think he wants grandchildren to continue the family line? Also, it seems widely accepted that Vulcan has a (lack of) population problem and that Pon Farr represents an attempt of evolution to prevent extinction, by forcing sexual activity with a view to creating babies. If males are drawn only to their bond-mates, a male-male bond is, to put it mildly, unproductive. I don't think nature would allow herself to be thwarted that easily. For example, perhaps the male must mate with a female because the cure for the fever is exposure to some substance present only in vaginal secretions. This could make for some interesting complications, since a m-m bonded Vulcan would have to commit 'adultery' to survive. I imagine that Spock has been driven to this: What would be the effect on his bond with Kirk? How does the woman feel about it? Why did she consent? Did she consent? What happens if she conceives, and wants to form a family? Without Kirk being involved?
From TG:Has everyone else noticed that in the published ST books, all male authors accept that Vulcans are only potent at the peak of the seven year cycle, while all female authors hold out for sexier Vulcans, with only fertility tied to the cycle? Do you think this means men are less romantic, or women more imaginative? (Or just don't want their fantasies interfered with?)
From CAT:On K/S. Well, folks, to be honest, it turned me off at first, maybe because I got hold of one of the "worst" examples, who knows. But, I have read several since then that I find, what is the word, intriguing? The possibility of a bonding between Kirk and Spock is certainly plausible, with the deep mind link or chemistry or what have you that I think they share. My favorite stories deal with the close friendship between the two and the SUBTLE K/S. One of the stories that I am working on, that I have sent to a zine and have not heard from yet deals with the situation if Spock were to be CHANGED into a woman... same body, just different sex, and how would this effect the relationship with Kirk. I don't know why this idea intrigues me, but it does.
From CAT:Many K/S writers and readers consider K/S to be an alternate universe because they don't consider it appropriate for the Kirk and Spock that we saw on aired Trek. I feel that this is a mistaken notion. In my opinion, K/S is an alternate timeline; what would happen if 'x' event were to happen--would they or would they not become lovers. It's the same kind of fork in the road that one reaches with every significant decision or event that may change the course of your life. To have an alternate universe, I feel you have to create a universe with an alternate set of parameters, such as the mirror universe to our own where everything is inverted. Kirk and Spock would then have to be consistent with the universe in which they reside or in conflict with that universe. And the writer creating the relationship would have to deal with that Kirk and Spock based on those characteristics. In other words. Kirk and Spock would have to be alternate characters to our own, or parallel ones if you are working with parallel universes or the concept of man out of step with his environment. But you can't change one facet of their lives, say an event that changes their lifestyle or their characteristics and call it an alternate universe. Anyway, I'm interested in other people's thoughts on this subject.
From TGK:I don't think I'm ready to talk about my feelings about Star Trek II, but it seems like everyone else loves it. And there is much about it that is fantastic and even magnificent. But what I'd like to know is if any one of you out there did not like the movie and why. So screw up your courage and... And I guess the first big question here should be: where do you think the Kirk/Spock relationship is at the beginning of the movie? And while we're on the movie subject, some people were teasing at the last con that K/S now has a new meaning the Kirk/Saavik relationship. How do you feel about that? It's not nice to tease... I know it's mean to bring up questions without offering my own explanations, but since I'm rather ambivalent about this movie, I'd like to hear other fans' reactions first.
From TGK:My first contact with K/S literature was via the first issue of NAKED TIMES, which I bought because of a variety of reasons, all of them rooted in a basic (or should that base?}, just-turned-legally-l8 curiosity (that was back in '78 for those of you who don't remember when the first NT was published).
From TGK:On the subject of favorite stories or zines, let me start by listing my one big hate; death zines or stories. You know, the kind that seem bent on ruining your day by slaughtering and permanently maiming our friends. Just one of those tales is enough to send me into a long depression, so I'd rather not read death and destruction lit. Sure, I realize death is inevitable, but why dwell on that morbid fact? To quote D. DaBinett, fellow K/Ser and editor of the DUET zines in Great Britain: "We live, with death every day, I don't want it in my fiction too, because that's my 'pleasure' not 'sorrow'!" (DUET #3, p...137).
From TGK:I appreciate illoes especially if they're well done. [Gayle F's] style is my favorite (with Pat Stall and Mike Verina as second and third favorites), although sometimes [Gayle's] habit of using elaborate, quasi-Persian (i.e., cluttered) backgrounds does set my teeth on, edge a little. Normally, in order to avoid annoyance caused by distraction from the illoes, I go through a zine at least twice. Once through to look at the illoes (if any) by themselves, the, next time to read the stories.
I would like to address two of the remaining questions provided in the introductory flyers for this APA. Namely; 'Is K/S a valid extrapolation from the aired series? and 'Why is K/S an almost exclusively female phenomenon?'. I couldn't decide which one I wanted to write about the most, so I've decided to do both. The answer to whether K/S could be extrapolated from the series or whether it should be considered an alternate universe is in my opinion 'both'. I have seen K/S written both ways (sometimes in the same story as in Leslie Holden's 'Alternate Interlude', DUET #2), and there's evidence in the episodes to support both theories.
I very much doubt that either Mr. Roddenberry, NBC, or Paramount intended the K/S relationship to be extrapolated from any of the clues presented [in the show], but unfortunately for their viewpoint, all of the clues are so ambiguous that the biased observer can prove virtually anything he or she wants to (well, almost anything).
The evidence for the alternate universe theory is a little more clear-cut, and is present in the form of the Mirror Universe in 'Mirror, Mirror'. Consider; Given the existence of a savage parallel universe, you have tp admit the possibility that a parallel universe where Kirk and Spock are lovers could theoretically exist.
As for why K/S fandom is almost exclusively a female phenomenon, I don't think that there's any one answer that will cover all the bases. However, in most of the K/S I've read, I have been able to detect recurrent themes which I think might shed some light on the probably subconscious motivations of the authors, (that sounds nice and pompous, does it not?). In my sometimes muddled fashion, I will try to discuss the two I think are the most important by virtue of their high frequency. First of all, K/S almost without fail heavily emphasizes a deep emotional commitment between Kirk and Spock, making it central even over sex. Sure, sex is prominent, but it always seems to happen after an established interval (usually long)of time in which it is shown that the two men have grown to love one another. Those of you who've read or maybe looked through "The Joy of 'Gay Sex" by Dr. Silverstein and Ed Whitewill notice that this is very different from the way 'real' life homosexual affairs are begun or conducted. The emphasis there is on the fastest way to lay/get laid by someone and how to get the best results. Having lived in Hollywood for most of my life, I had what you might call a ringside seat for observing the antics of 'the boys', and I must say that the impression I got from the book is unfortunately accurate.
There are some K/S stories by female fen written 'realistically' of course, but I've noticed that they are almost always intended as parodies. A good example of this kind of K/S can be found in the British zine KAN'T/STOP LAUGHING #2 edited by Cilla Futcher. On the whole though, what I think the writers are saying in their stories, etc. can best be conveyed by a quote (yes, another one!) from Dr. Sisley and Bertha Harris' book 'The Joy of Lesbian Sex'; "...while sex can be "done," love must be felt before it can be made." And the predominant kind of K/S stories are definitely about love and love-making, not just free-wheeling action/adventure 'sex epics'.
K/S and other types (usually, male-written) of homo-erotic literature quite likely has its source in the teachings of our society. Specifically, the sex-role training of the 40s (and earlier) to the late 60's/early 70's. This training turned out emotionally normal (though inhibited) women and men who would out-Vulcan even the Masters at Gol in ST:TMP. Fortunately, this extremism is slowly disappearing (unfortunately, not as fast as I'd like it to). Of course, the predictable result of all this emotional foot-binding is that male Trek fen (general or K/S, and yes, there are a few of the latter who do write it too) in general would probably have serious trouble writing or even enjoying stories written with emphasis on two-way emotionalism rather than simple physicality.
[snipped]The other K/S theme I consider significant is the one which concentrates on violence in the form of bondage, rape, mental rape, slavery, etc. A lot of these stories seem to be written with a certain amount of glee when whatever it is happens to Kirk, which strikes one a little odd at first glance when you consider the amount of violence present in proportion to the allegedly non-violent nature of Trek fans in general. Stories of comparable things happening to Spock are rarer and are almost always handled in a more sympathetic manner. The overall effect in some of these zines is that the K/S fen (it seems to be only a small minority as almost all the examples of sadistic tales are written by the same two or three people) who are out to get Kirk. Again speaking for myself, I'll admit that I'm not too fond of Kirk as shown in the series. Granted, he's got intelligence, charm, looks, and he's probably a pretty nice guy when he feels like it. But I can't stand his womanizing habits, have often wanted to bop him good for them, and I suppose there are other lady fans out there who feel the same. Reasoning by analogy (I know it's a poor way so if you come up with a better way, let me know), it's possible that some of the K/S 'torture tales' stem from a certain desire to either get back at him for treating women like sex objects and nothing else or to see him tied someway to a person more than his intellectual equal and fully capable of holding him, down if necessary. Usually that person is Spock but not necessarily, as Lezlie Shell shows in her story 'No Such Thing' (OUT OF BOUNDS #1). Even when the roles are switched and it is Spock who is abused/enslaved/whatever by Kirk, the story invariably (at least in the ones I've seen) ends with Kirk 'getting it' by falling in love (sometimes against his will and/or 'better judgement') or becoming otherwise entangled with him as in [ Rosemary C's] 'Bed Of Silence' (OUT OF BOUNDS #1). Whether any of the above is grounds to state that the fen seem to have a vendetta against Kirk is debatable. However, since most of the Kirks that 'get it' in the end seem to be thorough bastards, I will say that it seems the fen think he should be taken down a peg (like off at the knees). No doubt you'll let me know which it is.
From SW:I became a STAR TREK fan when the show first came on the air. The only reason I watched it was because William Shatner was in it, and I'd been a Shatner fan for years, having been a devoted follower of his earlier series FOR THE PEOPLE. I came to love the show for itself, though. It wasn't until the mid 70's that I became an active contributor to Trek fanzines. How did I first discover K/S? I'm not sure I can remember the very first story I ever read. It was either Gerry Downes' zine ALTERNATIVE or Leslie Fish's "Shelter" in WARPED SPACE #20. I forget which came first, but I read one closely followed by the other. At first I was shocked by the idea. Then I thought about it for a while and reread the stories — and it didn't seem quite so shocking anymore. It even began to look, if you'll pardon the expression, logical. Jim and Spock are so obviously perfect for each other. I've read numerous K & S relationship stories in which their friendship was growing progressively closer and closer. It seemed a natural step to move that final distance from loving friends to lovers. I don't like reading about other people in bed with either Jim or Spock. It sounds wrong to me — like a sour note in the middle of a pretty song. Maybe that's a result of jealousy on my part. I love them both. I don't mind seeing them with each other but another woman? No way! Is this peculiarity limited only to me or do others share it?
My favorite artist? Pat Stall, with [Gayle F] running a close second. I think the best K/S drawing Pat ever did was on pages 101 & 102 of the zine MATTER/ANTIMATTER #2. *SIGH* Absolutely magnificent! My favorite K/S zine? That's a tough one. There are several that I like — DUET, THE NAKED TIMES, OUT OF BOUNDS, CHEAP THRILLS. I like OUT OF BOUNDS because the stories are so wildly different and intriguing. I never know what to expect. CHEAP THRILIS mixes humor and serious pieces. DUET is always well done and comes out miraculously on a regular schedule. THE NAKED TIMES was excellent until Della got bogged down with problems and the zine went into limbo. She hopes to get it going again soon. I enjoyed the zine COMPANION until I got to the end where Jim and Spock died. I do not like to read about them dying. There's enough death in real life. I don't like finding it in my entertainment as well. I know losing loved ones is part of life. I've watched people I love die. But these stories are supposed to be for our enjoyment, aren't they?
K/S & K.S. (Kindred Spirits) 2 was published in late September 1982 and contains 78 pages.
There were 20 members.
Tribs: LB (K/S), AC (Opposite Poles), CD (From the Suburbs), DD (Just Words), NE (Out in Left Field), SF (8208.27), BPG (Ad Astra #1), JG (Unity of Opposites), BH (For the World is Horny and I Have Touched Spock's Thigh), CH (Lamartian Lune), RL ("Remember"), SL (8.27/82), BL (Imagine), (SBS (Ears Only), KS (This Side of a Pair of Dark Eyes), TG (Et Nunc Et Semper), CAT (And What We Were Before), T'R (And in This Corner), DVH (Hi, people!), Susan W (Fantasies).
- Who's Minding the Store, fiction by SW
- Heaven, poem by SW
- Sickbay, poem by CD
- Remember, poem by RL
- This Side of a Pair of Dark Eyes, poem by KS
- Destiny's Child is Full of Woe by TG
- The Best of Times, poem by DVH
- The Lower Levels, poem by DVH
- Of Midnight, Missions, & Myths, original, non-K/S fiction by DVH
- illo of a young Kirk and Spock by LB
From DVH:... what Spock wanted McCoy to "remember" in the movie, I haven't been able to figure it out.
From DVH:Suppose Spock knew [in The Wrath of Khan] he was going to die in that radiation-filled room. The script was quite explicit, ya know! He also knew, from his experiences with higher consciousness, meditation and Kolinahr, that the mind is composed of an energy which cannot die, a concept which shouldn't be alien even to Vulcan scientists since physics have proven that energy can never be destroyed. It can only alter form. And since the synapse of the brain is a definite electrical energy, Spock would have the scientific knowledge and ability to "transfer" that energy into someone else. Spock wanted desperately to be with Kirk, he essentially gave his life so that Kirk and the Enterprise could go on existing--- but he was also "human" enough (Sorry, Spock!) to want to be a part of that continuation. Sorry, but you can't tell me that his actions were based on logic alone. So, in a very human emotional state, he was able to transfer his "life essence" into McCoy until such time as Kirk can figure out a way to resurrect that Vulcan body he knows and loves so well. In short, I think it's a good possibility that Spock was telling McCoy to remember him, literally, to remember the thoughts, the mind, the "reality" which linked the three of them together. In McCoy's semi-conscious state, there would have been no resistance, no normal "rejection" of the intruder. It can be quite scientific, almost as if Spock planted a "seed" of himself in McCoy. Since I'm a firm believer in psychic phenomena, and since scientific studies even in our 20th Century world have proven that the majority of "ghosts" and spectres seem to linger in a place which was familiar and in the vicinity of people whom they knew and loved, perhaps Spock was telling McCoy to use that mind-energy to keep his consciousness alive. Thus, McCoy's statement: "He's not dead--- not as long as we remember him" makes good sense — both "romantically" and scientifically. Actually, it's just as possible that Spock was simply telling the good doctor to "Remember" to zip up his fly, put the milk back in the refrigerator, or wear matching socks to the funeral!
From TG:An APA, huh? Sounds like a great idea to me — especially since I've long since lost faith in a lot of other letter-type zines-. Basically, I'm a person who doesn't like to argue (not to be confused with discuss) pointlessly back and forth forever and three days. In short, the raging K/S arguments in INTERSTAT grew to be a great bore — particularly when it became obvious that neither side had any real intention of even listening to the other side's arguments. Basically, it's a lot more stimulating - and hopefully productive to discuss possibilities within the ranks of those who share a lot of similar ideas on the same subjects.
First of all, I'd like to clear up some of the misunderstandings regarding NAKED TIMES and it's future. Essentially NTM4/5 is late. Very late. Very very late. *Sigh* To make a long story short and spare you most of the gory details, suffice it to say that the past two years haven't been particularly "wonderful" for me — both financially and personally, And since fandom is a hobby (as well as a way of life!), I simply haven't had the time/energy/money to do the things I've wanted to get done. In the past, I've simply taken out loans to finance printing NAKED TIMES and STELLAR GAS. Unfortunately, what with the state of the economy, finance companies are no longer willing to shell out $3000 for what they consider a "Risk Venture". So, I've been attempting to print NTM4/5 in bits and pieces and so on. It's not been easy, but neither have I abandoned it, folks! In other words, I'm aware that a lot of folks out there have the feeling that I've absconded with the advance orders money and am now living in seclusion in the Bahamas. No such luck. I'm still sitting here in Southern California wondering how a reconstituted desert can attract so damned many people.
At any rate, I'm still working on all my proposed zines NAKED TIMES, KILLING TIME, and possibly an other issue of STELLAR GAS! I'm using advance order money for the printing, subsidizing the mailing with my own $$$, and hoping for the best. For the most part, the majority of fans have been more than understanding and patient, for which I'd like to thank you. I'm not gafiating. I'm not in the Bahamas. I do answer mail. I am not, however, responsible for letters lost in the mail. Recently I've heard from a few fans who stated that they've written to me several times and received no response. Let me repeat: I answer all letters that reach me. It may take a few weeks, usually more than a month! But I DO respond. Hint: you might get a faster response if you send a SASE!But basically, I'm still involved in fandom and happy that way. I'm just sorry that so many problems have arisen, not the least of which was the fact that the box of NTH4/5 which was sent to MediaWest con was opened by the post office - "REFUSED FOR SHIPMENT" - and returned to me 2 days after the con had ended. As far as I knew, it was supposed to be there so, as Han said to everyone at one time another: "It isn't my fault!" Guess the old men who operate the mail-gobbler couldn't quite handle our K/S reality. So much for freedom of the press- So much for problems. 'Nuff said.
From CAT:As for why male authors of published ST books seem to prefer impotent Vulcans, it's possible that lack of imagination and/or romantic inclinations might have something to do with it. I find it more likely that they are having certain anxieties, over their own performance, though, and as a result feel a need to 'castrate' their Vulcans so they can feel superior. After all, I imagine all those Vulcans capable of going at five or six house without a break which you find regularly in the female-dominated fanzines would tend to be rather threatening to them.
From CAT:your comments about Thrust and why you loved the [Gayle F] cover reminded me of a friend, whom I could never get interested in K/S. Yet, when I first told her that Gayle was going to do a K/S poster, she was all excited, and begged me to get her one. When I finally saw it, I thought oh mighod, you better look at this — are you sure you want something so explicit. She kept shaking her head yes, and I kept saying, are you sure, because I couldn't believe her response. Turned out that she wanted it for Gayle's art, because Gayle is one of the few artists that puts meat onto Spock rather than have him so thin, like Nimoy.
From SBS:As for the emotional attachment being more important in K/S than sex, unlike the emphasis put upon it in the gay world — well the answer is quite simple. Kirk and Spock are not gay. Their orientation is not toward the male of the species, but toward each other, because of the very special qualities they find in each other and the support that they share. That is the first most basic part of K/S you have to solve for yourself — for two men who are generally oriented toward women to be involved in a homosexual relationship is quite different than two men who lust after men period. This is not putting gays down by any means, it's just that K/S is love — that's what people are dealing with, not sex for sex's sake.
From SBS:The discussion of the K/S stories following the female pattern seems right to me. I think it's high tine that we women got into the writing of erotica, since the male oriented stuff I've read is so boring. It tends to break down into lists of who, where and with what, like a description of the operation of robots... Ideas are sexier than parts of bodies, after all, the most important sex organ is located between the ears.
From SBS:"Death zines" -- I'm with you. I think they should be forced to put black borders around all stories that deal with death or dismemberment. Or how about a consumer warning? "The surgeon General has determined that reading this story can lead to depression."
From SBS:I feel that Paramount has treated the fen like trained seals. They say "death and Spock" and we jump up and down, write letters, and organize boycotts. They toss us a bone now and then, but I still feel used. Even so, I don't quite dare ignore them. If no one responds they may decide no one cares, and no more ST. It's all so unnecessary — the only ones it upsets are the fans, and they would learn of a movie by word of mouth and pay to see it even if they released it without a single ad or promo.
From BL:I'm very fussy with the fanzines I shell out my money for, and I like a good mixture of exciting, well-planned, realistic plots with good strong viable characterizations. I like zilch contrivances on the part of certain writers who set up their characters to react in a totally uncharacteristic manner, or insult the integrity of their readers by presenting totally unrealistic plots/causes and actions for the setting of the story or "moral to tell." A message in a story is one thing, a total lie is quite another. I don't care much for hurt/comfort because it usually preaches a religious/moralistic approach; particularly the "suffer and be redeemed" theme. To my mind, h/c is a suppressive means of dealing with touch, which is actually the sublimated urge for sexual contact. Of course, this is repugnant to those who use writing as a way to preach to their audience. Their hangs-ups are blatant when one reads those stories! I'm not saying all h/c writers write for this reason; some express a mothering instinct and yet other stories, I wouldn't define as h/c but are simply placed in this category because someone is hurt emotionally or mentally (in other words, the hurt and comfort is not a plot line contrived to get the characters to suffer/sin and then be comforted/ saved/redeemed).
From SL:I prefer [ Gayle F ], Syn Ferguson, Gerry Downes], because K & S are virile men — masculine both in and out of bed. And there's no soap opera type of settings with jealousy and possessiveness. If these actions occur, it's usually from deeper levels or subconscious problems in the relationship. Another quibble I often make — PLEASE — don't make one of the partners into a woman! Leave them as they are. Neither Kirk nor Spock would ever use the words "dear" or "sweetheart" etc. with each another man — why with each other? Seems rather a trifle too sticky-sweet.
From SL:I did not discover Trek until the mid-70's, only saw it twice during its first run and it didn't stop the world for me then. My ST chromosome must have been in its incubation period. Have been K/S, however, since I first discovered fandom, especially zine fandom. My first zine was CONTACT #3 and the first fannish story I ever read was "The First Step" by Susan Dorsey in that ish which dealt with Kirk and Spock deciding to become bonded. I was rather...well... floored to put it mildly. It took some investigation to find this was definitely not a generally accepted idea in fandom, but I decided it seemed logical to me and have been hooked ever since. Truthfully, my first reaction was, "Gad! Whatinhell's this!?'
From JG:In regards to the question about the fan writers portraying a benign and relaxed reaction by society to the K/S relationship. If you want to read a story in which the reaction is ANYTHING but benign, I suggest Emily Vance's "The Rack" which appeared in CONTACT #4 (she also wrote a sequel "All the King's Horses, All the King's Men" which appeared in THE FARTHEST STAR #1). The premise of the story is that they are not having an affair but are accused of such and several other charges by Starfleet whose reaction is markedly bigoted, to say the least. (I must warn you this story is frequently deeply hated by hard-core K/Sers because of her characterization of Kirk and Spock.)
From JG:To me, K/S and the "real" STAR TREK are one and the same. I find K/S perfectly compatible with the ST I see on the screen. I don't have to go to an alternate timeline, much less an alternate universe, to make it happen. That doesn't mean that I think the only possible interpretation of aired Trek is K/S, but only that when I watch it from a K/S perspective, it works. The original TV series showed a deep love between the two men — and a fascination of each for the other — that I think would, in the normal course of events, ultimately have led to their becoming lovers. Just when that might happen is wide open to speculation. Personally, I like the idea that they became lovers sometime between the end of the 3rd TV season and the end of the 5-year mission. A crisis in the relationship sent Spock back to Vulcan, but they were reunited in ST:TMP. By the time of ST:TWOK, the relationship had become stable, permanent and secure. Within that very rough framework, many "variations are possible. I wish I had time and creativity to explore them all! The view that K/S is the "real" Trek colors my view of K/S fan fiction; the K/S lit I most enjoy is the more "realistic" variety. I've thoroughly enjoyed everything written by [Gayle F], Leslie Fish, Gerry Downes, and Syn Ferguson, and some of their writings have moved me more deeply than I can express. Gayle has the most incredible grasp of the characters of any Trek writer I've ever seen. Currently I'm reading Leslie Fish's novel Sunset and Evening Star in FESARIUS V. It is superb: first rate Trek, excellent science fiction, and definitely K/S.
From JG:My introduction to K/S was rather abrupt. It came in the form of a lettercol to MENAGERIE, the first zine I ever read, in 1978. It was rather strange, coming in cold on a discussion which had obviously been going on for some time. At first I wasn't sure if I was reading it right. The idea blew me away, in spite of the lack of a gradual build-up via "friendship" stories, because it seemed so right. I still feel that way. When I first discovered Trek, shortly before the above exposure to K/S, I was trying to decide whether to make a major career change. I reacted very strongly to Kirk (I think it was Erica Jong who spoke of "the lost brother, the twin, the man who changes...") and my identification with him has always been very deep. I loved Kirk's joie de vivre, his adventurousness. Here was someone who wasn't afraid to take chances, to risk the unknown, to live, to grow, to be. And if he could, so could I. I made my decision to go back to law school and start a new career as a civil rights lawyer, and it turned out to be one of the best decisions I've ever made. So, at the risk of sounding corny or coming across like a refugee from LETTERS TO STAR TREK, I have to say that ST has had a very positive impact on my life; that it's a perfect fantasy correlate for my goals and activities in "real" life; and that I'll never be able to reduce it to Spock's cock and Kirk's ass.
From JG:When I speak of "realistic" K/S, I don't mean "realistic" in the sense T'Rhys used in her discussion of K/S vs. so-called "real" homosexual affairs in 20th century USA. I think the comparison is rather irrelevant. Kirk and Spock are not "gay," and I see no rea son why they should adopt the life-style of 20th century Hollywood just because they happen to love each other. I've noticed that many K/S fen have developed an interest in contemporary "gay" lit as an outgrowth of their interest in K/S. Or maybe it is the other way 'round; some K/S fen might more properly be called fans of homosexual fantasy in general.
[snipped]Perhaps the influence of contemporary "gay" lit is related to the preoccupation of some fans with themes of role-playing, insecurity, and jealousy. It's no wonder that contemporary gay men, given their precarious position in society, are vulnerable to insecurity, jealousy, and manipulative game-playing. But I fail to see what this has to do with Kirk and Spock. Kirk and Spock are strong, competent men who are equals, and who will certainly have enough real problems to occupy their attention than to waste their time inventing trivial non-problems.
From BPG:I enjoyed the discussion of "bondage/violence" tales, and I have one question about her hypothesis that these stories are a way to "get back at Kirk for treating women like sex objects." I agree that T'Rhys' explanation is plausible, and my question is: do these stories express feminist rage, or merely feminine pique? Are women writing them to avenge the wrongs Kirk has done their sisters, or are they writing them out of annoyance because they feel Kirk would not treat them as "sex objects"? I've noticed that a lot of women in fandom seem to look at themselves as sexually unattractive. Whether or not they are is a totally different question, and it makes about as much sense to ask it as "what is beauty?" (As Kirk himself said, "Either you believe in your self, or you don't.") In any event. Kirk displayed a marked preference for the classically "voluptuous" type on the screen. And I notice that in the typical "Mary Sue" story, it is Spock who makes the unattractive woman feel loved — never Kirk. Do fan writers write "torture" stories to punish Kirk for his sexual self-confidence — a self-confidence they don't share — and because they fear they couldn't get his attention any other way?
I realize that there are many motivations behind h/c stories and "torture" stories, but I would like to focus on the "sexual inadequacy" motive behind this desire to "cut Kirk down to size." In Saul Bellow's novel Herzog, one of the characters is a sexually attractive man with a missing leg. He is married to a not-so-attractive woman, and Herzog comments that she never would have landed him if he hadn't been a "damaged model." Do fans want to hurt and maim Kirk, to make him vulnerable and needy, because that's the only way they think some one like themselves could get to first base with him?I see the same motive at work in some of the "bondage" stories — the ones where Spock forces Kirk into bed, and Kirk winds up loving it. Perhaps the writers identify with Spock, in that he is not Kirk's typical sex object, not someone he would ordinarily feel attracted to. But once forced into bed, Kirk realizes that he's never been laid so good in his life, and happily becomes "bonded" to Spock (another form of "bondage"?) and so forth. Is the writer in effect saying to Kirk, "Look, James T., I know you wouldn't give someone like me a second glance in 'real' life, but if I could only show you what hidden charms, what banked fires, I have to offer. .. ." Are these stories a roundabout kind of wish-fulfillment, in which the author gets to hurt the man for not loving her — and them forces him to love her after all? I wish I knew.
From BPG:I think [the] problem with fan poetry doesn't stem from your in ability to understand the imagery. There is frequently precious little imagery or anything else to understand in it. Most amateur poetry is pretty dreadful. There seems to be this feeling among would-be writers, that in poetry muzzy thinking and flatulent phrases are de rigeuer. Poetry should, first, be about something specific, and it has to be tightly written, or it becomes hopeless. Read some good poetry in a decent anthology, and the difference between it and almost all Trek doggerel will become apparent immediately.
From BPG:Yes, many gays are certainly like your description, and lots of straights, too. But then there are the ones you never hear about or see, who live quiet, "happily married" lives together, and who value love and affection, not just sex. Few men have tried to write K/S, and not very successfully as far as I know. But then, how many men write general Trek? You can be sure that unless they were consciously trying to emulate women writers, their attitude and treatment would be quite different, and the crux of it wouldn't be the absence of "two-way emotionalism", Can you extrapolate how it would be different? I knew of some gays who are very much like the K/S friend/brother relationship, but not the sexual one. Does that give you a hint?
From BPG:About ST:WOK: I am thoroughly disgusted with it. I have written six pages listing all the faulty characterizations, inaccuracies, plot inconsistencies and defects of all kinds, plus several pages listing the various scenes and the places from which they were ripped off. Do you know, for example, that Spock's death scene is a direct ripoff from a movie of the 1950*s, in which a real life incident was dramatized? An early atomic physicist saved his colleagues and the surrounding area from a soft nuclear explosion by shoving the lead damper rods into the first atomic pile by hand when the mechanism failed, thereby dying of severe radiation poisoning. And that is exactly how the scene is written in the ST:WOK script — with Spock pushing lead rods into a warp-drive engine!
If I never read a fan story based on ST:WOK, I will be delighted. As it is, I haven't wanted to see another movie since I saw ST:WOK: I've been turned off of movies; I don't want to get turned off of Trek! And now, you are all going to jump on me, right? Well, please don't! I hurt enough about it already, I hate to see Trek made a travesty. And as far as getting any K/S from that movie, I don't see it. Kirk and Spock are obviously just friends who don't even see each other that often. And do you know what Harve Bennett has planned for the third movie? According to William Shatner, at the WSF meeting at Houstoncon, Harve is planning on giving Kirk a romance for a change (?!) and you can bet it isn't with Spock!Would you like to hear a juicy rumor? Bennett does indeed intend to bring Spock back as a Spockenobi  in the next movie; it's already written into the script outline that way. Of course he may yet change it, but he is riding high on the undeserved crest of his success and ST:WOK's popularity now, and probably won't, despite the negative reaction he has received from fans on this idea. Doubtless, he has every right to think that since we swallowed Spock's death and apparently loved it, we'll swallow anything. And he's probably right, too. It really makes me wonder: just how far would Bennett have to go to make most fans as disgusted as I am?
From BPG:A K/S APA: what a great idea! — if for no other reason than to be able to discuss K/S without being called a pervert, or worse. I'll confess to being an avid K/S fan. I'll read anything K/S, bad or good, even the two things I dislike the most: death stories and tackily sentimental stories.
From SF:I've been an avid reader of science fiction all my life —for decades— but I've cooled on it since discovering Trek, I am definitely NOT a media fan. In 1968, when a physicist friend of mine told me about Star Trek, I laughed at him, but he wasn't having any; he loved it and didn't mind saying so. I began to think that if he liked it, there must be SOMETHING to it. But I didn't own a TV at that time; I wouldn't have one in the house. So I read the Blish books and was amazed that such an intelligent program could ever be put on TV. But I still didn't believe it. And I really wanted to see it. My chance came some years later when a friend gave me a TV — and the first thing I tuned to was Trek. It only took a couple of episodes to get me thoroughly hooked. It only took eight or ten episodes for me to conceive independently of K/S. Then, of course, I got hooked on zines. When I saw THRUST advertised, I was fascinated. I had had no idea that someone else had thought of a sexual relationship between Kirk and Spock. I dislike heterosex porn and erotica, probably because it is so sexist, but I found that I did indeed love THRUST; I practically wore out my copy.
Since then, I've read every K/S zine, become a collector of Trek art (particularly K/S), gone to innumerable cons, illoed about 55 zines, written poems and three stories so far (Oh, if I only had more time!). My first story, "Love Slave's Song", was published in DUET III, and since then I've had dozens of requests for a sequel, the first part of which I did write, but which Doreen wished to censor. If you are curious, write and I'll tell you the whole story behind that; Doreen's editorial in DUET V was NOT accurate. (Cynthia Drake will publish my complete tale.) A lot of you said that you are [Gayle F] fans. Well, then, don't miss a new K/S zine called BRAVE NEW WORLDS, which should be ready very soon, from Linda Rossi. It has Gayle's most glorious illos to date, for which she asked me to write a story — a privilege, believe me] If any of you should come to Chicago, give me a call, and I'll give you a guided tour of the original watercolor; it is unbelievably beautiful. What a shame Gayle won't be doing zine illoing or writing anymore.
From NE:no...the idea of a tv series developed around Saavik and David doesn't exactly grab me, but then my concept of trek is too intermingled with the original characters (especially Kirk, Spock, and McCoy) to truly accept a version of trek without them. The Enterprise without the Big Three would be like a Hostess Twinkle without the cream filling.
From NE:An alternate timeline makes more sense than an alternate universe in describing K/S but I suppose the point is debatable depending on one's view of the two characters on aired trek...which leads into the other question as to whether there are K/S intimations in the episodes. Again, I guess it's all a matter of interpretation...beauty is in the eye of the be holder. Watching for and picking out various incidents is fun, harmless, and does keep us off the streets at night.
From NE:I definitely can't share your intrigue with the [[|Genderswap|Spock or Kirk-as-a-woman]] premise. That falls into the same category as death stories...YUK. Part of the beauty of K/S is the inherent masculinity of each man which each retains in the relationship. Having one of them turn into a woman just goes against my grain. Plus the fact that the only mental image I can conjure up is Nimoy in drag...and THAT certainly doesn't thrill the senses. So much of Trek is open to individual interpretation. Lean your imagination to the left and you've got K/S; lean it too far to the right and Spock, is, off making a flying leap at MarySue. Lean it backwards...well, who knows...maybe Kirk and the Horta have a go at it. While debating various issues can be stimulating, the main point is that everyone entitled to his or her own personal fantasies...no matter how kinky and weird they may be. One of my best friends in fandom is a Spock/Chapel freak; the mere thought of which has me groping for the Di-Gel. [My friend]...lost soul that she is... has a similar reaction toward K/S. And yet we somehow manage to main maintain a viable friendship in spite of these seemingly insurmountable differences. I guess it just goes to show you that, applied properly and in the right situations, it's AMAZING what a little IDIC will do!
From NE:Which brings to mind the subject of Spock's sterility. The way I see it, he is. This theory gives more support to the K/S foundation, and also eliminates that damn guilt trip to reproduce which is thrown on poor Spock so often. While I agree with you about some stories getting carried away concerning the bonding (such as Amanda doing everything but handsprings), I still prefer NIGHTVISION'S Sarek in that regard. He accepts the relation ship calmly, rationally — finding it logical due to the sterility factor which he surmises was the reason behind T'Pring's challenge. He also admits (to himself) the fact that he LIKES Jim Kirk. It was a nice touch. Amanda on the other hand has problems dealing with the discovery...going through various phases of incomprehension, ."shock, anger. Eventually she comes to terms with it simply because it's the only course of action left open to her. You have to read the novel to fully appreciate each character's feelings. It was excellently handled.
From AC:Looking through all our contributions, I was also looking for the common thread... You know, the secret? Why we're all into K/S — what the significance is, and all the denominators? I couldn't find any. Sorry. We're all as much alike as any 12 people drawn at random.
Myself, I've always had a fondness for homo-erotic fiction -- long before the K/S premise came along. Don't ask me why. Just growed that way, I guess. Mary Renault has been my favorite writer since high school. E. M. Forster is another favorite of mine. ('Want a treat? Read his Maurice.) Both writers teach good lessons about how two men might relate, and how a really good, really sensitive writer handles that. Both writers are romantic in the best, toughest sense of the word. I think the best K/S is romantic also, in the best sense. Heck, we're all soft-hearted romantics. Maybe that's the common thread.What happens between Kirk and Spock—two men, two beings, two aliens, two soldiers, two intellects -- what brings these two together against unsurmountable odds is romance. The idea of K/S is, to me, romance in its purest form, and very appealing. For someone like me who loves to read and write romantic homo-erotic fiction, K/S is a made-to-order genre, almost too good to be true.
From AC:I tried to follow your lead and see ST-WOK from a KS angle, but I just couldn't find much in there. Possibly they may have been lovers but I don't think there could have been a bond. Kirk's depression in his "home" line doesn't seem to me to have anything to do with Spock. At least not in particular. I think it's just that he can't think of that sterile apartment as home after his beloved Enterprise. I also don't think that if Jim and Spock had shared that apartment, that they would have split it in half but rather mixed their belongings and personalities. If they had been bonded, Spock would not have been first letting Jim know that he thought he made a mistake accepting promotion, this would be an old issue. The strongest indication of a KS relationship is in the farewell where Jim says about the "needs of the few" and Spock replies, "Or the one." The one he speaks of being the two of them.
[snipped]Where is the Kirk/Spock relationship at the beginning of the movie? I think as I said somewhere earlier that they aren't bonded. One reason is that Kirk doesn't know Spock isn't there until he turns to look for him. The fact that he figures it out is just an indication that he knows his Spock not that there's a bond that tells him. Also, I don't think Jim would pussy foot around so much about taking command from Spock if they were bonded. He would have been absolutely sure of Spock's feelings on the subject if they were bondmates. They could be lovers. They do have a warmer closer relation ship and are easier with each other than ever before. This could be a natural progression of their friendship though —a result of increased self awareness and maturity. If this is the case then the KS relation ship could still be in the offing. Not too definitive an opinion is it? As a general conclusion, in this time line I'd say it there is to be a lover relationship it's still in the future--after Jim and Spock are reunited. I do hope for the sake of this theory Spock doesn't come back as a telepathic shrub or in Obi-Wahn Kenobi day-glo leisurewear.
From AC:I know I'm in the minority when I say that [death stories] don't bother me at all. I like serious stories and feel that hard events progress character development and few events are harder than the death of someone you love.... I enjoy the catharsis that comes from a well done tragedy, but I do admit that nothing is worse than a badly done tragic story. It's worse than any badly done humorous or pleasant story could ever be. I do have a different view about the death of Spock in ST-TWOK. (There's a Thoreau quote that would fit here about consistency being the hobgoblin of small minds.) Where Spock's death in the movie didn't bother me personally since I don't consider it any more real than any one else's death story; it did bother me in the sense that so many will look to it as "real" trek and it will bother them. I feel Paramount and everyone connected with the Trek films have an obligation to the fandom that kept Trek alive. They should have kept their fingers off Spock.
From AC:My first KS story was Leslie Fish's "Shelter" but I wasn't shocked -- just interested. The concept had never occurred to me, but that didn't stop me from liking the story. I came to the conclusion that I liked her writing style very much and that where it didn't seem to me to be to most logical extrapolation from the aired series I couldn't say that it wasn't possible.
From AC:I too object to the women bedded down with Jim and Spock in fan fiction]], but not from jealousy or the feeling that the two of them belong together, but rather because the women are usually so one dimensional or so obviously the author's wish fulfillment that they don't seem a match for them. At best they could be a casual lay and who wants to read story after story dealing with casual sex? When you pair Jim and Spock you automatically have two strong characters who are firmly established in the reader's mind. It's hard to establish a new character and have them be as strong as either Kirk or Spock plus come up with a valid relationship all in the space of a short story. Maybe that's part of the appeal of KS.
From CD:I'm afraid I can hear Spock say to Jim "I have been and always shall be yours" and not think of KS at all. I just don't see that quote as being strong evidence for KS because it disregards the first sentence where Spock says "You are my friend." It's a wonderful scene though and love is obviously there.
From DD:Ahh, K/S, a delightful topic which still manages to surprise me by its power to captivate. My first introduction to fan literature was "Star Trek - The New Voyages". I had watched the show for years on reruns, and loved it, but with no idea of what was out there in fandom. My first reaction to the book was that a) someone else saw the same relationship between Kirk and Spock that I did which meant that maybe I wasn't crazy after all, and b) that there was apparently more of the same out there. So I went to a convention, walking in awe around the fanzine room and emerging with the regrettably now defunct "Nexus" and the short-lived but excellently done "Turbolift Review". And while I didn't know it, my fate was sealed, because in the batch of fliers I had collected willy-nilly was something which, on a more leisurely perusal at home, seemed to be to my taste. I ordered "Thrust" the following week.
It's rather like looking back on your deflowering. The first rush of joy at seeing the innocuous envelope leaning against the mailbox, ripping it open with shaking hands, dying a thousand deaths, while neighbors gawked at the Gayle F] cover before fleeing up stairs (me, not the neighbors), and that first reading. I will pass lightly over that momentous occasion, because if I continue to dwell on it I'll want a quick look at that now sadly battered but intact piece of literature, and then if I do get back to this today my fingers will be too sweaty to type. Suffice it to say I was instantly, severely addicted. It was a couple of months and a breathless reading of "Companion #1" later that I began to eye my typewriter and think 'maybe, just maybe, I could do that too.'I suppose K/S could be called an alternate universe because it was never directly stated on the show. But I got my original ideas about K/S straight (so to speak) from the episodes. The way they look at each other, the way they speak to each other - the way Kirk's voice softens and changes when he's addressing Spock as well, I'm sure you know what I mean.
From DD:I've been a Trek fan for about 6 years - had no time for TV when the series was first aired. Joined the local Trek club about 3 years ago, after reading about it in the local paper, my first Trek con was the York, Feb 1980 one. One of the zines I bought there was "Companion #2". I became a K/S fan after reading it,- hadn't really considered the idea before, but this zine was convincing, and still is one of my favourites. I prefer stories where plot and relationship are emphasized, and "clinical details" are minimal, or absent. Favourite K/S stories; "Shelter", "Poses", "End of the Hurt/Comfort Syndrome," all by Leslie Fish. "The Hustler", and "The Price," are also favourites of mine. I have recently read 2 stories that I've enjoyed almost, or as much as K/S stories. Both are by Suzan Lovett: "Trigon" - in R&R #15; and "The Web" - in R&R #17.
From DD:Yes, Spock is sterile. Given what we know about gamete formation, he can't be otherwise. Sahaj was fun, but not scientifically plausible.
From DD:Is Spock a virgin? Of course not. He has an insatiable curiosity. Why would he limit his thirst for knowledge to non-sexual matters? "The Hustler" is a good example of this attitude, has anyone found any others?
From DD:Why are most K/S stories written by women and with an emphasis on emotional involvement preceding physical?
Maybe women want the best for "Our Heroes". Casual physical gratification is easy to find, and does not require respect for one's self, or one's partner. Permanent relationships require an emotional involvement and/or a deep commitment to each other. Likely, more women have learned this.I am well aware that the casual affair is much more common. This, in itself, says something about the situation. Remember the recent movie "Making Love"? To me, that was a very sad picture of the way people live their lives.
From DD:A future sexual relationship between Kirk and Saavik? I can't see it justified. I think both of them would consider it incest. There was a recent story where Spock got involved with Kirk's daughter, I wasn't convinced then, either. Ditto for Saavik/David? NO. He's too young and immature. She'd more likely think of him as a kid brother that needs to grow up. In that situation, we could have some dandy stories, but not for our K/S zines.
From DD:Why would Sarek and Amanda object to Spock and Kirk bonding? Logical solution, etc. Spock's sterile; Sarek likely developed a strong respect for Kirk on the way to Babel; Sarek's lived with a Human for years, how can he object to his son doing the same?
Gay relationships in the future? Surely Humans, after having been exposed to innumerable variations of aliens, and their methods of reproduction, will have matured enough not to be concerned with same-sex relationships. In the future, I hope that such private matters will be considered a matter of personal taste, and nothing more.