K/S & K.S. (Kindred Spirits)/Issues 15-16

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K/S & K.S. (Kindred Spirits) Issues
Issues 001-002 Issues 003-004 Issues 005-006 Issues 007-008 Issues 009-010 Issues 011-012 Issues 013-014 Issues 015-016 Issues 017-018 Issues 019-020 Issues 021-054
Title: K/S & K.S. (Kindred Spirits)
Editor(s): Central Mailers: BH (#1-#12), NS (#13-), DM (1988), LB (1993), BA (1997-1998)
Type: APA, letterzine
Date(s): 1982 until at least 1998 (as print), however, it also moved online in 1996 to become K/S Circle
Frequency: supposedly every two months but was more erratic than that
Medium: print
Fandom: Star Trek: TOS
Language: English
External Links:
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K/S & K.S. (Kindred Spirits) is a Kirk/Spock slash apazine.

There were 54 issues published between 1982 and 1998.

Issue 15

K/S & K.S. (Kindred Spirits) 15 was published in August 1985 contains 79 pages. The deadline for the next issue was September 15, 1985.

cover of the issue #15

NLS is the central mailer.

There are three new members (SS, PF, T'P), and one member (GD) has dropped out.

This issue has 14 tribs by an unknown number of members.

The tribs: LF (Lavender Diversity #8), PF (Dear Ladies), TJK (Dragon's Lair #15, formally And in this Corner...), DCL (Perpetually Amazed), T'P (The Paws That Obsesses #1), DEM (Zute's Identical Twin Sister), CKH (Secat Traces #2), JG (Unity of Opposites), AB (Tail Recursives), MSVD (Maida's Moments #2), NLS (Ramblings), BPG (Ad Astra #9), SS (Starsailing with Sandy), SBS (Ears Only #11)

Fanworks and other:

From T'P:

Regarding your question, "Why K/S?" I don't know if it's been written up anywhere, but at Norwescon 7 (Mar. '84) Joanna Russ gave a one-woman panel on K/S, the first time I'd heard it discussed so publicly. Her theory (as nearly as I can recall it) was that heterosexual relationships for K or S weren't as emotionally satisfying because of all the culturally conditioned emotional baggage we carry about male/female relationships in terms of roles, equality, needs, expectations, etc. And female/female relationships wouldn't satisfy us because our cultural "baggage" wouldn't allow us to accept women as heroes or individuals worthy of our love and admiration. She then tried listing the characteristics that K & S each brought to the relationship. Her conclusion: Spock is a woman! By that she meant that he, as a Vulcan, possesses many of the psychological and physiological traits that are traditionally considered feminine in our culture. Examples: he represses his emotions, particular anger, hostility, agression; he prefers to follow rather than lead, advise rather than direct; he avoids physical violence, preferring intellectual approaches to problem solving; his body movements/posture is reserved, stiff, inhibited; he is a virgin; his sexuality is cyclical; he is driven by biological urges (to have a baby? Biology=Destiny?). She had many more, which I can't remember, but I think you get the idea. Her theory was that these "feminine" traits allowed the female reader to identify with Spock in a relationship based on an equality which would be impossible between a male and female. It's an interesting theory, altho I'm not sure I buy it completely. For one thing I was able to come up with quite a few "masculine" traits for S and "feminine" traits for K as well.

And I'm not sure that most female readers necessarily "identify" with S, even though K is the more traditionally masculine character. What do you think? And if anyone has seen this talk written up anywhere, I'd love to see it, since my memory isn't perfect, and I wasn't prepared to take notes.

Russ also mentioned that both Shatner and Nimoy had seen some K/S material, and that Shatner was amused, but Nimoy was quite upset about it. Supposedly at one point he told his secretary that he was going try to put a stop to it, but she convinced him he shouldn't; apparently she's a big K/S fan.

Russ also mentioned hurt/comfort stories by way of general introduction to K/S, saying they had become so formularized as to become targets for satire. She mentioned one story in which one of the characters hit the other over the head with a shovel, then immediately dropped to his side saying, "I just wanted to comfort you!" She also mentioned that she has written some K/S, which was published in fanzines under a pseudonym. Anybody know anything about that?
From SBS:
I've sworn off campaigns this time around: I flat out refuse to get upset about anything I read/hear andI absolutely won't write any letters/sign any petitions to protest anything. (What I'll do with the time/energy this will save me I haven't decided. Bail out the Atlantic Ocean? Discover a cure for paper cuts? Balance my check book? The possibilities are endless.)
From SBS:
Interesting idea that some people use Trek to escape dissatisfaction with their mundane lives. If a large part of fandom is already unhappy/tense/irritated over something in he real world that might account for the extreme touchiness and speed to take offense that crops up so often. Is half of fandom hobbling around on sore toes? Or is someone broadcasting subsonic sound waves?
From SBS:
Whatever bad things you'd heard about the movie Dune, I assure you they weren't bad enough. I was so upset by the utter awfulness of that movie that I wrote a full page diatribe against it. (Fortunately for you all, sticking it through the other APA cooled me down enough so I won't run it here.) Actually, I've seen relatively little comment about Dune — I guess most people consider it beneath their notice. Harlan Ellison set out to review it in last months F&SF, but instead spent the entire column rambling about its pre-filming history. (Maybe it's just because I'm not a fan of his, but most of it came across as name-dropping and See How In The Know I Am.) I'm considering writing a complaint letter about his column — he's only had the job for about six months, but he's already missed two deadlines, and he might as well have missed this one. It hard enough for a monthly mag to provide reviews of movies quickly enough for them to be of use to the reader (that is, before they've been taken out of the theaters) when the columnist is doing his job properly.
From SBS:
About the editor being obliged to print a finished illo unless she has a darn good excuse: is flat out thinking the artwork isn't good enough a valid one? It might be awkward to use, but there are cases where I wish the editor had employed it. Normally I treat my zines with extravagant TLC and wouldn't dream of deliberately defacing them, but I made an exception recently. There's a story I absolutely love (and re-read frequently) that has an inset illo that I find offensively ugly. Not only are the figures misshapen but they're drawn with multiple rough lines that make it look like their skin is peeling off. Every time I got to that page it broke the spell of the story as effectively as a kick in the gut. Finally I decided I'd suffered long enough and painted the whole illo out. The artist would be offended if she knew and the resale value of the zine has doubtless been destroyed but for me the worth of my zines lies in the pleasure they give me (and I never can bring myself to part with any of my collection anyway.)
From SBS:
I think you're right that turning this APA into some sort of ultra-secret cabal would be a shame. [snipped] What you've said about the "private" APAs you know of makes them seem like those secret clubs young girls form, where you get together to giggle and gossip about non-members and whose whole purpose is to allow the "ins"to feel superior to the "outs". Isn't the objeot of this APA to bring people together to disouss their common interests rather than to further divide our sub-set of a fraction of a sub-group?
From SBS:
You may consider these zines to be "personal correspondence" but they are obviously less private than true letters. Consider, I'll be sending in 30 copies of this zine. Now, assuming that no one drops out between 14 & 15, I do know who 22 copies are "addressed" to, but the other eight will eventually go to someone —anyone, in fact, who sends in a few bucks to join. And the "circulation" doesn't stop there — members show their copies to Trek friends (I find it very hard to believe I'm the only one who's done that) and, regrettably, someone(s) seen fit to sell her copies openly at cons, to any passerby. In light of that, it's pretty hard to keep a straight face while claiming an APA is a private letter.
From SBS:
I am disturbed, [BPG], by your description of mafia-like tactics being used by fans against fans. I know there are some unbalanced individuals in Trekdom but it's hard to believe there are so many and that things have gotten to those extremes.
From BPG:
In re your ct. to [DL], it is not just one or two bad apples; it is a situation endemic to fandom (read my comment in the next NTS, if she prints my letter). And don't be so quick to condemn the "bad apples" to obscurity, since a couple may be your friends. If you ever come to Chicago, I could show you some letters from a few that would horrify you. And yes, artists and editors ARE working "at such cross purposes". You shouldr ead my comments in aprevious APA, which is what [DL] was replying to originally. I can give you more specific details in a personal letter, if you'd like, and a few names to avoid like the plague. You have not been illoing as long as I, and you have been lucky so far to avoid that kind of hassle. Also, you illo for your friends 'zines, right?? That certainly helps!! I normally illo for anyone, including fans I have never met, and sometimes they are real sickees.


I sold several pieces of art at IDICon. Of course, I always do better at a con, like SpaceTrek, without the clique-ees and sickees.
From BPG:
H/J zines are my favorite after K/S, but they K/S they hardly bear mentioning. Still, every now read a few of the series. I certainly prefer them are such a very long way after and them I get in the mood and over other "stroke" zines.
From NLS:
Dear APA readers: it's very rare that I lose my temper, but since I just can't let this go by till issue #16, I must speak now. I'm sick and tired of the underhanded tones that come from [BPG's] comments. I know of a few people who have dropped out because of her. I feel that I must take some action. As far as keeping [BPG] in the APA, I don't feel its right for me to just kick her out. I'm going to ask [BPG] to leave. If she still sends in her APA, I will put them in, just as long as her postage account is up to date. But I do not want anything to do with her.


RE: your comment in #15. Don't insult my intelligence by saying that commenting to you might be too difficult for me. On the contrary, what is difficult is trying to tolerate you. You have no idea who I am, and how I run my zine. Saying I could have done my color covers for less is an outrageous lie. You have no idea how much I paid for them, unless you were that piece of dirt on the floor in the office of the printers listening to us. And to say I might line my pockets is totaly obscene and unjust. I don't have or want to explain my zine finances to you. It's none of your business.

As for my friends, they can speak for themselves. All I can say is, how do you know what phoney friendship is? Could that be your standard for friendship? I don't want anything from you, especially your art work. Frankly I know now why so many dislike you. Everyone can't be wrong in what they are thinking. I guess you can put me on that list of yours. And as for anyone boycotting your art at Idicon, there were far superior pieces of art in the show. What the hell do you want a handful of people to do? Buy your art work? [BPG], you are a demented and insipid fool. I wish nothing more to do with you.
From NLS:
Mainly what I was saying about the APA is that I Just don't think it should be sold, as for any other person whom isn't in the APA but has friends in it, I think that would be O.K. for them to read it. I have to say that a coupIe of my friends read the APA and they are not a member, but the others that I have let also read the APA are now members. It's just that who wants to read something that someone wrote when you don't know the people.
From MSVD:
I also enjoy K/S/Mc. I always feel badly that he gets left out. Anyone remember the story where Kirk and Spock tell him about their relationship and he says he and Scotty have been together for years?
From MSVD:
I have become involved with the Starsky/Hutch fandom because I've enjoyed the women in it so much. I couldn't tell Starsky from Hutch at IDICon but I was sat down and shown an episode, told what to look for, and given a list of "must see" episodes. Then with 48 hours of tapes from a friend and a group of zines, I studied for a week straight. I can now tell them apart and will be enthusiastically attending the Paul Muni Special.
From JG:
Re artists' doing preliminary sketches: The topic came up in a discussion of editors' assign ing an artist an illoing project, then rejecting the final product. [DL], who's a professional artist and graphic designer, pointed out that in the "pro" world, it is common for artists to submit preliminary sketches. The editor can reject the preliminary sketches, but once she's accepted them, she has a binding agreement with the artist and can't then reject the final product. I think preliminary sketches are a good idea, not because I think artists and editors are working at cross-purposes, but because I've seen instances when it would have been helpful to have seen a preliminary sketch prior to the finished illo, instances when even the artist said she was dissatisfied with the final product and would like to have done it a bit differently. Editorial feedback wouldn't necessarily hurt the artist, and sometimes it might help.

Postponing for the moment a discussion of whether artists are "second citizens" in zine publishing, consider the differences between the way an editor deals with an author and the way she deals with an artist. When a story is submitted, the editor has several choices. She can reject it outright, for almost any reason at all, including "it's not my cup of tea." It may be Fan Q material, but if the editor doesn't like it, she doesn't have to accept it. If the editor does accept it, she can ask for changes ranging from minor copy-editing things to major rewrites. Normally, changes made in a story are the product of discussion, feedback and general give and take between editor and author.

With art, there is less flexibility or give and take. If you believe, as I do (and not every one agrees) that assigning an iiloing project to an artist creates a binding agreement between editor and artist, then the editor must publish the final product whether it meets her standards or not. Asking the artist to make changes in a finished product ranges from impractical to impossible. So what happens when you get a piece of art with serious flaws? All you can do is avoid calling on that artist again, which strikes me as an extreme solution.

Of course, the relation of authors and artists to zines is assymetrical in other, possibly countervailing, ways. An author can always take her rejected story elsewhere, or publish it her self, while a rejected illo usually can't be used for another assignment (I say "usually" because some fan art is quite generic. I've heard editors complain of artists who, when given an ilioing assignment, simply reach into their grab-bag and pull out a portrait of Kirk or Spock.) Though theoretically the artist can sell the rejected illo, practically that's often not the case. Are these good reasons why there can't be more give and take between editors and artists? We're talking about giving the editor more room for input and feedback, not about imposing her views on the artist.

I don't think preliminary sketches would interfere with the artists" creative freedom. The consensus in fandom is that the ideas expressed in a story are sacrosanct, and that the firm editorial hand is to be exercised only on the author's execution of those ideas. Of course, the editor may comment and give her opinion on the author's ideas, but the author should never, never feel bound by those opinions. The same principles should apply to artists. I agree that discussion of art ideas in letters or over the phone is a productive way to begin an assignment. But you can't teli from a verbal discussion how the finished piece is going to look or how well the idea is going to be executed.

Ultimately, artists will accept the idea of submitting preliminary sketches only if they them selves find it helpful. And there's the rub. If editors want to comment intelligently on art, they are going to have to acquire more expertise in it than most of us now have. Personally, I think that would be a great idea. After all, editors are expected to know something about literary structure, about grammar and punctuation and other nuts and bolts of writing, even if they aren't creative writers themselves -- maybe it's high time we expected the same basic knowledge about the nuts and bolts of art?
From JG:
Art tends to take on a life of its own independent of the work it was originally intended to illus rate. Do we really care, when we see a superb piece of fan art in the art room at a con, that it was created to illustrate a mediocre piece of fan fiction? (Of course, an exceilent piece of art created to illustrate a well-loved piece of fan fiction is especiaily coveted among fans: I don't know if that's a pro or con argument.) Artists don't just illustrate stories for zines; they also do covers and portfolio pieces. Artists are able to sell their work, authors aren't. The "average" zine story probably takes the author considerabiy more time to write than it takes the artist to illo it (I am generaiizing wildiy here), yet each receives the same contributor's copy. No, fandom is not a professional field. But I agree with [DL] that not being professional, not having to meet marketing deadlines or get Paramount's approval as the pros do, means we are free to be better than professional, to do the best quality work we can. And isn't the best fan work, in fact, much better than pro? Where in the world of pro publishing can you find anything as beautiful and lovingly put together as a fanzine like AMAZING GRACE or THE PRICE AND THE PRIZE?
From TJK:
Ah yes, the exotic dancers at IDICon (yawn, zzz). AllI can say is if that was exotic, I'd hate to see average.... The filking wasn't all that good. I understand it usually isn't, but as far as I'm concerned, anytime you're sitting right next to the leading (?) singer/instrumentalist and still can't hear the melody line, that's bad (we screwed up "Castaway" and that one's easy! I'll be taking one of my instruments along next year (I haven't decided which, but it won't be the saxophone, I'm sure) and see if I can't help them out a little in the melody department.
From PF:
The flyer asked that I tell how I got involved in this crazy hobby, both Trek and K/S, so here goes.

I've been a 'fan' of "Star Trek" ever since it first appeared on TV in 1966, but I never got into active fandom due to the disreputable appearance of the fans as seen through the eyes of the media. Somehow, I just didn't want people to see as some kind of nut running around with pointed ears and strange costumes as it is reported that so many 'Trekkies' loved to do. In fact, I once passed by a convention in downtown LA and,, sure enough, there they were! Ears and all! That was enough for me. Except for occasionally watching the syndicated re-runs on TV, "Star Trek" just never entered my mind. Then, ST:TMP was released. My husband urged me to see it and, since I had always enjoyed the series, I agreed, with only a moderate amount of enthusiasm. Well, was I ever disappointed!! In fact, in the five minutes it took to drive home from the theater, I managed to work up a pounding tension headache! I was so furious at what they had done to something I'd always liked, I was ready to spit! If I wanted to watch nothing but special effects, I'd tell them so. But until then, I preferred my movies to have at least a modicum of story and acting.

End of interest! Then, along came ST:TWOK. Once again, my husband insisted on going to see the movie. I sure wasn't willing to let myself in for another letdown, so this time I decided to get the book and at least have some idea of what was coming at me before I plunked down my hard-earned money. Have you ever sat in a tub of tepid water at 10:00 at night turning it salty with your tears? I did! That was exactly the situation when I came to Spock's death scene. My husband thought I had come completely unglued! Little did he know, that was only the beginning.

Having enjoyed the book so much, I decided it would be only fair to at least give the novelization of the first movie a chance. I hit a used book store and picked up a copy of the first movie/book and, lo and behold,, it was a good story. There really was some story there. Why on earth hadn't they put it in the movie? These first two books led me into a search for more books, and soon all the used book store owners in the area were directing me to the SF section as soon as I walked into the store. You sure can get a reputation fast when you are on a treasure hunt. Of course, I was still so far [into the closet only my nose was sticking out. It's amazing how many cover stories you can come up with when you don't want it known that you've joined the ranks of the crazies. Sick kid at home - gift for a friend - my husband loves it....and so on and so forth.

Then my book searches turned up the Marshak and Culbreath "New Voyages" books, and I learned about fanzines. I'd seen obscure mentions of them before, but nothing specific. Since my first, last and always love has always been books, the search was on in earnest, now. Somehow or other I got the name and address for the "Star Trek Welcommittee Directory" and, after quite a bit of back-and-forthing, I actually had the Directory in my hot little hands. That started a spate of letter-writing, which didn't last too long. I've never been too good at writing letters, so this was getting old in a hurry. My husband, however, had a computer, and he suggested I make up a 'form letter', and just change the name, address and name of the zine I was interested in and send that out. Sounded good to me.

Little did I realize it, but the Directory was anything up-to-and-including three years out of date. I must have sent out about fifty letters (complete with SASE's) in the first two months. Most of the people I wrote to never answered, but the few who did were usually amazed that their out-of-print zines were still being advertised.

After much confusion and letter-writing, I started to receive a few zines in the mail. The very first ones to arrive were Jean Lorrah's Amanda and Sarek series. I can't think of a better author to begin one's introduction to zines. I was both amazed and delighted. (This must have been sometime in 1983, because I still didn't have anyone but my long-suffering husband to talk Trek to. Or rather 'at.' He just let me babble on, probably figuring I'd run out of steam quickly enough. After twenty-four years of marriage, he should have known better.)

I had read of the K/S premise in a few discrete publications, but the mentions had been very few and rather obscure. Being naturally curious, I decided to investigate for myself, although I really didn't see how this relationship could possibly fit in with my view of Star Trek. Somehow, those two gorgeous males just couldn't deprive us drooling females of their wonderous presence! I ordered a couple of K/S zines and sat back to wait, sure within myself that this would never work! The first one to arrive was - now get this - "The Price and the Prize"! Nothing like starting out with just about the most hard-core K/S going! Well, ladies, it sure wasn't easy to get through that first K/S zine. It arrived in November, and so did my seventy-five year old mother for her annual Christmas visit! She was the one who brought me the package, pleased as punch to be the one to hand me something she knew I was eagerly waiting for. I ripped open the envelope...and jammed the zine back in as fast as I could. I just couldn't cope with cardiac arrest at that particular moment! Later, much later, when she was no longer within visual distance, I cautiously took another peek. Good grief! The illo on that cover was something else, and I'm still firmly in the closet! There was no way I was going to let anyone see me with that zine. So, for the next few nights, I quietly read the first few stories in bed. I felt like a fourteen year old who's gotten into her parent's porn collection, and has to read it under the covers with a flashlight! Not even my husband knew what I was reading, I hoped! When I had finished reading "The Prize", I was hooked!!! Royally! Have been ever since. I still enjoy gen Trek, but nothing can take the place of good ol' K/S.

In January of 1984, I got a telephone call from [SG]. I had written to her in the hopes of getting together with her, and hopefully some of the other Trekkers in the So.. Cal. area. I was dumbfounded to think that she would call a complete stranger long-distance. After we talked for about ten minutes, she informed me that a group of Trekkers were getting together the following day, a Sunday, and would I like to join them? Would I? I didn't even have the courtesy to 'ask' my husband if he minded if I went, I told him I was going! I'd never done anything like that in my life before! He wasn't too pleased at the idea of my driving all that way (!) but, he really didn't have all that much to say about it.. I went! At that meeting I met quite a few people, most notably Vel Jaeger, [SG] and [KK]. Life opened up considerably after that. They very generously loaned me zines (and allowed me to copy some of them), introduced me to new facets of zinedom, and generally welcomed me into the ranks of the Trekkers.


Long winded, ain't I? Well, [you] did ask for it! Hope I haven't bored you ladies too much. For all my yakking, I humbly acknowledge a debt to K/S for helping me to see things and attitudes in a clearer light, especially the question of homosexuals and their right to live their lives in whatever manner they choose. My views on homosexuality have always been liberal, of the nature of 'what they choose to do is none of my business as long as they don't bother me with it', Now I see their way of life in a somewhat different light, and I am a champion of their right to live as they please. This is a basic right of all people, whatever sexual preferences they have. It doesn't make them right or wrong, just people!
From LF:
Female supporters of sociobiology? Fantasy and SF writer Janet Morris loves sociobiology, and she's definitely a "two-animal" woman. Her sexism at a con panel horrified me. I'd never heard of a sociobiologist that wasn't sexist, so I assumed that Marshak and Culbreath weren't really and that getting Shatner to read that stuff [1] was because they thought he'd be compatible with it. After all, Shatner's extremely sexist. Ask him about an episode and he want's to know if "he got the girl" as he said a question and answer session when he appeared at my college some years ago. I didn't mind it at the time because the attitude reminded me of Kirk.
From LF:
Speaking as a writer, I am not indifferent to what art is used for my story, but I know nothing about art, so I'm willing to leave this up to the artist and the editor. It would be a waste of time to send art to me for approval. ... If I submitted a story other with artwork, I would expect them to be accepted or rejected as a package.
From LF:
About real gay relationships -- what you say, [BPG], about male sexuality sounds rather sexist, and I don't think anthropologists can prove anything except the way mane are socialized to react. I know men that don't fit your description . I also know when who do.... All I ask is that writers don't stereotype or sentimentalize. If they are honest in their writing, portraying the way real pope react, then they will show a real gay relationship. Since honest writing is so rare, the K/S relationship shown comes off as phony and laughable.

The stories I've read by Gayle have good characterization. I admit that the article I just did for my NTS column gave me a new respect for Desert Heat and Beyond Setarcos because they illustrated my article's theme so well. "Desert Heat" in particular is what I would call a real gay relationship. It deals in genuine internal conflicts that real gay men have had. Believe me, real gay life is not all gleeful promiscuity. Have you ever really talked to gay men about their lives and the process of how they came to understand themselves and their sexuality? There's a lot of pain there and a great deal of emotional strength that few men possess.


It would be very helpful to me in my column for NTS ("Sexuality in K/S Fiction"), if I could have access to some Bay Area fan's zine collection. If you don't feel comfortable loaning them out, I could come over and take notes. My own exposure to K/S has been very limited at this point and I can't afford to buy zines. After awhile, people are going to get tired of my discussing the same stories over and over again — even if they are considered "classics". I have not called or written any of the Bay Area member's of this apa about this individually because I feel this is an imposition on a very superficial acquaintance. If someone here wants to helo me, that's fine, but I don't expect it. About the only return I can make is to let my kind benefactor see a cooy of my column in advance of publication.
From LF:
Let me give you the benefit of my experience with hard-nosed confidentiality policies are riddled with paranoia and everyone is constantly accusing everyone else of breaking it. Not only this, they wrangle over what constitutes confidentiality infringement mailing after mailing. Such apas are like acrimonious families that stay together even though they don't get along. However if an outsider attacks them, they can unite. I find this very unpleasant. I only deal with it because of the importance ot those particular apas to me. I understand that for some people their involvement in K/S is highly sensitive. I understand that some members feel very protective of this apa. But if you really want something to be a secret, it is unrealistic to think that it will remain a secret if it's shared by 30 other people. Apa publication is publication. I see every apazine as a limited circulation fanzine. I wouldn't put anything in one that I would care about my worst enemy finding out. But then I have nothing to hide. I also think that I have exercised good judgement in showing and discussing this apa. A number of these people have either joined or are considering membership.

Issue 16

K/S & K.S. (Kindred Spirits) 16 was published in October 1985 and contains 111 pages. The deadline for the next issue is November 25, 1985.

cover of the issue #16

There are 16 tribs from 27 members. Three of those members were new, one was someone who had returned.

This issue has mention of the sad passing of Toni Cardinal-Price on August 15, 1985 due to an automobile accident caused by a drunk driver.

Tribs: TB (Stellar Drift), RKL (Ruth's Riteings), JG (Unity of Opposites), TKG (Dragon's Lair), MVD (Maida's Moments), EB (Milwaukee Mafia Missive), AC (Texas Trek), CW (Gentlebeings), PD (Redford Rot), DM (Zute's Identical Twin Sister), MLC (Feliciatiions), C (Seacatraces #3), LF (Lavender Diversity), AB (Tail Recursives), NLS (Ramblings), PD (Furin)

Fanworks and other:

  • a flyer for "The Committee to Preserve Our Sexual and Civil Liberties" -- reprints of three issues "Journal of Sexual Liberated," (August 1, 1985 v.1 n.4, September 1985 v.1 n.5, October 1985, v.1 n.6)
  • many reprints of May-July 1985 posts from "The Well Computer Bulletin Board" (Whole Earth Catalog -- "it can be reached at 332-6106, costs $8 per month plus $2 per hour.")
  • several pages of coding for a fan-created computer "game"
  • 20 pages of reprinted pages from "IBM Jargon Dictionary"
  • Waiting, poem by PD
  • a long, detailed description of Roddenberry's ceremony to get a Hollywood Star
  • another chapter of By the Stone Ezel by LF
From PD:
What is a "real" gay relationship? There would seem to be the possibility of as many variations as there are people. This is true of any relationship, not just homosexual ones. It is in itself a stereotype to decide that certain types of individuals cannot engage in a particular type of behaviour. As for sentimentality, that is not such an easy thing to define since it lies in the eyes of the beholder. What is sentimental to you may not be to me because our emotional boundaries are different. I find it interesting that you cite "Desert Heat" as an example of "real" gay behaviour because when I read this story, I get the picture of two men who are not gay having to resolve a sticky situation. If they had been gay, it would not have been any big deal. In addition, I find this a very sentimental story in the original sense of the word, (tender, artistic and noble). Exaggerated or sloppy expression of emotion is a minor definition of the word which is very recent. As fpr K/S stories being "gay" stories, I think we discussed this a little at my apartment. They were not written for a specifically gay audience, though I have given them to some gay friends who enjoy them very much. (They do not find the stories particularly unreal.) I am of course speaking of the stories which are well written in other repects as well as the secual aspect. You might check out the essay on K/S that is in Organia and Joanna Russ's essay in Nome 8. I think you would find them interesting.
From PD:
Leonard Nimoy is not upset by K/S; he just doesn't think K&S would have a physical relationship. As for putting a stop to it, he is on record as saying that he doesn't believe in any form of censorship.
From PD:
I don't have a problem with fans or pro spective fans seeing the APA. (Or seen by anyone who just wants to read it out of curiosity.) I do have a problem with people using the APA for professional purposes...
From LF:
In SF fandom, an apa is presumed non-confidential unless the policy states otherwise. Most apas aren't confidential at all. Usually, they are so full of boring mundane stuff that no one would buy one. I feel fortunate to have gotten out of the apas composed of diary zines and accounts of car repairs. They'd probably be astonished that anyone would be willing to pay money for an apa, not outraged. It's a totally different mind-set. The idea that an apa, which is a publication, is private correspondence unless otherwise indicated is foreign to me and any other SF fandom apahacks I know.
From LF:

Re Joanna Russ's theory — I don't believe Spock is a woman for a minute. I was arguing about this theory in MIXED COMPANY about a year ago. I think that some K/S fans at least have made some progress in overcoming sexism, and Russ's theory gives us no credit for that whatsoever! We're all trapped in our socialization pattern. This analysis is far too simplistic. I am anxious to see her essay on K/S that was published in her latest anthology . (MAGIC MOMMAS, TREMBLING SISTERS, PURITANS AND PERVERTS) The reviews have gotten me curious to say the least. Interest in K/S has increased at warp speed in the feminist community since its publication. Some K/S fans are having fits.

I got concerned about the direction of this fandom at [NLS's] recent party where [VC] of NOME was talking about Joanna Russ as if she were an Australian gutter press radio program. If I am right in thinking that Paramount is too late to successfully prosecute us (see my comments to David Gerrold in NTS 10), there is no reason to alienate friends and allies who can help us if we are prosecuted. Now [JG] can correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that if it can be proven that THRUST was sent to Paramount Legal Department about ten years ago and that they chose to do nothing, no court would buy their argument now. This doesn't mean that they can't prosecute. This only means they would lose and would therefore be foolish to prosecute because it would be bad publicity for them to lose such a case — particularly if everyone in the world knew about K/S. Very embarassing. And it's coming to that point. We can no longer choose to have no mentions of K/S in the media. Forget it. [VC] of NOME also mentioned that PENTHOUSE had been in touch with Joanna Russ seeking information about K/S. Joanna wouldn't give PENTHOUSE the time of day. Unfortunately, I don't believe for a minute that PENTHOUSE will give up after one inquiry. Of course, we don't want scum like Guccione poking around our turf. He won't treat K/S with resoect. We should definitely present a united front of silence to him, but should we have the same attitude to feminist theorists who may have interesting thoughts to contribute? That doesn't make sense to me. I think we need to re-think our position about publicity. We will have it, whether we like it or not. The only choice we can make is whether we will encourage friendly publicity or let our enemies have a field day in the press unanswered.
From C:
I had a very nice time at TRIANGULUM, the science fiction/fact/fantasy convention here in Milwaukee over Labor Day weekend. The GoHs were Harlan Ellison, short story-writer, and David (Ain't I Swell?) Gerrold. Mr. Ellison has always been very nice to me and this time was no different. This was the first time I had formally met Mr. Gerrold to chat. He threatens to write anyone if they ask intelligent questions AND include a SASE; quote: "I don't need any body who just wants famous penpals." He said that I couldn't be a K/S fan because I seemed to be a reasonable human being (first glances can be deceiving). He also said that he was with Crazy Uncle Gene when he created the Star Trek characters. While in Chicago he talked with a woman, the former Miss Tribble whose uncle, during prohibition had been a bootlegger called "Trouble Tribble" -- she said that she wouldn't sue. In Milwaukee, at the con hotel, the brand of chocolate chip cookies, professionally distributed and packaged, is TRIBBLES (dating from the late 50's). They also said that they wouldn't sue.
From MLC:

[How I got into fandom]: In Jean Lorrah's book, The Vulcan Academy Murders, there is an address given for the Star Trek Welcommittee. I read this book in July, and for some reason waited til August to send off a letter of inquiry. The week before Christmas '84, I received a large, fat envelope from Lisa Wahl in Los Angeles, filled with lots of information on Star Trek clubs, fanzines, conventions, fanclubs, etc. Well, I went absolutely ga-ga. I joined Trek International, sent off for both Universal Translator and Datazine (not having any idea at the time on what I was getting myself in for), and ordered tickets from Creation Con for a convention they were holding in San Francisco in February. I also ordered (from a flyer Lisa sent) Alternate Universe 4 and Jean Lorrah's Sarek and Amanda collection. I was impressed by the fan writing, as it was certainly leagues ahead of many of the "pro" ST novels that I had just recently finished reading.

Then, the first "big moment" happened. At the Creation Con in San Francisco, Datazine had a table in the dealers room. (Universal Translator or Datazine hadn't as yet arrived in my mailbox.) I started browsing through the 'zines, picking out Spock Enslaved and Vault of Tomorrow 4. Then I noticed a box of 'zines sitting at the back-end of the table. I approached the box of'zines, never dreaming what effect this would have on my life. The first couple of 'zines in the box had innocent covers and innocuous titles. Abot six 'zines into the box, I ran across First Time. I gasped at the depictive cover, exclaiming, "Oh, my God!" Apparently loudly, as [SW], of Datazine, heard me, and walked over to my end of the table. "What's wrong?" he asked, voice filled with concern. I managed to hold up the 'zine, and innocently ask, "Good grief, what can this be about?" "Oh, this? Can't you tell by the cover? That's a K/S 'zine." (K/S - what the hell is K/S?) By this time, a small crowd has gathered around the box of 'zines. "Why don't you skim through it, it should be self-explanatory," [SW] advises me, and then wanders off, chuckling, and shaking his head.

Well, yes I skimmed through it, and ran across several very descriptive passages in the first story. Oh, my! This can't be for real, is all I can keep saying to myself. To prove it is real, I, of course, purchase First Time and Daring Attempt. This occurred on Saturday, and the following Monday, Universal Translator arrived in the mail. July rolls around, and already through the assistance of Universal Translator, I have purchased approximately 30 'zines, of which 10 are K/S.
From DM:
You said that as a lesbian you weren't turned on by K/S. As a straight woman, I don't think I really am either. I read straight erotic fan fiction which I enjoy and am turned on by, but that's not really true about K/S. I think I enjoy the forbidden fruit aspect of it. K/S and K/S zines are something I have to keep secret from my employers (loyal Trekkers who would be appalled by the concept) and my other fan friends (who dislike the idea) and especially from the mundanes I come in contact with. I think enjoy having a hidden interest. None of this is to say that I don't appreciate the lovely illos of gorgeous naked men or the steamy sex scenes, but that's not my primary attraction to K/S.
From DM:
My current favorites are stories that bring them almost to the point of first timers (although I still really enjoy a good first timer). I don't honestly see them as lovers in aired Trek and love stories that can convincingly bring them together with emphasis on the whys of the situation and not the hows, that's why I don't like alternative universes. It seems to be almost cheating to use an alternative universe, because if it's a different enough universe, then anything is possible. I want to see aired Spock and Kirk get together.
From DM:
Without UT, Datazine or a friend into zines it can be incredibly difficult to track down or even to know what zines are. The first time I heard the word zine was at an Octocon several years ago when someone came up to me and asked if I liked zines, I thought for a few moments and then said I thought Analog was okay. Obviously, I didn't understand and was not enlightened for another 2 years.
From DM:
As much as I enjoy the explicit illos by [Gayle F] and company, they can be a little embarrassing. I do a fair amount of reading when I'm out in public, in parks, restaurants, etc. and wish that I could choose the zine to read on the basis of something else besides the cover. Also I'm a nanny to twos mall children, both of whom are very familiar with Trek, can you imagine having to answer a question like "Why aren't Spock and Captain Kirk wearing any clothes?". I keep my K/S zines well hidden.
From AC:

I like Harve Bennett's Star Trek! (Now if that doesn't start a fight, I don't know what will!) All ST, whether televised or motion picture is flawed, but so is life. Absolute perfection in anything is apt to be boring. If one is looking for flaws, one can find them anywhere. And I prefer it that way. ST is supposed to be fun, not an attempt to sit down and nit pick all the errors in it. I have never been able to understand the person (not only in ST fandom, but in any situation) who professes to love something or someone and then proceeds to tear it apart. If one can find nothing but fault with anything, it is the height of stupidity to stay with it. Loving is overlooking the faults and taking joy in the good.

Now to some small particulars of my ST interests. I have been from the start a Spock/Nimoy fan, although I will not accept ST without Kirk/Shatner either. And not just because of K/S either. To my mind Shatner is Kirk, and Nimoy is Spock, and the two characters are ST. When they leave the films, I will stop going to see them. I'm not interested in written SF at all, and see very little. As a matter of fact, the ST films are all I will go to see in a theater. I wait for the others to appear on cable or to be available on tape. I'm not interested in the technology or the philosophy of ST as much as I am in the characters and their interaction with each other. I don't miss the Enterprise at all. It was an inanimate object, a vessel designed to take the characters to the story. It was not a living being. All its demise does is deprive a few extras of the chance to be in the film and be killed off. Kirk and company would do just as well operating from the small Klingon scout ship.

My main fan interest is collecting zines, both K/S and gen. At this time I have somewhere over 500 of the little darlings. I'm not into any other "/' fandom and don't plan to be. ST is quite enough.
From EB:
Does anybody know what went on involving an article in a Seattle newspaper about K/S? I heard a rumor, but have no more information than that. [2]
From EB:
I wish more people who feel insecure about being identified as feminists would come to see that identification as a positive one, not as something suspect. Maybe if we all persevere. It will be interesting to see whether the feminist analyses of K/S by Joanna Russ and Patricia Frazer Lamb and Diana Veith [3] will provoke thought in some of those quarters. I hope so.
From EB:
This will be my first computer-produced APA newsletter. My computer and printer were delivered last week, and I am beginning -- just beginning -- to learn how to use them. Right now I really don't know anything except how to use the computer as a correcting typewriter, and how to print out a document. No frills. But I plan to learn more, as rapidly as I can. My computer is a Zenith ZW 151-52, approximately the equivalent of an IBM PC/XT, but with more memory. And my printer is a Juki 6300, which is a copycat for the Diablo 630, but slower and not as expensive. I'm using a program called WORDPERFECT.
From MVD:

I think I'll take a break from writing K/S for a short time and try my hand at a S/H story. They are truly obsessive.

Made my first songtape - four Cat Stevens songs. I suppose all design projects are the same. I explained to my boss that writing a fan story is just like writing a computer program - top down. One of the guys keeps trying to find out where to find my stories. Little does he know they're in my directory. I really should learn how to encrypt there. Anyway, while rambling, making a songtape embodies the same processes that are involved in a book or program or language design. Interesting.
From MVD:
My database is now officially, temporarily, down the tube. We heard from Paramount the week before we were going out with a product to the Artificial Languages conference that we couldn't use my Star Trek database and tutorial without permission from Simon and Schuster, who own electronic rights to ST. By the time we finalized no way out, it was Thursday and we were not going out on Friday if we had no tutorial. So I spent Thursday in NYC shunting from office to office trying to find out who makes decisions and how their business plans interacted with what I had. Turns out they are putting out an Adventure Game which has nothing to do with my database but have no interest in a trivia type thingie. Which doesn't meant they'll give permission. The lawyers claim they have rights to the episodes and to the characters so that you can't change the characterization. "Oh, I asked innocently, you mean I couldn't describe Spock as a blond wimp." "Right", they said. You could not use a blond wimp Spock with a Kirk or use a blond wimp Vulcan Spock. I then asked if they ever ran into problems and sued (as they kept talking about). Her eyes glazed slightly and she said "No problems and they try hard not to sue." Nifty eh? Realized I would have to wait for the next release for anything with the database so came back looking for a QUICK FIX. One of our group suggested changing the names of the characters. I didn't think that would work so I decided to create a whole new TV series which still had planets and space ships so I could use the same functions for traipsing through the database. The end of this is that database. It's a combination of business jokes and LISP in-jokes. Might not be understandable, but then again ...
From MVD:

I very much enjoyed Joanna Russ' article in Nome 8. I think she has an internal contradiction in that Spock can't both be a woman and the relationship show two equal figures because men and women still aren't equal in our society. Personally, I think I'm into KS because I'm looking for "safe" fantasy. I don't want to be tempted into a relationship and I don't enjoy fantasies that I can project myself into.

From MVD:

I can't really handle H/J (Harry Callahan and Johnny from Magnum Force). I just read August and they were so yucky sweet. It's as though they wanted to liberate men by endowing them with "female" characteristics and chose some of the nurdier. Women can be straight and true and don't have to act so clinging and sexually compulsive. They were in a shooting match and won a setting for 12 of silverware. I haven't yet been to a gun meet, but I have been to gun show and it didn't ring right.

From MVD:
I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the filking at IDICON. I loved it. That's where I heard the Larry Warner and for nothing else that would have been great. But, in fact, I thought the singing was wonderfully pleasant.
From JG:

K/S stories rarely have major (human) characters outside the Big Two and, occasionally, the other Trek folks, so the issue of "tokenism" seldom arises. Since I'm not a writer, I cant prove I'd practice what I preach if I were one; but in the only Trek story I ever wrote with a major character other than Kirk and Spock, the character was an African Muslim. I think I devoted considerable attention to her background and motivations, but none of it had anything to do with her religion or national origin, because I considered other things about her much more important.

What troubles me in your framing of the issue is that you seem to assume that a third-world diaracter's relevant "motivations and background" will somehow, inevitably, flow from his or her religion and nationality. Why, when that clearly isn't true of the rest of us? You suggest that you can't write a story with a character who's a "Hindu Brahmin" unless his Hindu Brahminism is somehow worked into the story. If so, how can you deal with a character of any national origin without working it into the story? When you work with a character whose name indicates that she is an American Protestant, do you feel you have work her alleged belief in predestination or salvation by faith (or whatever the hell Protestants are supposed to believe) into the story, or discuss whether she has been saved, sanctified, goes to prayer meeting 3 times a week or is completely non-practicing like most Protestants? It's only the perception that a person is somehow "exotic" that makes his background more "interesting" than that of anyone else. But if persons of all human religions and nationalities belong equally in Starfleet — and I think that was Roddenberry's intent, regardless of whether the network allowed him fully to carry through on it or not — then no one is exotic and everyone is as "interesting" as everyone else.

If you want to write about cultures, that's fine and dandy. But please don't confuse that with writing about individuals. Yes, to write about a culture one must write about persons who are members of that culture, but the converse is emphatically not the case.


When I lived in Tennessee, I knew many fundamentalist Protestants. One summer during high school, a friend invited me to the annual convention of the Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith, and I went and watched while the faithful were saved, dunked in rivers, and awaited the Second Coming. To me, that experience was like being on another planet, and I'm an American Protestant, too.

Perhaps the real problem is how to preserve a third-world character's cultural specificity with out falling into the trap of of essentialism: of suggesting, for example, that a character from a Hindu background must have certain characteristics or must behave in a certain way.
From JG:
...the Joanna Russ essay was a write up of the talk you mentioned hearing her give and that it was published in the most recent issue of NOME. I agree with you that both Kirk and Spock have "masculine" and "feminine" traits. Once I took two lists of stereotypically "mascu line" and "feminine" traits (from the book MASCU LINE/FEMININE OR HUMAN?) and applied them to Kirk and Spock. Spock's "psych profile" was about evenly balanced between "masculine" and "feminine" traits. Kirk had most of the traits in the "masculine" column and very many of the traits in the "feminine" column.
From JG:
Re your comments to BPG: You say you feel you don't have the authority to kick a member out, yet you do seem to be asking her to leave in your capacity as CM rather than your capacity as a member (at least that was my impression — I may be confused because you chose to respond to her immediately rather than waiting for the next apa). If a CM (or another member) thinks that the good of the apa requires someone to leave — because, for example, she's caused many others to drop out — I think she should present the facts she knows to the rest of the apa membership. (I assume we'd all agree that disliking someone or finding her comments obnoxious is not sufficient reason to remove her. I someone is offensive, it's easier just to ignore her.) The person sought to be removed should, of course, have an opportunity to respond, and the decision should be up to the membership as a whole. For what it's worth, several people did drop out of this apa after it was sold at a con., but no effort was made to find out if the person responsible for selling the apa was still a member, much less to expel her if she was.
From JG:

Re your comment to [MVD] on employers who are unsympathetic to fannish activities: I am going to bite the bullet on this one. I just don't believe dire things are going to happen to most or us if employers or others in our "mundane" orbits find out about our involvement with K/S. I suspect our own insecurity and embarrassment does much more to keep us in the closet. Although I readily show the K/S stuff I read and write to most of my co-workers, there are others with whom I'm just not ready to talk about my interest in K/S.


The point I'm trying to make is that yes, it's often embarrassing to tell others of our interest in K/S, But let's face the reasons for that embarrassment squarely, and stop pretending it's because others are incapable of seeing the same values in K/S that we do. Joanna Russ wrote, in her article in NOME 8, of how silly she felt confessing her fascination with K/S. Perhaps it's because she's a famous science fiction writer that she had the confidence to "come out" publicly and write about the valuable things she sees in K/S and why she loves it. And maybe those of us who are not-so-famous will one day reach that same level of confidence with everyone we know. Or is it possible that K/S fans prefer to remain in a self-enclosed ghetto; or that we really do think K/S is silly?
From JG:
You responded to BPG's statement, "Every one who produces something or who entertain expects criticism; it's part of being an artist or writer" by suggesting that it's somehow legitimate to criticize a product unless you show your criticism to the producer. Do you feel it's wrong to discuss a zine or a story or a piece of fan art with other fans, at a con or over the phone or in a letter or in a casual conversation, unless you transcribe your comments and mail the editor, author or artist a copy? Do you cc editors, authors and artists whenever you discuss works in letters to other fans?
From TB:
I have particularly liked the illustration of [Gayle F], but have no favorite stories. Some stories I have seen do seem to dwell on agony too much for my taste. I have done very little fiction writing myself -- I think I'm too literal minded...
From TB:
We are running a computer bulletin board here at (415) 621- 7561, for those who have a computer and now have a hard disk and another computer for 24 hour operation. We have some Star Trek stuff on the board, but so far not much in put except from me.
From DL:
Who's getting dumped? Wait one minute here. If someone is going to be asked to resign from this APA, don't the rest or us have any say in the matter? Seems to me that it's al ready been established that the Central Mailer has no authority to censor our apazines. So, what is the ultimate form of censorship? Expulsion! Unless I'm badly misinformed, until some ground rules are established about what (besides missed issues and unpaid postage) will get one dumped, it is superfluous as well as presumptuous for anyone here to ask anyone else to leave.
From DL:
I got a kick out of your account of your experience with your mother and THE PRICE AND THE PRIZE. Sounds typical of what many K/S fans go through. Which brings up a question I'd like to put to everyone: How up-front are you about your interest in K/S — with friends, co-workers, parents, children, spouses? And what kinds of reactions have greeted the revelation?


  1. ^ See the previous issue for more on this topic.
  2. ^ Two issues later (#18), a fan replied: "Re your question about the Joanna Russ and K/S article. I remember reading it in t he Seattle Times, and I'm almost sure I saved it, but haven't been able to locate it yet. As I recall, it just mentioned K/S in passing, as just one of many types of fan fiction based on the series. Even so I was quite taken by surprise to see her mention it in something as widely read (at lease locally) as the Times."
  3. ^ Because Romantic Myth, Transcendence, and Star Trek Zines was published February 1986, about six months after this APA was created, this means the fan was referring to the 1982 oral presentation called: "The Romantic Myth and Transcendence: A Feminist Interpretation of the Kirk/Spock Bond." The text of that oral presentation was reprinted with permission in the 1985 Sime~Gen zine Post-Syndrome: Considerations on Sexuality in the Sime/Gen Universe. While the topic and contents of the book chapter and the oral presentation are quite similar, the 1986 version is much revised.