Sunset and Evening Star

Fanfiction
Title:	Sunset and Evening Star
Author(s):	Leslie Fish
Date(s):	1980
Length:	121808 words
Genre(s):	gen
Fandom(s):	Star Trek: TOS
Relationship(s):
External Links:	AO3; FanFiction.net
Click here for related articles on Fanlore.

Sunset and Evening Star is a Star Trek: TOS story by Leslie Fish.

It was published in the print zine Fesarius #5 and is online.

The story begins about three months after a story by Sharon Emily, called 'Proof Positive' (Showcase #2, 1975) wherein Spock meets Christ.

It also references from the section of 'This Deadly Innocence' (1979) where Kirk and Spock read 'The Star' by Arthur C. Clarke, the story of the light that shone at Christ's birth.

Description from a Flyer

From a flyer for Fesarius #5:

SUNSET AND EVENING STAR by Leslie Fish, could be a novel in its own right. While on a time-travel mission to rescue ancient Roman art treasures, a sudden flare of solar radiation causes Kirk to materialize in a Rome far different from our history's [sic], where technology, social organization, and the quality of life are far beyond anything possible in this time-line... or are they? Kirk must find away home -- and the Enterprise must find a way to keep their universe from being destroyed by a mishap in time. Rich in plot and characterization and undoubtedly controversial in its conclusion, Sunset and Evening Star is the product of four years of work and is one Leslie Fish's finest efforts. Beautiful illustrations by the author include a foldout and several full-page plates.

Why It Was Written: A Challenge

This story was published as part of a two-story challenge: "What would be the effect of the ST universe if Christ were not an influence?"

The other story written for the challenge was by Theresa Holmes and called Difference.

"Sunset and Evening Star" was not just written for the challenge, but also as a direct response to what Fish felt to be a rude injection of evangelical Christianity into Star Trek fandom and fanworks, and in this case, specifically by writer and zine ed, Sharon Emily, a minister's wife who'd written Proof Positive.

In 2011, Fish wrote:

Before Sharon Emily published her "Proof Positive" (in her own 'zine, I might add), all other ST fans had carefully and politely kept religion out of ST fan-fiction; I thought it unforgivably rude for her to push it in, and this was my reply. (Heheheh. Separation of church and fandom! Otherwise -- open that door -- and any counter-argument can come through.) I suppose it must have worked; I've never seen any blatantly religious ST fanfic published since.

A 2016 comment by Fish:

That was in an earlier story, "Proof Positive", written by a "Christian" fan and published in a fanzine called, IIRC, "Sehlat's Roar". It annoyed a lot of fans because it pushed religion in what had been a politely secular fandom up until then. I was one of the more vocal critics, so the publisher challenged me and the PP author to write "duelling stories" about religion in the Star Trek (TOS) universe. "Sunset and Evening Star" was my contribution, and the readers declared it the winner. I don't recall if the losing story was ever reprinted again. I can't even recall the title now.

The Character, Agnes Day Was Based on Another Fan

Not only was "Sunset and Evening Star" written in response to Proof Positive, but the main character, "Agnes Day," was based on its author, Sharon Emily.

In 2016, Fish wrote:

You should know that this story was written as part of a challenge, where the other writer had tried to inject some rather blatant (and, in my opinion, ill-considered) Christian sermonizing into a Star Trek tale. I found her description of Jesus of Nazareth as something of an alien to be disturbing, so I wrote this story based on that assumption and showed where it could lead.

In 2023, Fish wrote:

I was annoyed at a particular fan (Agnes Day is based on her character) who had deliberately brought Christian preaching into Star Trek fandom, which had carefully avoided all mention of religion before then. It was the attitude of "entitlement" that got to me: the assumption that being "righteous" was excuse enough to ignore everyone else's wishes or previous agreements.

Art From the Print Zine: By the Author

A selection from a much bigger offering. It is used on Fanlore with permission from Leslie Fish.

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  a foldout

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Reactions and Reviews: Print Zine Era

NOTE: for a much more robust view of the complexities of some of these fan opinions, see comments at Fesarius.

1982

There is also a major new novel from Leslie Fish called "Sunset and Evening Star." I predict that this novel will cause considerable uproar in fandom. Ms Fish is not one to duck unpopular causes, and in this novel she attacks monotheism, in general, and Christianity, in particular. The brunt of the argument is carried on by two crewpersons. Dr. Agnes Day, the historian, represents the Christian viewpoint; Ellison Hawk, the archeologist, represents the secular humanist viewpoint. Whenever these two meet the debate is carried on.

Now on to the plot. About three months before the time of the novel, Spock steps through the Guardian and meets Jesus Christ. He is most impressed. (This takes place in "Proof Positive" by Sharon Emily in SHOWCASE #2). Remember this. The Enterprise goes back in time to an Easter Sunday in Rome before the Fall of the Roman Empire. Their mission: to rescue works of art and records destroyed in the Fall. Hawk and Day are in the landing party to a temple when a post-Easter service pack of Christians sack and burn the temple. The landing party beams up, but Kirk beams back a few minutes later. However, a transporter malfunction occurs, and he materializes nine feet above a Roman fish peddlers pushcart in 7 B.C.

Meanwhile, the crew tries to effect rescue. Hawk manages to determine that Kirk was displaced in time, but before they can return to 7 B.C., they must return to their own time to relieve the Knaffbein stress on the engines. When they return to their own time, it is changed. The find the Roman Empire in Space represented by the starship Invictus.

They welcome the Enterprise warmly and render all possible assistance. The Imperium is a higher civilization than the Federation, and they give the Enterprise all kinds of information about themselves and their technology. Spock, however, censors all information given in return. What if they learned that rescuing Kirk could bring their universe to an end? The Invictus entertains the main characters at a banquet where Hawk and Day argue at length. Spock sides with Day. Why? Fish makes Day's arguments sound like nonsense. Eventually Hawk deserts. fie also spills the beans, and the Enterprise is forced to depart hastily for the past followed closely by the Invictus. It seems that Kirk is the key to the change in history. As Emperor of the Roman Empire, his inventions, innovations, and policies change the course of Galactic history.

Many people will be upset by this novel. Ms Fish depicts all Christians as hysterical, bigoted, rigid, Bible as literal truth, believe as I believe or burn forever, religious fanatics. This is far from the truth. And her Roman civilization is thoroughly sanitized before comparing it to the worst of Christian cultures. Slanting the arguments so obviously do not add to their credibility. Judaism, Buddhism, and other major religious movements are mentioned, too, and they are not treated any better than Christianity.

Now, a spoiler warning! I am going to reveal the ending — something I do not normally do. If you object to this, skip the rest of this paragraph. After Kirk is rescued, he mind melds with Spock and uncovers a great secret. When Spock met Christ, Christ placed secret orders in his mind and obscured the fact that in reality Christ was an evil alien being (much like the Apollo of the TV episode, but evil) who was creating a death wish society from which souls could be harvested for some evil scheme. Kirk, of course, deprograms him. This is definitely a controversial ending.

Those of you who are not easily offended and like intellectually stimulating fan fiction will find this novel a MUST READ; however, I cannot promise that you will like it. Others will want to read it just to see what all the fuss is about. It is well-written, imaginative, iconoclastic, amusing, well-researched, etc. and the depth, the breadth, and the width of the novel are rarely seen in a work of fan fiction. And in the day of the $20 fanzine this long novel is comparatively cheap, making FESARIUS V a BEST BUY as well as a MUST READ.

1983

'Sunset and Evening Star' takes off from two points: a story by Sharon Emily, called 'Proof Positive' (Showcase 2 C.1975 O/P) wherein Spock meets Christ, and from the section of 'This Deadly Innocence' where Kirk and Spock read 'The Star' by Arthur C. Clarke, the story of the light that shone at Christ's birth. From these starting points Leslie postulates an Earth ruled continuously by Rome developing unhindered by the evils of the Dark Ages (ignoring the fact that current archeology is proving that those ages were not so dark after all.). Spaceflight develops 1,000 years early (c. 1500 A.D.). People grow up tolerant and sophisticated, freed from the trammels of religion.

The pivotal point in this change of history is Kirk, who is trapped in the past during the reign of the Emperor Octavius (Augustus) Caesar. In this timeline Kirk becomes Emperor, replacing Tiberius of evil fame (see Suetonius 'The Twelve Caesars'). Believing he is in an alternate universe, Kirk sets about improving the lot of the people and unwittingly alters his own history. The Enterprise, thrown forward in time, encounters the results of Kirk's interference; an attractive, mature, hybrid people with far advanced technology. Spock must destroy all this and reroute history to reclaim Kirk. In addition Spock has been 'taken over' by the Master (i.e. Christ) and all his mental processes are being forced into the Master's mould.

Having come this far, the reviewer is confronted with a problem; that of making some kind of pronouncement on the quality of the story, and this is most difficult. To to ease the difficulty, I have divided my thoughts into two; firstly on the style and form of the story; secondly on the believability of the argument.

Undoubtedly Leslie Fish is a writer of enormous talent. In imagination and mood, the story is very rich with the tapestry of detail so evident in 'This Deadly Innocence. The word 'powerful' still seems most applicable.

The second part of the analysis is the more difficult, and although I believe that a reviewer's persona should not intrude, I think some explanation of viewpoint here is necessary for fairness. Therefore: I am an historian in part, although not of the ancient period, and I believe in no systematised religion.

Leslie has set out to attack and destroy, not only Christianity, but all god-centred belief. Christ is 'Fleecer, milker, eater of souls'. All gods want the same thing from us; adulation, worship, mental energy, their food. Christianity marked the arrival of the 'first large scale exploitative cartel into what had previously been a small business market'. Beings are 'livestock'. Christ, in Kirk's view a renegade Organian, Melkotian or Metron, is able to dominate Spock because the Vulcan cannot resist the all-accepting Ioving that the Master appears to offer him. Only for Kirk, can he break away. I find this whole section unconvincing when we have seen Spock resist the Melkotians, the mind sifter and the weight of thousands of years of Vulcan history.

Whatever the truth of this atheistic view, it is strongly argued - too strongly - I think, for the bitterness of the tone pervades the whole, creating a recoil in the reader in proportion to the original intensity. The vehemence of the argument is carried through long and sometimes tedious 'set-piece' conversations again causing possible recoil on the reader's part.

As far as the historical facts are concerned, Leslie has undoubtedly done her homework, and it would take considerable research for a non-ancient historian to argue on a par, even if such argument were relevant to a review. However, I cannot resist one reservation, not with the content of Leslie's history but with the historical method that makes so broad an extrapolation from a single historical inversion, ignoring all the other civilisations of Earth and their potential.

Finally, from what I understand of the Roman character (somewhat inflexible and pragmatic), I cannot see that Roman philosophy would form a basis for the intellectual development Leslie outlines - roads and roublic health aren't everything.

All this is far from a 'shall I order or not decision' and all I can say is that if the subject matter is of previous interest then it's worth the investment. It is thought-provoking.

A last word - Leslie's illos are extraordinary, conveying a sense of movement and strength. Those familiar will know that they are slightly 'cartoon' in style but they glare a strong sense of the spirit, of the characters and the Spock/Christ/Kirk is chilling.

Ah, but then we come to the Fish's "Sunset and Evening Star". My only real complaint is the title. It's meaningless, innocuous, unmemorable, and unfit for the masterpiece Leslie has written.

There is one complaint I expect many people to make (though it is not one of mine) so I should mention it: there is a lot of conversation in this story. There's some very gripping action and it is plentiful, but there is more conversation and it's a 150 page novel. Don't let that bother you — once you start, you will whiz right through it instantly because you will be caught in the Fish's incredible mind. There is SO MUCH in this story! I don't know where to begin. Leslie uses the old transporter malfunction bit (to her credit, the Big E is on a time travel jaunt to ancient Rome, not using the Guardian but the method used in "Tomorrow is Yesterday". Also, Leslie acknowledges she is using a time-worn gimmick by calling the chapter Transporter Malfunction of the Month") and sends Kirk back into time to ancient Rome. The Enterprise is forced to return to the present before rescuing Kirk and finds the universe drastically changed. Rome never fell and has founded a very advanced, benevolent space confederation. Since there were no Dark Ages, space travel was developed in 1500. Meanwhile, Kirk is encountering — and falling in love with — ancient Rome, which is nothing like we in the present, with our prejudices, believe it to be. Leslie has drawn a basically accurate picture of ancient Rome (which has been emasculated by people of my profession — historians — down through the centuries, who so readily believed ancient propaganda spread by Rome's enemies); a Rome with labor unions, surgery, public service, religion, ethics (yes, ethics! A morality very similar to ours), silk-screened printing, and so much more. To present the atheist-vs.-Christian confrontation, Leslie presents us with two characters: Ellison Hawk (good ol' Harlan) and Agnes Day, a perfectly hateful character. I can see a lot of religionists getting upset with Leslie's portrayal of a devoted Christ-follower. The only thing Leslie could be attacked for in this instance is portraying a Christian in such a stereotypical manner. I can't. Having been brought up in Roman Catholicism, Agnes comes very close to many priests, nuns and lay Christians I have known. The underlying subplot is a beautiful exploration of Spock's love for Kirk. The only problem I have is Leslie's portrayal of Spock. He is much too emotional and much too "evil". I should mention that Leslie's story is meant as a sequel to Sharon Emily's "Proof Positive" in her Showcase zine, wherein Spock meets Christ and becomes a Christian. Leslie's presentation of this is that Spock is "dominated" by a powerful entity and behaves in very unpleasant, intolerant, bigoted ways. His behavior should be looked at with that in mind, but it is still so unSpockian that I'm still uncomfortable with it. All that aside, the story is magnificent. I haven't even touched half of it. This is a morality tale in the old-fashioned sense, and so some of Leslie's characters do not come off being very well fleshed out. But "Sunset and Evening Star" is such a good story (and impossible to put down) that this can be easily overlooked. Above all, this is a story where one learns and thinks constantly, a phenomenon decidedly lacking in fanfic. Leslie forces you to take a position — agreement or disagreement. And those who disagree must come away very angry.

Fan writers, by and large, have trouble thinking up interesting and believable alien sociology. The last thing I'm willing to waste my time or money on is "My Jesus is better than yours and I've got a Vulcan Master to prove it" kinds of nonsense. If you want good fan fiction on religious themes, try Fesarius V which finally came out this fall, in my opinion a story can say more of a truly religious nature by how its characters treat each other and do their jobs than any number of religious ceremonies, sermons or pious invocations of this or that god will ever provide. After you've read the stories in Fesarius V, disconnect your prejudices and judge both stories on the basis of plot, characterization, motivation and style and then give an honest judgment on which is the more truly "religious" tale.

Where 'Difference' says everybody should have a god, preferably the same one, Leslie Fish in 'Sunset and Evening Star' is all for celestial-free enterprise. Christianity laid the Empire low. Not only that, it proposes a conspiracy of truly cosmic -- or paranoid -- dimensions. Yeshua ben David, see, is this super-version of Rev. Sun Yung Moon, a Being on the same order as Apollo and Kulkukan, as was Yahweh before Him; they are like these soulsuckers who entrap humans with the Beatific Vision and occasionally instigate religious wars to skim off a load for some theocentric purpose... Her presentation of the early Empire will indeed upset notions some readers may have formed from Sunday School... a must-read for anyone whose personal beliefs, religious, atheist, or agnostic, can withstand probing.

I found the Leslie Fish story boring, precisely because of the long harangues of Ellison Hawk, and Agnes Day. Harlan Ellison is many things, but not boring.

This is the first zine story that I have abandoned, only partly read. Maybe, when I run out of other things to read, I'll go back to it.

Thanks for telling me about Fesarius 5. I enjoyed Leslie's story very much. I like these philosophical debates over dinner -- takes me back to my college days. I think she needed a clearer headed proponent for the opposition view than Agnes Day, someone who could argue more like a Jesuit. I'd be curious to hear her responding arguments.

"Evening Star" boring? I couldn't put it down — literality: The day I started reading It I was scheduled to go to an outpatient clinic for some minor surgery. I read and read all during the tests and pre-op procedures and only reluctantly agreed to leave the zine outside the operating room. I picked it up again the second I came out of surgery recovery room. "What on earth are you read???" everyone kept asking me"! You can imagine the looks when I showed them. Anyway, I thought Leslie's novella was one of the most fascinating pieces of fan fiction I've ever read, and certainly one of the most brilliant. It's definitely K/S, and the ending blew me away! It is one of the few ST fan-written political dramas where the alien culture and political situation was fully developed in its own right, and not just a backdrop for the characters. Leslie brought her own version of ancient Rome to life with such vividness, color, and humanity that I could only shake my head in wonder at her incredible mind and talent.

1984

What did I think of Sunset and Evening Star?

First of all, I predict that it's going to set off the most heated zine-story discussion since The Rack. Personally, I couldn't get very excited about it, even though I am, by most people's standards, a devoted Christian. (I have to add the qualifier since a lot of my interpretations of scripture, notably on the subject of women's rights, would be too liberal for a fundamentalist's tastes. Well, I never did care what the Moral Majority thought.)

Part of the reason was that I simply couldn't take it seriously as a story; ST principals acting flagrantly out of character always plays havoc with my "willing suspension of disbelief." (No way you can convince me Spock would ever behave so irrationally, or that Mr. Scott could be quite that contemptuous of him.) Of course, the characters' behavior is rather a moot point, since the whole story is obviously only meant to function as a vehicle from which to launch attacks upon the Christian religion, with no alternate views ever offered. (Agnes Day does not offer an alternate view; she functions as a cardboard character of religiousness whose sole purpose is to be knocked flat at every opportunity. Now, if there'd been somebody around with C.S. Lewis' eloquence ...) I did find the one sidedness distinctly unpleasant, but couldn't take any of it personally, since it soon became apparent that my religion — that which has always directed me to seek my fullest mental and physical potentials, which of times compels me to keep my Irish temper in check, which so sharpens my delight in natural spectacles that I've determined to make a career related to biological science, which moves me to make contributions to Unicef and Klanwatch and to write letters for Amnesty International— that religion does not exist in the S&ES universe. (I got the impression that it does exist in the original version of Sharon Emily's Proof Positive universe, however...)

Even an impersonal reading of Fish's arguments reminded me very much of Chariots of the Gods' attempts to "prove" the existence of ancient astronauts; the sheer volume of allegations may look impressive, but when examined individually they just don't hold up very well. At least not for me. To cite just a few examples:

p. 78: "Uh, 'He sees even the sparrows fall ...'"

"Perhaps, but does he do anything to stop the sparrow from falling?"

I should hope not, or we'd soon have a chronic overabundance of sparrows....

p. 103: "...to 'love' all folk equally — not 'respect' or 'be tolerant' or 'treat justly' ..."

p. 126: "Even the Organians have been known to produce a meddling heretic or two, as you found out on Madworld."

For me, the introduction of that execrable pro-novel into the Sunset and Evening Star universe promptly dragged the whole story down to the same level. (Not much of a transition, to tell the truth.) I finished it anyway, from force of habit — same reason why I bothered to read all of Trek to Madworld once I'd started. I'm sorry, T.J., Leslie, and whomever, but any work I finish reading, for no better reason than that, just doesn't make my Top Ten list. For whatever it's worth.

... those two blockbuster stories! They definitely had me thinking, especially the second one, by Leslie Fish.

Had he not been love bombed" (a la Rev. Moon) out of his usual reason and into religious fanaticism and blindness, it's interesting to consider that Spock might have chosen a different alternative t o go back to that time line himself, to join Kirk and be to Demas what Hephalstion was to Alexander (although, in his dark beauty, perhaps he resembles more his Persian boy?). Then that glorious imperial future could have existed. (But then we wouldn't have Star Trek. Apity.) Ifound Spock's irra¬ tional and bigoted behavior hard to accept, but of course that's the premise, that his behavior was altered by his "religious experience" and he was "not himself, Although not a Christian, I still found my faith deeply shaken by the story. Powerful writing to bring into doubt the very existenc

I was a bit disappointed that, at the end of all that brilliant research and writing and thought, we find ourselves once again back in K/S-ville, Kirk and Spock blissfully entwined in bed together (however chastely), fade to black, Greater love hath no man and all that, but still!

... My only real criticism of the story was that the drawing of the Imperial ship on page 71 looked startlingly like a television set, and the Enterprise looked like three fat sausages (and wasn't it flying upside-down?).

All in all, Ms. Fish's story left me with my mouth dry, my knees shaky, my faith shattered, and with that certain squirmy feeling in the stomach that occurs when you walk in to find the two men you love best in each other's arms. (The line that stays with me the most is "My poor hybrid Vulcan." Don't know why, but that one really got to me.) A brilliant story. (Oh yeah, and the stuff about Rome was interesting too.)

.... I'd really like to know what Sharon Emily thought of Leslie's conversion of her tale Proof Positive from a tale of loving encounter between a loving Jesus Christ and Spock, into one stating that, at that incident, Spock was actually brainwashed into mindless servitude for a greedy god. Seems to me that was quite a distance from what the original story intended ... and connotes character slander. Was this supposed to be in an alternate universe from that in Proof Positive? Or is Leslie saying, "This shows what actually happened in that tale"?

At first, I thought Fish was trying to be fair. Both the believer (Dr. Day) and the atheist (Dr. Hawk) appeared equally illogical and biased in their views of what each side was doing. But then I noticed a subtle shift in the story to make Hawk look good: It was indicated that his "hunches" were frequently correct. No such thing was said about Day, to indicate how she'd managed to get the post of Chief Historian in the first place. Wouldn't she, as ah istorian, also have encountered some accounts of the "dark side" of Christianity —the pogroms, the persecutions —and agreed with Hawk that caution could be observed? If she's that blind to history, wouldn't it have come out long in her career before this, and caused her bosses to recommend her dismissal?

I'm also a little bewildered at the circumstances which made James Kirk the factor in stopping "The Master's" plans. At one point in the story, Kirk speculated that "The Master" entrapped starved, desperate, lonely people by enslaving them with love. Yet, in another part of the story, it was stated that religion functioned as apalliative for the downtrodden masses used by the slaveowners.

I've got news for Leslie: Desperate, lonely people exist even in the most prosperous of places. Just look at the headlines when a successful, famous person (for example, Marilyn Monroe) mystifies everyone by committing suicide, because they had given up on themselves. Therefore there would still be prey for "The Master," even in a prosperous Roman Empire ....

.... There are instances in the Bible when Christ definitely didn't act the way his country's religious leaders would want a faithful Jew to act. He actually spoke to a Samaritan woman (violating the taboos of that time) and dared to call the Scribes and Pharisees hypocrites! Hardly the actions the leaders would want encouraged in the downtrodden masses, don't you think? I also don't remember reading about Him advocating filth as a state of holiness. Sure, he said, "Seek the Kingdom first — and all these will be given besides," but He also took the time to provide wine at a wedding feast —and feed the multitudes with loaves and fishes. So he didn't totally neglect the daily concerns of this world. In fact, in the story of the Last Judgment, some pretty basic questions are asked of the followers: "Did you feed the hungry? Give drink to the thirsty? Clothe the naked? Then, enter the Kingdom" Not all concerns centered on life in the next world.

I will say one thing for Leslie, though. She makes a person think. Her theories are so reasoned-out that I, with all my objections, found myself asking: "Could it be the truth?" I must also admit that the accounts of the alternate Roman empire were very enjoyable, but I think they had more going for them than just James Kirk —the voracious "Master" evidently didn't exist in that timeline at all.

...Sunset and Evening Star has got to be the best fan story I've ever read, and a standout even compared to most pro SF (ST and otherwise) I see published these days. I suspect we'll be seeing a lot of Ms. Fish on the SF scene in coming years. After ST, I, Claudius is my favorite teleshow of all time, and I'm grateful to see someone finally giving poor, maligned Livia the credit she deserves after all these (2000) years (to say nothing of Harlan ...I mean, "Ellison Hawk").

For having the inspired temerity to balance these two writers off one another in the same zine, you, the editors, have won my respect and admiration (I know whereof I speak, too: I'm a copy editor and reporter for a small chain of weekly newspapers in southeastern Massachusetts).

Both Sunset and Difference are bound to stir up much controversy in fandom. Both take a firm stand on (opposing sides of) deeply personal, metaphysical issues, ones which most people would prefer to ignore and/or take the safe middle road on (the fact that both tales are as entertaining as all heck is pure bonus). Ah, something to offend everyone!

Good luck dealing with the can of worms you've opened.

... am I so disgusted with your zine? Why did I need to wait a year and a half before I could respond in a near-constructive way? Why do I feel as if I was ripped off ... ? You owe it all to 160 pages of Sunset and Evening Star by L. Fish. While Sharon Emily's Proof Positive (from Showcase II) is not as well written as Ms. Fish's story, Emily's work is sensitive and warming, while Fish's novella is distractive, totally insensitive, and the characterizations of our Trek friends are so far off-base it's hard to recognize them. If I were Ms. Emily I'd demand an apology for corrupting her story into this degenerative piece of so-called "writing."

The way Fish has corroded a beautiful story by Emily — not to mention her ridiculous distortion of history (her not so impressive "research" notwithstanding, since I'm familiar with these books and a much wider range than she displays) — should have been unworthy of the calibre zine you seemed to be aiming for.

It's more than obvious that Ms. Fish has a personal ax to grind against Christians and their beliefs. The question is whether a Trek zine, which should support the philosophy of IDIC, is the place to do it. I really don't need to tell the editors of Fesarius that they, along with Fish, have succeeded in insulting the intelligence of a large populus of our planet — Christians. Without exception every one of my friends that read this story was disgusted with it. Not all of them were Christians, but represented many various religions. I truly hope this tells you something, part of which is that a story written in prejudice gains nothing if it is well written ....

I'm particularly astounded at Richie Robinson, who in his Final Transmission told all of us readers of his then recent conversion to Roman Catholicism, Fish's story blatantly insults a whole spectrum of Christians (since there are so many Christian denominations). Is this how Robinson shows what he thinks of his newfound faith?

...So now, what am I going to do with a zine that is mostly an insult to the ideals of Star Trek fandom and its beautiful concept of differences combining to create truth and beauty (the working words are truth and beauty)? I'm going to round file it, learning a lesson in the process — and never buy Fesarius again.

I've just finished FESARIUS V... whew! To be honest, I started out thinking it was a fair, nice zine. I enjoyed Theresa Holmes' story but wasn't drastically affected by it. Then I put the zine aside for awhile ... I picked it up again a few days ago and started reading Sunset and Evening Star ... Now, I've read Leslie Fish's work before and have been impressed by it, but this time she's outdone herself. I'm also very impressed with you for publishing such a ...controversial piece. That takes chutzpah! To say I loved the story, was moved by it, was impressed with Leslie's skills as a writer, would be an under¬ statement ! I've read ... and written ... a lot of fan fiction, and this is probably the most intelligent, well written, thought provoking piece I've ever come across.

This novella is very good, with remarkable potential. Leslie took an oft-used story line and built a rich plot that is thoroughly engrossing. The dialogues rival Heinlein's neo-Socratic debates; the plot and sub-plot interact perfectly; there is a perfect balance of humor and seriousness. Her basic concept, that Christ and Christianity are a malevolent perversion of human history, is very brave and well supported within the story.

There are two areas in which the story suffers, however. (Sorry if I sound pedantic — habit, I guess.) Agnes Day is ill-conceived and worse executed; she is a one-dimensional character in a world of real personalities. She is flat, as E.M. Forster defines it: "constructed round a single quality or ideal ..." Leslie goes too far in telling us to hate Agnes —page 146, for example: " Day rolled her eyes and absently fluffed her curls." That's a signal, saying, BITCH! PRISSY LITTLE GOODY-GOODY!

....If Agnes Day (even her name, Agnus Dei, is too limiting) is dull and implausible, then that which she represents (Christian piety) is also reduced to an uninteresting aberration. That is not the case, or Leslie could not write a whole novel about the dangers of Christian religiosity. Sunset and Evening Star goes beyond mere black versus white, angels versus devils, but Agnes simplifies a complexly rich conflict of values.

My other complaint with Leslie's story concerns the final scene between Kirk and Spock. The mind-meld is beautifully described; it's afterwards that there is a sense of unreality. I'm no lover of the male-macho bit, but it seems out of character for two such constrained men to lie in each other's arms and cry. And to have Kirk saying, "Don't go off alone for tonight. You can stay here ... I know there is a whole K/S homosexual tradition, and more power to those who profess it, but it's not organic to this story. If Leslie wants to write a K/S story, fine, but it disrupts this novel to tack a hint of K/S onto the end.

On a different note: Why do time travel stories always focus on Imperial Rome?

Why not ancient Greece? Can't you just see Spock debating with Socrates? Kirk matching wits with Odysseus? Or Star Trek ala Chaucer Whanna that Starre Fleet wytb ittse shyppes sweete ....

FESARIUS V was very interesting, particularly the story by Leslie Fish, She's an excellent writer. Having all the traditional concepts of God and Christ turned inside out certainly held my attention. In fact, I found it quite disturbing — as I suppose she intended. One inconsistency still bothers me. Once the characters had decided that all religion had been and is a scam made up by predatory advanced aliens, why were Spock and particularly the little scientist who wanted to be a Roman so careful to perform the captain of the Roman spaceship's religious rite after his death? I f the theory about the predatory aliens is correct, then performing religious rite is playing into their hands, At the very least, it's not doing the Roman Captain any good.

Sunset and Evening Star by Leslie Fish is a very original and innovative story! The story (or should I say novel) flows along well with an excellent plot. The supporting characters are intriguing and well developed if nothing else. The overall story is first rate; however, there are some minor points which need mentioning ...

The maturity level of some of the main characters were more juvenile than that of middle-aged men with years of experience in dealing with the wonders and dangers of space. They seem more black and white than color ... as I said, a minor point. The only really disappointing portion of the story was the ending! A fannish gesture perhaps to the juvenile rumor about the Kirk/Spock relation, which in itself is well and good —but at least build up to it in the story! Needless to say, I found the ending tacky and idiotic, a grave disappointment. A rewrite of the ending would raise the story's effectiveness — if it were tied in with the rest of the story. Overall, I rate Sunset and Evening Star as only GOOD. It could have been better! Very close to professional, although somewhat juvenile at times —it depends on the readers Leslie wants.

... Even with its disappointing end, Leslie's story has innovation and sparkle to it. Definitely a cut above the old "time travel to beat the baddies." The challenge in presenting Christianity and its rise/spread as possible "super alien" manipulation was more intriguing than chasing Klingons and Romulans with some cameos by the Celts. So much for my two cents!

What can I say about Leslie Fish's Sunset and Evening Star? That story was a rare, REAL treat. It entertained me AND got me thinking deeply. I never figured Ancient Rome was as bad as I was "taught" it was. It never ceases to amaze me how a few fanatics can twist our perception of history around. Leslie's characterizations were very sound so well done that I wanted to strangle both dear ol' Spock (!) and Agnes Day. She gratingly reminded me of an extremely fanatical Christian roommate I once had ... Heavy duty thinking material, that story. Thanks, Leslie.

The cover was gorgeous and so was Leslie Fish's story! (Nifty article too.) I think it's the best SF/ST story that I've seen all year! Since, having such a fantastic piece, I must congratulate you on presenting it so attractively.

That explanation of Leslie Fish and The Weight and how she used the story to move message struck a true note, for in my own case, it explains why I never read all the series. [snipped] ... Anyway, if Leslie was suckering us into reading her political position with this story, she failed in my case, became I could not see these people as characters from Star Trek, and I finally gave up. She did get it in the story in Fesarius -- I enjoyed that one tremendously, despite the Harlan Ellison clone, even though her views don't precisely match mine.

Reactions and Reviews: Online Era (Fanfiction.net)

The story was posted online in 2011 at Fanfiction.net.

2011

Best piece of work I've read. Ever, makes me afraid of Christianity now though. :O

Interesting, you never hear a high school history teacher telling stories like this or never read about this in your history book... At least I didn't...People just don't think about HOW Christianity became so "popular"... (Please Anyone, don't take this as an offense...It's not meant to be one.)

Anyway, keep up please, you made me curious. :)

[...]

I might be cruel but please someone shoot Miss Day. She's so irritating...xD

[...]

Oh my god,this last three chapters left me speechless! it was awesome, all the actions and then finally finding Jim oh god!although i must confess Spock gave me the creeps sometimes speaking of the 'the Master' like that,i really hope he will come to his senses... though he seemed normal (spockish) in the last few chaps... oh and i'd have been disappointed in you if you didn't put in an "I'm a doctor not a..." line from Bones ;) I'm so fascinated by your style of writing, you can keep them easily in character and still the whole story has this good historical novel/book feeling (oh i love so much this alternate universe,somewhere deep inside i hoped you will find a way to save it) and it's so interesting just to think about this, how it was in the old times and what might happen if we could change just a little event...

Anyway this was a very good reading so far and can wait for the next chapter! I wanted to ask why did you submit this this with M rating? I think this is at most T rated... but well, maybe i'm wrong... oh and one more question, how many chapter till the end? Hopefully a lot xD

have a great day.

[...]

Wow, again. I just found chapter 18, and enjoyed it much-ly. I was surprised by your ending (and good fiction should exercise our range of emotional responses so that is Ok) but impressed overall. Your talent for telling a good story seems well polished, I will take the time to read more of your work in hope of further excitement.

I enjoyed mightily the aspect of the "historical fiction" feel to this work and as I have previously declared a love for the history of the ancient world (and indeed all human history and development) you will have to forgive my fangirl squeals for appreciation of your list of good reads at the end of your tale (well done).

Of course, the old adage concerning the fact that the victors (of any conflict) get to record "history" and broadcast their version of events should temper our desire to believe one thing over another in any field of endeavour. What is considered popular thought or historically correct does of course change due to further evidence for one theory or another being considered by different generations. Thank you for making a strong note of that in your storyline.

I enjoyed most of all in this 18th chapter your goodly mentioning of things past in ST TOS and TAS canon (the crew of the Enterprise certainly has witnessed a lot of fantastic social engineering on their travels). But most of all I enjoyed what seemed to me to be your faithful recreation of the familiar TOS characters. Throughout the entire story this is true and I thought the entire thing to be a wonderful addition to Star Trek fan fiction.

Thank you so very much for writing and sharing such an excellent read. It really is one of my favourite to date and I will enjoy re-reading it many times, no doubt. Well done.

I quite like your approach to religion (even if I find it a bit overzealous). One small remark - pogrom is not an Yddish but originally a Russian word, deriving from the verb 'громить' mening 'to smash', 'to demolish' and the original purpose of pogroms was not to convert but to destroy. The word was adopted in other languages after mob attacks (pogroms) on Jewish settlements in 19th century Russia. Good luck with the story!

Long chapters. Amazing story line with the character's personal intact. What more can a Star Trek fan ask for?

Reading through this slowly, it's a very interesting well thoguht out and unique story and i'm enjoying it.

This story is so interesting! And you seem to really know your history too.

Yah, use a bigger stick, I say. Beat some sense into, oops, did I type that out loud... Yes, IDIC, be cool. Think calm thoughts...

Wow, I love the ancient world and I love Star Trek fan fiction, so this is going to be so good. Just read your essays of the caesars to spin your mind. Or any essays from the ancient period, heaps were published and survive to this day to give a true glimpse of times long past but not forgotten. Society is fascinating, give it a go everyone... City life is complex, no matter when it took place, times past do not mean times simple.

Science fiction demands not only some science, but the premise of "what if". SF can mean speculative fiction as well. This story strikes me on both happy buttons, so let her rip, I'm just gonna burn through all the chapters on offer and speed read for a while, I will not comment chapter by chapter because I am on a timed dial-up connection that is so slow... Sorry if this attitude does not help fan your "review" numbers. See you later.

Thank you for writing and sharing such an interesting story.

[...]

Wow. Double wow. I am super impressed and want to read it all again. Wow. This is the best short story on this fan fiction thingy that I have ever read (but I did mention my personal bias for historical interest...) and I read a lot.

Thank you so much for all of your hard work so far, this has been fascinating and an excellent read. Thank you for writing and sharing such an interesting story.

2012

This was an okay chapter. I loved that Kirk's sudden appearance wasn't any big deal and led to a minor court case. That was all too amusing and your OCs are nicely fleshed out but. This was all negated by the bath house scene. I didn't mind the attack religion, my religion in fact, but the tone. The whole spiel was preachy which made it a chore to read and slightly annoying. Other than that middle section, I loved this and can't wait to see Kirk as a stable boy.

[...]

Why do you have to make the christian a raving bitch. I swear, I want to punch her. Spock felt a little occ, I can't quite put my finger on it. What happened to good old Bones, no Star Trek story is complete without him?

[...]

Another preachy chapter but I think you meant it to be deliberate this time. Poor Kirk, having to deal with those priest. I really hope Nitidus gets his just deserts, he's a brat. Kirk was occ, too quick to anger and be overwhelmed. On another note, I love Nitidus' mom. She is awesome and fiery.

[...]

Day is once again a bitch, Hawk is only slightly more sympathetic, but she is right to be paranoid. The Roman Empire was scary as shit, especially their military. Bones was here only in appearance, his few lines of dialogue did not sound like him in the least.

[...]

I liked this chapter alot. I feel sorry for the gods, being starved of belief. It reminds me of Small Gods by Terry Pratchett and the poor small gods themselves. Kirk believing because Spock believes is adorable. The world you have created is interesting, I find myself wanting to know where the gods have gone if what Kirk thinks is true.

[...]

Now this was a good chapter. The Imperials scare me, are they suppose to be that way? They are too perfect, makes them creepy. Poor Spock and I almost manged to feel sorry for Day, a testament to the good writing. Yay Bones, he is amazing. Scotty was nice, too bad he didn't get much of a role. Looking forward to Kirk in the next chapter, his chapters are fun.

[...]

I like Kirk's chapters the most, Im a sucker for time travel. There was quite a lot of info to take in but story didn't end up getting bogged down. I loved the image of Kirk gossiping with these old ladies.

2013

I so love this story and that there is a great possibility that Kirk and Spock come together I find it fantastic that you put so many history facts in this story and cant wait to read more when you one day come back here and finish this story! Its also great that where Kirk where sendet per acident it was a different time and world as bevor in his own timeline universum, so something had to be there already and i really hope that the Invictus was not destroyed but sendet back to there own time! Poor spock this crazy imposer who did this to him, good that kirk coud help him and will stay at his side to help him please come back and write more!

Reactions and Reviews: Online Era (Archive of Our Own)

The story was posted online in 2012 at Archive of Our Own.

2011

I am at a loss of words to tell you how awesome your tale is. It is not only a well written Star Trek fiction, but also and above all a clever philosophical analysis of religious consciousness, without hubris and poses. Before hanging on some god, we need to understand what we can do by ourselves and to learn to grow our garden.

To tell the truth, such an idea does not even eliminate the very possibility of experiences in which we go beyond ourselves. It helps us, however, to choose only "gods" that do not require us to kneel in their presence."True love can exist only between equals", indeed.

[Leslie Fish]: Thanks, Shi. Glad you enjoyed. As mentioned in the intro, this story was written as part of a challenge after I complained about a ST fan injecting blatant Christian preaching (some of which I quoted) into the ST universe. After I'd argued the point for months in ST fanzine letter-columns, the fanzine editor gave me and the other author a writing challenge, and this was my entry. I tried to stick rigidly within the the ST:TOS universe, referring to the various "superior beings" in the series who had turned out to be only more advanced aliens. Why not, I wondered, take the "advanced aliens" theory a step further? I noted, too, that the TOS "gods" were judged, in the series, by how useful or damaging they were to humans and other intelligent beings -- and chose to take that another step further too. This is the result, and I'm glad you liked it. Thanks.

Oh goodness. Not only was this a gorgeous read, with wonderful world-building and intriguing plot points, but it was also a calm, rational, non-biased argument against the type of religions that Christianity not only became, but was at the beginning, without resorting to arrogant atheistic arguments. The gods were real, and every bit as terrible as they should have been. Religion became ridiculous not because there were no higher powers-- quite the contrary!-- but because as free beings, slavery to others, no matter how gilded a cage one is kept in, is unjust, and anathema to our natures. Why shouldn't the gods exist? Why should they automatically be worthy of worship if they did? And if there are no higher powers, let us be as free as we would be if there were! Every argument you made through the Romans was well thought-out, rational, and, as a Mr. Spock whose mind was no longer prey to the manipulation of his weaknesses would say, infinitely logical.

I found Proof Positive on the web, and had to force myself to keep reading it. As a non-religious person, I was repulsed. Suddenly Spock is shown the light, the way to eternal salvation, and doesn't question it! How out of character! But the real reason for his instant conversion is explained here, and how sick a reason--and how true, even in this supposed new era of enlightenment and science. The message is as true and necessary today as it was when this was first published. You demonstrated that there were rational people in the world, who refused to stand by and watch religion enter into realms it didn’t belong. What use would God’s children, formed in his image, have for space travel anyway? To seek out new life, vastly different from their own, and therefore inferior? I’ve seen little evidence of widespread Christianity in Star Trek; what, then, was it doing in Trek fiction? You effectively quashed that with this work. Well done.

To make a long comment short, thank you. It was a delight to read, and think about when I was doing other things, and I will recommend it to anyone I think would read it.

[Leslie Fish]: Thank you, Sketch. Yes, this story was written as a reply to a challenge, after my annoyed comments about "Proof Positive" raised a long letter-war. I took the opportunity to consolidate all the ideas about "gods" that had been floating around for some time in the Star Trek universe, in the light of what I knew about real Roman history, law, customs and religion -- and it seems to have worked. I forget who wrote the opposing story, but I must admit that I never saw it again, so I guess the fans judged me the winner of the challenge.

2012

Ow, it really hurt to read this whole thing. It's painfully beautiful and marvelous because I was torn apart from being a Christian and a logically-sane reader at the same time while I was reading. Perhaps this is why people separate literature from religion. It made me look at my beliefs in a different point of view, and I do say, it was foolish for the author of "Proof Positive" to link the religion and TOS. Very foolish.

Long story short- I'm Christian and I fucking love this. Contradictory, but fuck the rules.

[Leslie Fish]: Hi, Ocarin. Thanks greatly for your comments. I forget who Spock was quoting when he said "The unexamined life is not worth living", but that could apply to religions, too. Any faith that can't stand up to examination and questioning is... of questionable value. Assuming, as ST-TOS does, that a lot of super-human beings have posed as gods -- even adapting to local mythology to get themselves worshipped -- a really valid religion would have to study and judge such beings and, if necessary, go beyond them. For example present-day NeoPagans deliberately go shopping in the marketplace of local gods, coolly judging them and deciding which ones to "buy" into; the Unitarian Universalists postulate an independent cosmic being beyond these, but assume it's as vast, complex, alien and -- above all -- indifferent as the universe itself, having no need of human worship to sustain it, and therefore taking no more than academic interest in the doings of one breed of mammal on the third planet of a 4th-rate sun in a 3rd-rate galaxy. The idea is that any "god" who takes active interest in humans is necessarily small, local, and definitely needs our "faith"; therefore, we'd better be careful just what we trade our faith for. The original Jesus, as described in the New Testament, actually looks pretty good by this standard. It's only the mythology grown up around him since that allows "blind faith" and its attendant evils to creep in.

Somebody told me about this story in 1986 at a con, while we were standing at a zine seller's table with the long table cloth and the K/S stacked in paper form underneath...discs costing more and not being as trusted. Being a dealer then meant having a few copies as inspection and going to the spare room wardrobe at home after the con to post pages of A4 to people. The whole thing was run on trust, fans met up yearly and if a page was missing or unreadable from a zine you'd correspond with the writer/seller long after because you'd become such good friends. It was this actual story that we couldn't find, and to read it here is very greatly welcome. Thanks for your hard work in getting it into text form across the great technology divide that we now take for granted. May your data-solids never be inadvertently used as coasters LOL and always always feel courageous enough to put forty quatloos on the newcomer. Regards, Liz.

Loved it~ Thank you for writing this. I am going to have to recommend this to a friend of mine, though she does not often read Star Trek fiction. This was wonderful. ^^ I am definitely going to have to keep a copy of this in my personal library. It would be a shame if this somehow disappeared. I loved the characterizations and the conflict, and way too many other things to even list. Thank you very much.

2013

this was amazing and I thourughly enjoyed reading it! (both as a star trek fan and an Ancient History student ;D) VERY well done- and I thank you for it

oh. mai. gawdliness. that was... incredible!

i just... damn near stunned speechless!!

this is just... so many different thoughts flying through my head. at the end, I couldn't tell which i wanted more... for things to end as it did, or for jim to have stayed and made those changes. and then the theories, presumed untrue due to the whole alien schtick, but still.... in a way, possible.

mind = blown

love it!

2016

I honestly believe this is among the best written stories I've ever read in my entire life. As someone who has read at least 750 stories a year for the past 16 years, that's a very serious statement for me.

You've created such a magnificent entanglement of fact and fiction, while maintaining the fundamental properties of the star trek universe that I am truly astounded.

I cannot competently translate the extent of my awe into words, so I hope this attempt will serve well enough.

Thank you for bringing this story into the world.

This was really WOW. And very interesting. I stopped to read the "Proof Positive", so I could better see...where your work around was going and why. Yeah, Spock would not have become the unquestioning "PP" Spock, unless he was severely compromised! I am intrigued with how you kept the TOS episodes tied in, with the terrific historical research. Thank you for citing your sources. I have over my experiences come to a faith in God, a trust, that there definitely is a lot more going on and this is supported by physics and experiences, but I am not about to go batshit and claim humans haven't slanted, exploited, abused, and so much worse! what the Master really taught. His brother James yanked everything back hard to intolerance of non-jews; Peter caved to him under pressure despite his own visions and experience otherwise. James demanded Paul come to him, demanded his obedience in exchange for continued credibility, then humiliated him to make an example of him. Paul was not willing to cause the fracture of the nascent church over this rift, though he did throw some bullshit flags. (And while John the Presbyter, wrote some great lines, I am appalled by Revelations written as propaganda, and there it is in every Bible. ) Oops, I opine much too off topic.

I love ST for its ideation of the best humanity has within and potential for, of exploring what love, duty, and honor require for the better things to have a chance of happening. You did a great job of comparing and contrasting that with what can and does happen when dominance and power accrues-using various excuses. You made each character consistent within their parameters, so each truly had a unique personality and voice. You skillfully showed how human weakness happens, with the nature, nurture, and sometimes opportunity and bad shit happens too, scenarios. I loved how you stood the perspective on its side, then shoved it sideways too, like you did the time travel universe. The arguments were well done. I enjoyed this thorough, detailed, novel long fic. And love did win out, after all! Too Cool! Thank you.

2017

This story was delightful. It is everything that does it for me--history, philosophy, politics, solid writing, solid characterization. I admit that I came into this completely blind, knowing nothing of the prequel and nothing of the summary, so at first I was wondering if this was some weird ham-handed pro-Christian thing, showing that even Spock can be Saved etc etc, but that did not jive with the perceptiveness and quality of the rest of the work, so I kept reading, and roundabout halfway through the story I was sure this was going somewhere good. And it even hits the purely self-indulgent things that do it for me, as well, that I cannot hide behind a scholarly interest or some high-minded pretense. It's got confessions of love, sudden and reeling realizations, a slow burn, tears, all this compatible and believable within the context of the characters. I'm especially a sucker for heavily symbolism-laden, metaphysical mental encounters, and the mind meld sets up that possibility perfectly. It's something of the Jungian in my soul.

I am so glad all these old-school stories are preserved online. I'm too young to have experienced the zine age--I came of age reading my naughty fanfiction online, on the family computer and on dial-up--but it seems that it was rich. There's more genuine wisdom here than in most 'classical' novels.

In short, a stunning work. Thank you so much for writing it.

2020

I've had this story open in my tabs for months, and I finally got around to reading it. Damn, this was such an epic! I really, really enjoyed it. There's something about works which include social commentary, and in this case extreme specific fandom commentary, that I love. Also, I can't help but see how fanaticism is something we are still dealing with today, which makes this fic more relevant than ever. Reading OG TOS fic is a treat, and the fact you posted your work online is so insanely generous. Thank you so much!! <3

2018

I understand that this story is a reply to another story, and that's why you have Spock revering Jesus and being far from his usual logical self. It hurts my heart, though, so see my favorite cool, logical scientist, the man who told Kirk at the end of "Return of the Archons" that he had no use for the metaphysical and preferred "the concrete, the graspable, the provable" acting like a ninny.

[Leslie Fish]: Yes, I wrote SAES in reply to another Trek story ("Proof Positive") where Spock met Jesus and was Convinced, so I was obliged to detail the plot of that tale in my story. What I noted in PP was that the psychic contact Spock got with "Jesus" sounded very much like a psychic attack, so I treated it as such. Spock didn't become such a ninny of his own free will!

2021

I don't usually read fic for TOS, but I'm immensely glad I took a chance on this one. The premise fascinates, and the commentary presented in the form of the alternate universe, political, religious, and social, provides quite a bit of food for thought. As well, your voices for the various characters - both simply as they are, and the dialects as written in their speech - are much as I recall from what I have watched of TOS (which is not as much as I'd like).

There's a whole lot more I'm sure I could say, and if I'd read this earlier in the day, I likely would have. As it stands, I may well come back and re-read this again, and most certainly will put this in my rec list. As well as likely trying to locate copies of the books you've mentioned in your bibliography (and thank you for that, as I was already certain that quite a bit of research went into this, and was hoping I'd be able to locate the original sources myself).

This is my favourite Star Trek fic ever, and I think that back in the day it kinda made me love Trek as a whole even more... Star Trek is so complex that allows us fans to freely discuss and enjoy such dilemmas as these.... And I'm totally here for it. Thank you for this.

2023

YOU ARE SUCH A MASTERFUL WRITER because the only other character I have hated more than Agnes, was Kai Winn and mayhaps the popes of the past but they were real, they lived, and they had a very direct impact on the world unlike Agnes or Kai Winn.

But ooooh boi I remember being raving mad at the stupidity, the short sightedness, the audacity, the willful ignorance, the lack of self awareness or reflection even after she'd jeopardized something her very own Gods had worked since the start of time to defeat, not to mention the disaster she nearly wrought upon Bajor and Bajorans, the CASTE system she nearly succeeded at bringing back and good god, at the time, I wanted so deeply to strangle her. Because how could she be so blind. How could she use that faith, the faith she held on to in war camps as a symbol of hope, to wrought such pain and suffering on others? How could she use it to justify the deeds she's done, all in the name of the prophets who'd never even bothered to speak with her before well, the emissary?

The cruelty she inflicted in the name of religion and the prophets, was unjustifiable. And her failures as a person was no doubt deepened by her denial of them, the shield of religion so conveniently at hand.

The same is happening here with Agnes. I assume. She looks at all this suffering, there is concrete proof provided to her by her colleague on how the Christian church set back Rome and a multitude of other countries and civilizations by decades, centuries, if not millennia etc. Mayan book burnings. In less than three centuries, the mayan people have had their birthright to language taken, stolen by them in the name of a cruel and capricious god. She sees this destruction, the burnings of men and women alike, in real time. The chaos, the pain, the fear. The lack of free speech. And she sees it as holy. Just the inevitable result of cleansing. She sees it as sad, but expected when dealing with a *barbaric culture*. And she prays over the body of a dead woman, who was murdered by these very priests. She nutters a Christian prayer, when this woman's death was a result of Christians invading HER country and ripping away her birth rights. And when Hawks is rightfully enraged, she looks down on him for his outburst whilst justifying such massacres in the name of God. Because anything goes. As long as it's for God. No self reflection needed. As long as you're holy. She disgusts me and she scares me because I have met people just like her.

ITS JUST it's just so infuriating.

Thank you for this beautiful introductory chapter and the masterful writing it contains. What else can I say about it, that hasn't already been said? It's gorgeous, it's evocative, it's clever and the sheer amount of effort and research you've done for this story shows. I cant wait to finish the rest of it and if you don't mind me asking - did you ever get an explanation as to how a christian could watch the entirety of star trek, what with the 'we've evolved out of Gods, grown out of our use for them and science has simply continued developing, with or without a need foe their existences' (HEAVILY paraphrasing here) or Kirk being the metaphorical serpent, leading a whole group of people (aliens) out of Eden (constructed paradise kept this species ignorant and stunted their ability to grow as a civilization), causing them to ask questions, explore, seek out the very human? (Alien?) pleasures of the body etc, and think WOWWWWW perfect place to preach Christianity.