Ranting (but hopefully not raving)

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Title:	Ranting (but hopefully not raving)
Creator:	Jungle Kitty
Date(s):	March 3, 1998
Medium:	Usenet
Fandom:	Star Trek: TOS
Topic:
External Links:	Ranting (but hopefully not raving); [archive link with comments expanded]
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Ranting (but hopefully not raving) is a 1998 post by Jungle Kitty.

The topic was the portrayal of James T. Kirk (TOS) in fanfiction, but it is also an example of fans overlooking comments that may have been less-well received coming from someone who was not a BNF (aka, a "giver of pain and delight" ). One fan said that since her fiction was so good, she had a "right to have a strong opinion."

Some Topics Discussed in the Post

• common assumptions contained in slash fiction
• misogyny in slash fiction
• Jungle Kitty's head canon regarding James T. Kirk (TOS)'s characterization and motives
• telling other people what to write or not write
• a request/suggestion that people "code" their own fiction (as misogynistic?) so she doesn't have to read it; she later comments this is just a joke
• perhaps some personal projection
• Kirk is not cruel; he is respectful and gentlemanly, even to "that silver trash skanky chick on Triskelion"
• one's own headcanon is the truth; other fans' headcanons are out of character, even when you call your fic an AU
• she says she isn't telling others what to write (but follows that with "I guess I am")
• differing levels of suspension of belief, a good writer can make one believe anything
• in a later comment to her own post, she admits ASCEM has been boring lately, so maybe this will shake things up
• even if Kirk is in an intimate and/or sexual relationship with Spock, he still loved having sex (and loves) with women - this is illustrated in the episode "Wolf in the Fold" where Kirk tried to rape Janice Rand, not Spock (!)
• Jungle Kitty requested that all replies should be posted on ASCEM, not privately

Some Topics Discussed in the Comments

• "great writers have a lower tolerance for poor writing than readers do"
• some fans took this rant as permission and encouragement to tell other fans how much they disliked slash in general

• another fan wrote that "shared-world writing is one the reasons shared worlds do not traditionally bring out writers' best work" -- and then explained why

The Post

I sincerely hope this won't be interpreted as a flame. I would honestly like to initiate a *discussion* about this line of thought. So please post responses to the newsgroup--not email to me.

Please keep in mind that I read K/S, I write K/S, I enjoy K/S. But some (thankfully, not many) K/S stories include this sort of sentiment:

Kirk has had all those women to prove to himself (or the rest of the galaxy) that he doesn't want Spock.

OR

Kirk never wanted all those women -- they were simply substitutes for what he wanted and couldn't have.

I hate this. I really hate this. I can't tell you how much I hate this. I hate it in any story, no matter how much I like the rest of the story. For me, it completely ruins every story in which it appears. I would like to have a code for K/S stories that include this POV so I can avoid them.

[...]

To elaborate:

1. It demeans women.

It infuriates me whenever someone is used this way (real life or fiction) -- either as a substitute for someone else (in which case you should go to a prostitute because he/she won't care) or to keep someone or the world in general from knowing that you're attracted to a member of your own sex (in which case you should come out of the closet or at least not inflict your problem on innocent bystanders). It is unspeakably cruel to make someone think you care and let him/her develop tender feelings for you, only to find out that he/she has been used. And usually by someone who insists that he/she didn't mean to hurt you and hopes it won't affect your friendship.

2. It demeans Spock.

I had an e-discussion with someone about this and they pointed out that Spock is sexy, desirable, wonderful on his own. He doesn't need us to denigrate the "competition" or however you regard the women.

3. It demeans Kirk.

I don't think he's this cruel/thoughtless/ungentlemanly. Even when he's seducing a woman purely in the line of duty (that silver trash skanky chick on Triskelion comes to mind), he doesn't treat them badly. He has some feeling for them. He does not lead them on to believe in some impossible future with him. See point 1 above.

4. It isn't Kirk.

Whenever I read this in a story, I always think, "OK, you had me fooled for a while. I thought you were writing about James T. Kirk. But you're not. You're writing about someone else that you're calling James T. Kirk and now I'm not interested anymore."

You may say it's A/U. Fine. But if you write an A/U story, *put A/U in your header*. And if your A/U contains this nauseating sentiment, you might even drop me an email telling me *not* to read that story. I would appreciate it. Honest.

<It's all about you, isn't it, Kitty?>

Yes, it is. <grin> But in my own defense, I did tell one person not to read "Blood Claim," because I knew her tastes and wanted to spare her what I knew her reaction would be.

JTK likes, wants, and enjoys women.

To me, this is so basic to his character that to deny it is more than just artistic license or non-canon. It's using the character like a Halloween costume. Yeah, you can wear the Batsuit but that don't make you Batman. It's like making Scotty a Frenchman. That's how far off I think this is.

I'm not saying that all stories should include Kirk enjoying women as part of his character. It's the flat-out denial of it that gets to me.

This doesn't mean Kirk doesn't like, want, and enjoy men, Spock in particular. It doesn't mean that he doesn't like, want, and enjoy Spock more than the women or in a different way from the women. It doesn't mean that he and Spock aren't the most perfect couple ever. It doesn't mean that getting together with Spock can't be an epiphany for Kirk, in which he discovers that he has hotter sex with Spock than he's ever had, he'll never want anyone else but Spock ever again, what he had in the past pales in comparison to what he has with Spock. I can buy all of the above. But no matter how well you write it, I just won't buy JTK not wanting women, never has, nope, it was all a sham, he was just kidding himself.

He doesn't believe in the no-win scenario, remember? He always thinks he can have everything both ways--his cake and eat it, too. <slurp> Wanting women would not rule out wanting Spock, or vice versa.

Also (and I'm really bad with episode names but I think it's called "The Enemy Within") when Kirk is split in two, "Wolf" Kirk goes after Janice Rand, not Spock. "Wolf" Kirk has no sense of right or wrong, proper or improper. So at least at that point, Kirk wanted a particular woman more than he wanted Spock. Maybe he didn't want Spock at all at that point.

This sentiment is particularly jarring in a K/S story written from the standpoint that humans in general and/or Kirk in particular are not hung up on a sex partner's gender (one of the nicer things about 23rd Century Earth IMHO). In that case, why would he chase *women* if he wanted a Spock substitute? Wouldn't he look for a tall, dark, handsome *man* who's turned on by sandalwood?

Lastly, although it sounds like I'm trying to tell others how/what to write (and maybe I am, but I get requests, suggestions, and even demands from readers all the time so now it's my turn), if someone can make a legitimate case for this, I would honestly like to hear it.

Again, please don't reply to me. Send it to ASCEM.

Your thoughts?

Fan Comments: At the Post

[DataLaur]:

JK, I was not particularly interested in K/S or TOS fanfic reader until recently. Stuff like Lost Sailor, The Memories Remain, Fire on the Mountain and Jonk's Prelude, among others, have changed. I haven't gone back into the archives to dig up the old stuff (yet), so I don't think that I have read any stories that do what you said, or at least I didn't notice it if they did.

But your assessment of Kirk seems spot-on to me. He genuinely likes women and even though he fools around a lot, he doesn't treat them in an ungentlemanly fashion. I always sensed at least some affection. It seems more of a stretch to say Kirk likes men than to say Kirk likes/respects women. Not that I don't *want* to see Kirk with Spock, mind you... I'm definitely willing to take the subtext and find all sorts of good stuff there... ::distracting thought from Crazy Fingers intruding::

Uh... where was I? Oh. I wouldn't mind reading a story of the sort you hate. Because either the author sees Kirk that way, or is experimenting to see if he/she can explain Kirk that way. Either way, they have an uphill road to make it believable, for at least some of us. Maybe someone out there can make it work - we have some pretty darn awesome writers who might like the challenge of convincing the skeptics. The discussion of S/McCoy comes to mind...

Heck, you did a good job of something similar - I wouldn't have believed Kirk was ever raped, or that such a story could work... yet your The Life That Lies ::crossing fingers that title is right:: was wonderfully done and *believable*.

So I say, write 'em all and let the readers sort 'em out. The well-written ones will convince, the others will not. And anyhow, one might not mind suspending one's disbelief once in a while (there are some recent stories I didn't *believe* could ever happen, but that didn't stop me from enjoying them a whole lot.) Although the best stories are those that ring true, of course.

I don't think a coding is needed, btw.

[geoffrey2]:

Well, Jungle Kitty, I admire your courage. But, since you write the most true to life Kirk I've encountered in fanfic, both in your K/Brandt and K/S stories, I think you have the right to have a strong opinion and tell us about it. Me, I don't write, so I try hard not to rant about things I hate to see.

I have to say I agree with you, although it doesn't bother me anywhere near as much as it does you. I'll bet we all encounter characterizations of our favorites that are repulsive to us, yet not to other readers. I think it's more of a reflection on those of us who are repulsed, than it is on the writer. For example, I can't stomach anything that involves Kirk and Spock wanting to have a child. I *know* this reflects on me; even in real life I think people, male or female, who want to have children are sort of sick. It's a rare opinion, granted, but it's mine. I still read these stories to the end, in the interest of getting to know the author.

[Jungle Kitty]: K/S wanting or having a child is another one that gives me the willies. I'm a little more tolerant of real-life people having children. But as a person who is childless by choice, I would love to hear real-life parents discuss their choice--but they're *rabid*. They seem to think you're attacking their child.

Anyway, I don't think your quote-rant-unquote will, or should, make anyone afraid to write what he or she wants. If it makes someone stop and rethink Kirk, that's great.

...one last thought: I think it's a mistake to think that all writers are attempting to stay true to everything ever demonstrated in canon about a character. I expect writers pull what they like from canon, and ignore the rest, or flat-out contradict it, on purpose because it's more to their taste. And, I think there's nothing wrong with doing that. We see what we see in a character, and I think it's unreasonable to expect us all to see the same thing.

My Kirk, though? He likes women, and men, and Spock in particular best of all. -- Geoffrey

[Smaragd]:

JungleKitty -

I would rather keep this between us, but you asked ... So here's my response. And I apologize for quoting this much text, but I felt it necessary.

some (thankfully, not many) K/S stories include this sort of sentiment: Kirk has had all those women to prove to himself (or the rest of the galaxy) that he doesn't want Spock. OR Kirk never wanted all those women--they were simply substitutes for what he wanted and couldn't have. I hate this. I really hate this. I can't tell you how much I hate this. I hate it in any story, no matter how much I like the rest of the story. For me, it completely ruins every story in which it appears. I would like to have a code for K/S stories that include this POV so I can avoid them.

The *only* K/S stories I like contain these sentiments! In fact, if it's not explicit, I assume this is the case. Whenever Kirk *pretends* to love a woman, I see it as such. And no, this is *not* an AU, this is the real world for me and many other slash fans. Your objections are totally illogical to me, and I will address your points in order:

1. It demeans women.

You say this demeans women. Are you then saying that the opposite case demeans gay men? I certainly don't think so. And if you really think it's impossible to have sex with or tender feelings for someone you don't love, I'll begin to wonder what rock you grew up under.

2. It demeans Spock.

You say it demeans the "sexiness" of Spock, implying that he can only be sexually appealing to women. Huh?

3. It demeans Kirk. I don't think he's this cruel/thoughtless/ungentlemanly. Even when he's seducing a woman purely in the line of duty (that silver trash skanky chick on Triskelion comes to mind), he doesn't treat them badly. He has some feeling for them. He does not lead them on to believe in some impossible future with him.

And you say it demeans Kirk, implying he doesn't respect the women he has seduced. I disagree with this as well. It's easy (IMHO) to have sex with someone you don't love or don't want, and you can still respect them. People do it for all sorts of reasons: physical release, political maneuvering, or a need for human comfort, to name a few. I never heard him making any promises in canon.

[Jungle Kitty]: Keep in mind that I'm talking about a pseudo-Kirk who indeed does not respect those women. I never said that canon-Kirk made promises to all those women. That's part of the respect--not making false promises, not raising false expectations. As I explained in point 1, I regard using people to hide/deny your sexuality as demeaning (actually to both parties) and it certainly shows a lack of regard/respect for your partner.

It's difficult and orders-of-magnitude more rewarding to finally have the one you *do* love. And you can still respect all those others who came before, the ones who fade into insignicance compared to the only one for you.

4. It isn't Kirk.

Finally, you say: "It isn't Kirk." This is *your* opinion. I think others have made the case in spades that Kirk is in love with Spock, and always has been, albeit in denial. This is *not* an AU. This is Trek, this is the phenomenological basis for all slash, and I believe you're in the minority.

[Jungle Kitty]: Yes, it is just my opinion. I have given the reasons for it. What are your reasons, other than it's *your* opinion?

Every reader/writer has the right to their own opinion and preferences, and you certainly have a right to yours. I also have a right not to read Mary Sues (ie, Captain Brandt), nor do I read hetsmut as a rule. I'll give it a try (and I did give yours a try), but now I hit the delete key when I see "Jungle Kitty" and "K/f". I'm sorry you need to read a bit farther to find that whatever K/S writer who has precipitated this rant has an opinion you don't agree with. But have you heard me telling you not to post that K/f drivel? No, and you never wouldn't have if you hadn't asked for a response, and a public one at that.

[Jungle Kitty]: Sorry you could not see the humor in that statement. And I'll take your lack of humor as the reason you don't appreciate the Captain Brandt stories. And I'll say this before you remind me again--that's just my opinion. Hey, I asked for a public discussion and I don't regret it. I just wish you had something to add to it.

JTK likes, wants, and enjoys women.

Whatever happened to infinite diversity? This is only your *opinion*. There are other ones out here, believe me!

Not everyone is gay. Not everyone is het. And not everyone is bi, as you seem to believe. IMHO, the boyz are happier with each other than with women, and I like it that way.

Geez!

Smaragd, stepping down off the soapbox and wondering what the hell happened up there.

[Jungle Kitty]: Well, first of all, I sincerely believe what I wrote and I know that others do not feel that way. They're entitled, as am I. I wanted to know*why*.

[Jungle Kitty]: I'm asking myself why I'm bothering to reply to you since all you seem to do is insult me for raising a legitimate question and your only justification seems to be, "That's just your opinion." But in hopes that other, more rational, people will respond to this, I want to say--yes, it's my opinion and I've stated my reasons for it. What are *your* reasons?

[Jungle Kitty]: Secondly, I expected this sort of reaction. But the newsgroup has been getting rather tame lately. We needed something like this. IMHO. And again, it's only my opinion. <grin>

[Jungle Kitty]: Thirdly, are you saying that I should only post opinions that others will agree with? That hardly seems worthwhile. And certainly not true to IDIC.

[Jen]:

Dear Jungle Kitty,

I agree with you totally, however I think that your arguement could extend to all the Trek pairings, not just K/S. I have read and enjoyed many of your stories as well as many of Greywolf's, but I'm not a K/S fan. I enjoy the stories you write mostly because of the noticable lack of Bovine Residue on my monitor after reading your stories. I'm a big time follower of G/B and I hate the fact that everyone writes Julian as though he were some sort of niave simpleton who doesn't even get the fact that, damn, is that a boner I'm sprouting or is this a strange allergy to Cardassian tailors?

[...]

I didn't mean to hog the floor but I think a little reality is called for here. Be they K/S, G/B, O/G, C/P, P/K, or one of many thousands of other slashes, Jungle Kitty's arguments fit. At the very least, if all you're after is a good PWP, why even mention their past sexual history? Just buckle up and go for a WHAM, BAM, PASS THE LUBE-CAN and be done. To me, and I'm sure to many of you, the pleasure I recieve out of reading these stories has more to do with the unconventional romance it represents then the possibility that, damn, I might have had a shot and blew it because some guy 'turned' my favorite character gay. Jungle Kitty was right on when she argued that such a premise was demeaning to the character(s), the writer, and to the readers. POWER TO THE PEOPLE MY JUNGLE SISTER!!!!! (Jen realizing she has just gone way the hell overboard and is blushing furiously)

Bye!!!

Emily Salzfass:

I agree. I agree a lot. I hope I haven't terrified folks into thinking I'm some clinical academic by announcing that I'm studying Trekfic, so let me say that I'm writing this as an AUTHOR and a FAN, not an academic.

That said: I don't read K/S (save for a couple authors whose work I really enjoy), but then, this problem isn't isolated to K/S. In my who's who, I confessed: My name is Emily and I dig canon. That's just the way it is. When something seems so terrifically out of character as this K/S thing, it irks me. It BEYOND irks me.

This sentiment is particularly jarring in a K/S story written from the standpoint that humans in general and/or Kirk in particular are not hung up on a sex partner's gender (one of the nicer things about 23rd Century Earth IMHO). In that case, why would he chase *women* if he wanted a Spock substitute? Wouldn't he look for a tall, dark, handsome *man* who's turned on by sandalwood?

Oh, I *wish*! My personal pet peeve comes most frequenly in reading f/f slash (not m/m slash so much...I wonder why) when the characters start talking about how they've never had a homosexual experience before, and, oh, this feels so weird, and, oh, I don't know what this means about my sexuality...

And my claws extend and my fangs come out and I want to shout: Hello! This is the 24th Century, here! OUR goddamned 24th century that WE made (with the help of TPTB)! And there has been NOTHING in canon to suggest that there should be anything more peculiar about a homosexual relationship (at least in the Federation/other familiar species) than a heterosexual one. Think "Rejoined;" never an eyebrow raised at the f/f question. A non-question.

And, aside from being non-canon-supported, it's no help to the VVP-style political movement to suggest that there will be nothing "queer" about homosexual relations in the future. That's our responsibility (well, mine, as a queer Trek writer) and it should REALLY be taken. So, like Kitty's reaction to Kirk suggesting that his female lovers were a "replacement" for Spock, I freak out when I come across this sentiment in slash, and it taints the whole piece, no matter how good the piece is.

Point being, perhaps there SHOULD be an "I Stray From Canon" warning label on new pieces. Folks can write whatever they want, and I'm sure that some writers really feel that homosexuality will still carry a peculiar air in the 24th century, just as I'm sure some writers really think that Kirk's woman-loving was a front for his love for Spock. And, well, okay. There's not much I can do about it. But it *does* bother me, and it *does* interfere with my desire to really revel in f/f slash, because it's NOT the free utopic universe I want it to be.

Is there anything productive we can do about this? Probably not. But I had to get it off my chest...

Thanks, Kitty, for voicing this!

Mary Ellen Curtin:

Dear Miss Kitty:

You make some good points in your rant, with some of which I even agree . . .

BUT

In a way, I don't want to discuss this with you. Instead, I want to see the story you write.

You're an artist, and although you can be persuasive about *telling* us what Kirk is like, you are most persuasive (more so than I could be) when you *show* us.

So take up your own gauntlet. Give us a long Kirk story, K/S or otherwise, that makes us truly understand how his guts (and other body parts) work. Make us live in his skin: I have complete faith in your ability to put us there.

Your rant does point up one of the problems with shared-world writing, and one of the reasons shared worlds do not traditionally bring out writers' best work.

It is very hard for people to have both an inner conviction of rightness and a tolerance for other people's views. Without that inner conviction, that drive to show the audience how things really are, you won't deliver your best work; but without tolerance, you won't be able to work within the constraints of the shared world.

Your feeling, Jungle Kitty, that some ways of showing Kirk's character are *wrong, wrong, wrong* is part of what makes your own writing so good. It's not as big a part as your talent and insight, but it's an important ingredient: the fire in the belly.

But the rest of us, and especially those of us who don't write TOS, can afford to be more broad-minded. Great writers have a lower tolerance for poor writing than readers do; and we readers have something of an obligation to be more tolerant than you can afford to be.

After all, some of the people whose writing you now find sub-par may, with proper encouragement and criticism, grow up to add things to The TrekFic Project that are as important as Brandt or "The Life That Lies Behind" or "The Edge".

Yours with deepest respect, Mary Ellen

Killashandra:

One thing I've learned from everyone on ASCEM is that a well-written story can convince me of *anything.* Spock/Chekov? Yep, I was convinced. Picard/Spock? Arachne got me. A rape story? Jungle Kitty's own The Life that Lies Before won me over. A/U? Greywolf changed my whole opinion on the subject. Let's not generalize. ;-) Actually, I agree with JK that the evidence is strong that JTK likes, wants and enjoys women. But I like to be proved wrong, too...

...when Kirk is split in two, "Wolf" Kirk goes after Janice Rand, not Spock. "Wolf" Kirk has no sense of right or wrong, proper or improper. So at least at that point, Kirk wanted a particular woman more than he wanted Spock. Maybe he didn't want Spock at all at that point.

I just wanted to say, that scene seems to imply that Wolf Kirk actually intends to *rape* Janice. That crime has nothing to do with passion, love or desire. I don't think that proves anything. He was seeking a victim, not a tryst.

This doesn't really answer JK's rant, exactly, but I thought it was important to recognize the distinction.

[Brancher]:

Jungle Kitty,

I like your work fine, and you've paid your dues in this group and in the world of fanfic, so I know you're serious and not trolling. And I recognize your sentiments -- I have similar revulsions to certain characterizations. Hell, I'm half-ready to blast the folks at alt.x-files.creative for continually protraying Scully as this quivering mass of emotion...but that's another post. Suffice to say I see where you're coming from.

Up to a point. Do you honestly think that JTK is seriously in love with and committed to each and every of the alien babes he seems to score episode after episode? He *can't* be; he knows he has to leave when that particular mission is up and he's destroyed the evil computer or negotiated peace between the nations or whathaveyou. Now, there's a reason he acts this way, he's otherwise a good person and you're right, he's not disrespectful of these women. But to quote Arthur Miller, he gives them the promise that a horse gives a mare. Why?

Well, I never knew til K/S hit me on the head (Killa's Turning Point -- why does this seem to be so many people's inaugural slash-deflowering story?) Now it seems to make sense. For me, he's on the run from his feelings for Spock, for whatever reason. Many people more talented than I have offered a variety of reasons -- you've read the fic, you know them as well as I do. As for this somehow denigrating Spock -- I think it speaks to his incredible sexiness and pull that Kirk has to run so *hard*.

As for homophobia: Even if you don't harbour prejudices, it is still possible to harbour ideas about one'self which are both terribly important to you and incorrect, and this is how I see JTK and his women...and his women...and his women. He's out to prove *something*. What it is exactly is up to us, each as individuals watching the show and reading/writing the fic.

As always, I go back to the Rule Zero of fanfic: if you can pull it off, you can pull it off. If you can make, say, Kira/Quark believable, then you are Leo Tolstoy, but I won't quibble canon to you.

In the future I'll try to mark any stories I might write.

[Kimbuck3]:

Please keep in mind that I read K/S, I write K/S, I enjoy K/S. But some (thankfully, not many) K/S stories include this sort of sentiment: Kirk has had all those women to prove to himself (or the rest of the galaxy) that he doesn't want Spock. OR Kirk never wanted all those women--they were simply substitutes for what he wanted and couldn't have.

Well, JungleKitty, I enjoyed your rant. I think everyone should have a chance to blow off steam about things that bug them -- especially when they do it with a sense of humor.<g>

However, I must disagree with the part of your post that I've copied above. You state that the elements you've named above play a part in "some (thankfully, not many)" K/S stories. I have to say that I've read *hundreds* of K/S stories, and I can't think of *one* where Kirk was sleeping with women either to prove he wasn't attracted to Spock or as a substitute for Spock.

Now, obviously, you have read a story or two with those elements that I haven't read. (Maybe you can e-mail me privately and tell me which one[s]. I'd be curious to know.) But I really don't think that the dynamic you describe above plays a significant part in the K/S world.

I *have* read some stories where Kirk was promiscuous with women because he had problems with intimacy. Or because he couldn't figure out a way to reconcile his committment to the Enterprise with a serious relationship with one woman. But those issues were not related to Spock specifically, the way you describe above.

JTK likes, wants, and enjoys women. To me, this is so basic to his character that to deny it is more than just artistic license or non-canon.

Well, I don't think Kirk's relationship with women is all that plain and simple. He seduces many women throughout the series in order to get information or to escape. You're right, he doesn't treat them badly, but he does use them. And that would have to play a part in his character. He knows he can turn on the charm and the smile, and twist many (not all) women around his little finger. He manipulates them to get what he wants -- most coldly, I think, in "Conscious of the King" when he seduces Lenore Karidian because he suspects her father is Kodos the Executioner.

He only has a few relationships with women that appear to be serious. Edith, Miramanee, Rayna, (Ruth, Areel Shaw and Janice Lester, all from his past). Only two of those relationships ended "normally", Ruth and Areel. The rest of them ended tragically. Again, what effect would this have on Kirk's personality and his desire to form a bond with someone -- female or male.

Predatrix:

This particular mess-up has been floating around slash for some time. It's the reverse of the "I'm-not-gay-I-just-want-to-suck-Spock's-cock" argument. It's just a sign of ineptitude when done in this visible and uncomfortable way. It's possible to say that K & S have something rather special together without setting off the reader's bullshit detectors, just as it's possible to suggest that K may have trouble coming to terms w/ his bisexual side, but done by a very clodhopping writer the result may read as slamming straight women or gay men.

I think this particular little horror is much less common now: early slash (original K/S print fic, probably) may have dealt w/ the question of the character's canonical orientation by "shouting" (exposition and overstatement) that Kirk is not really gay, or conversely that his feeling for Spock is passing the love of women, but by now I should certainly hope that slash fandom is a little more sophisticated.

It's perfectly possible for good writers to suggest that the dead-girlfriend-of-the-week syndrome was a retreat from intimacy (K wanting no rivals to his marriage to his ship?) -- that's practically canon. I think it's just a hamfisted cross between this and trad romance Nothing-Ever-Felt-Like-*This* (which I tune out of unless written *awfully well*) that comes across as the kind of story you hate, although since I don't have much knowledge of early KS I may be guessing wrong.

Fan Comments: On Other Usenet Posts

[Kimbuck3]:

Yes, I agree that Kirk certainly feels differently toward the different women he encounters in TOS. Some are serious affairs of the heart, while others are rather mindless flirtations, (like Janice Rand.) Sometimes, he's controlled by an outside force, (ie. Elaan of Troyius or Dr. Noel in "Dagger of the Mind.")

However, it's also true that in almost every episode where he interacts with/seduces a woman, it is done to get the information he needs, or to get help escaping. For example, "What are Little Girls...", "Catspaw", "Gamesters of....", "By Any Other Name", "Mark of Gideon", etc, etc, etc.

(I must admit to being a major Wild Wild West fan, and James West does the exact same thing, week after week, only *much* worse.)

Now, can you imagine the outrage, the FUROR, if TPTB had Janeway seducing and charming men every week in order to get out of trouble or keep Voyager safe???

Why don't we ever seem to notice this about Kirk? Why is it he just has this reputation as the horny space stud who chases every green-skinned babe that comes his way? In fact, he routinely uses his physical appearance, his smile and his charm to manipulate these women. In a very clear and calculating way. He's not genuinely interested in them, and I don't think *these* type of episodes prove that JTK was totally hot for the ladies. If there had been a situation where using his charm on a *man* would have gotten them out of a jam, I'm almost certain he would have done it.

I'm not saying this willingness to use his, um, talents, is a bad thing or a flaw in his character. I just find it very interesting....

By the way, Spock does this same thing *once* with the Romulan Commander. And everyone seems to notice the significance of that incident. Yet, we hardly blink when JTK does it so frequently.

[Jane]:

I was tempted to reply to the net, saying that mixed race slash was disgusting, and see if anyone would get as worked up about that as they have over what you said. Haven't seen such a deluge of mail on one topic for a long time.

I think you have to bear in mind that JTK is the ultimate bluffer and manipulator, and we only see what he chooses to show on TV (in fanfic, of course, we may get his inner thoughts), so he could be chasing skirt for any reason he pleases, at any point. I never got the impression that he would allow *any* of the women he met/romanced to come between him and what he really cares about, the Enterprise & Spock package, with or without sex. It never struck me either that he was ever sincere or caring, but I tend not to want to explore the whole m/f romance thing in Trek, because I suspect my own hangups and insecurities are too close to the surface. All those damn leggy blondes, that narrow, narrow picture of the only way to be a successful woman!

What always offends me most, though, is the Kirk-cares-deeply-about-his-crew myth. He surely never furthers their careers, allows them leadership experience, or does much else that demonstrates anything beyond following the easy bits of the personnel manual. It's not so much that he does anything *wrong*, more that he never does the little things right. A co-writer of mine, who's a speech communication specialist, pointed out to me once that he rarely makes eye contact, or initiates a significant verbal interaction, with male crewmembers. Easy to explain in critiquing an actor and a TV show, harder to make it work in fanfiction.

Oh, and whoever called Brandt a Mary Sue... depends exactly how you define Mary Sue, I suppose, but if she is, you should take it as a badge of honour. You've raised the whole genre to a new level.

[Brancher]:

Woah, there. I think he *is* having a good time with the women. In fact, I think he's having a better time than he would have with Spock.

Hunh?

That's right. I think it's easier for him to put on the charm and score a luscious native babe than to sweat out a real relationship with Spock. Think about it: Spock cannot be a one-time thing. Unlike the women, who change every week, Spock is always there. He's a necessary element of Kirk's life, along with McCoy and the ship. There is some evidence to suggest that he is a pair-bonder, an all-or-nothing man. At the same time he's intoxicatingly attractive. So it's a big problem. To have him means a real commitment, and commitments are painful, chronic conditions. I see this as being a central hurdle for K/S.

Jesus, I should go write some fanfic already.

[...]

In some ways I think we're arguing semantics -- that your version of the character and mine are closer than they seem. Maybe it's that my experience with infidelity lead me to think it's symptomatic of personality problems, rather than a simple life choice. But I don't buy the "It was never like this with a woman" line either. No rock is going to hit JTK on the head and persuade him that he was queer all along. And the fanfic I like best is the fanfic that makes use of precisely those weird grey gaps in between canon and the slash reading of canon, the contradictions in the characters, the fact that *nothing* in any relationship is ever terribly simple.

-Brancher, off to write some ambiguous fiction.

[Smaragd, the only fan who wrote the most forceful reply to Jungle Kitty]:

Thanks for your response; it seems we crossed meanings several times, and I look forward to clearing things up. I also apologize (again) for airing my personal opinions on the newsgroup, at JK's request. I personally would rather write stories to demonstrate The Way I Think Things Ought To Be.

I'm also assuming I can <snip> a lot of this and still make sense. (Actually, by this point, I'm guessing there's only the two of us reading this, so what the heck.) FYI, I received messages from two of our ASCEML friends (OK, not an overwhelming number) saying "thanks for saying what I was thinking". So maybe there are a few lurkers following this whole thing.

What it seems you are really asking for is the "defense of slash" I've seen on a few sites. I'll try to articulate my view of it here, but please remember others have certainly said it better.

Although there is a lot of m/f erotica out there, IMHO, the most interesting, innovative, and thought-provoking stories and discussion are about m/m slash. That may be because women (who, IMHO, are more interesting, innovative, and thought-provoking people) happen to write m/m slash, but that's beside the point. I've found that m/f erotica tends to reflect reality, tends to reflect stereotypes, tends to reflect the banal world we live in. Slash, OTOH, highlights differences and possibilities. I'll try to support this supposition in the remainder of this post.

[Kim Brotherton]: I think there was a thread not so long ago on this topic : that slash is somehow 'better', more innovative, than hetsmut. I've always felt that the sex of the people involved in the story was irrelevant to how innovative it was. To me, it is how well it is told, how deep the author goes into the motivations of the

characters which make a story more original and more interesting. Simply because a story is slash, it does not follow that the plot is less or more 'stereotypical' or 'banal' than a het story.

[Kim Brotherton]: I won't argue the K/S of this topic : I feel I don't know enough about TOS to make a case. But this comment of yours burnt me a little. I object to people arbitrarily classifying work as 'lesser' simply because it doesn't contain the elements they enjoy.

[Kim Brotherton]: That might have something to do with the fact that I write hetsmut. :) LLAP Kim

Now, onto the misunderstandings:

Again, I'll posit that Kirk respects all those who came before as people, he's just not interested in them as lovers. And I'll also say that most of the stories I remember, Kirk is not *actively* denying his sexuality, he's sleeping with these women because he thinks that's what he wants, or he thinks that's what society wants of him, or he thinks the unemotional Mr Spock will not return his feelings, or one of a hundred reasons he's not in bed with the one he <down deep> knows he really wants. He's not using these women, he's trying to find a path to happiness that doesn't involve sex with Spock, and that's impossible, as all slashers know ;>

[...]

This is the crux of it, apparently. IMHO, a heterosexual Kirk is dull to read about. Why? I think the reason is because in today's world at least, heterosexuality is easy. Even outrageous heterosexuality is normal and accepted. I can even go down the street and buy lacy and leather underwear, riding crops, restraints, clamps of any shape and size, and all of it is *acceptable*. Geesh, there's a restaurant in NYC where you can pay to have someone in dominatrix gear force you to eat out of a dog bowl.

We're trying to push some boundaries here, and for me, pushing past the het stereotype is one way to do it. And it's been pointed out here, and other places, that f/f is readily acceptable in erotica as well. It's m/m that most people seem to have a problem with; it makes them think too much.

[...]

I appreciate that we're all here to find what works for us. As for the reason I don't appreciate Captain Brandt stories, it goes a bit deeper than that. Like most het stories, I feel they are lacking emotion (ie, love, angst) which I find most interesting in erotica. Hey, I need a hint of plot even in a PWP! And to go a bit deeper, like I said about three pages ago, het stories tend to reflect reality a little too much for me. I don't like to find myself comparing my body to the bodies involved, or my self to the selves involved. Erotica takes the "me" out of sex and makes it just sex, something I can enjoy without getting "me" into it.

Don't get me wrong, I *like* my body, and I like myself. And I like sex, I like it *a lot*. After I've read a story, I might choose to relate it to my personal self at a later time. In fact, there have been numerous stories I've read that have lead to very innovative and rewarding fuck-sessions with my SO. This is probably why he puts up with this obsession, er, interest, of mine ;>

But I don't "get" MarySues, and I don't "get" m/f. (OK, OK, most of the time, as I shocked myself utterly and wrote a P/T. But it's not a "normal" P/T!)

[Jungle Kitty]:

It sounds here like you're interpreting what I said as a rejection of m/m (and possibly f/f) pairings which is not at all what I meant. And I definitely was *not* saying that Kirk should only appear in m/f sexual situations. I was asking why people feel the need to deny, pooh-pooh or wish away his past sexual history once he gets together with Spock. I was asking for an explanation of this particular aspect of K/S that I simply don't get.

I've heard from a number of people (not in response to this rant, other topics) saying something like "I don't like to see Kirk with anyone else but Spock." Then they go on to compliment Captain Brandt. (Well, you brought her up. <grin>) Fine. We all have our preferred pairings. But I submit that if you feel that all of Kirk's past relationships were meaningless or that those were unpleasant experiences for the captain or that he was always acting out of some strange compulsion other than choice, you are in denial and should watch an episode or two.

[...]

In fact I think we've rarely seen him in a situation that actually involved love. Fondness, friendship, need for companionship, simple diversion/desire--yes to all. But rarely love. But my point was he enjoyed it. He wasn't hiding from something, running away, doing something he didn't really want to do. He liked it. He really liked it.

[...]

...I never said I could only accept a heterosexual Kirk. Why would I write K/S if that was the case? What I don't buy is Kirk in the closet, *consciously* putting on a heterosexual act to prove some sort of point. And I'm not saying closeted people aren't interesting, aren't worthy of our attention. I'm simply saying I don't believe Kirk is one of them.

Many people have pointed out that there could be a hundred reasons why he doesn't feel free, comfortable, whatever about pursuing Spock. Yes, of course. That's the major angst of K/S (from both K & S) and is the backbone of a large chunk of the K/S stories. Hell, I've written that sort of thing. I just feel that the evidence of Kirk enjoying women is too strong to deny. It's part of him. I went on at some length in the original post, trying to be very clear that I wasn't saying Spock can't be part of the equation. The most significant relationship of Kirk's life? Sure. We wouldn't have much K/S if it was just a bunch of casual fucks. But I do not accept Kirk's prior relationships as cheap, meaningless, mistaken. I don't think he views those women as the biological equivalent of inflatable dates.

And while I'm clarifying, I keep talking about women because, at least onscreen, that's all we ever saw. Lots of people assume earlier male lovers and again, I've written that and I've also written Spock being his first. But I would apply this to all earlier relationships. They may become less meaningful in the light of Spock, but they do not become meaningless.

[Alara Rogers]:

I think part of the problem here is that Smaragd is confusing "Kirk loves Spock" with "Kirk is exclusively homosexual." If you are a bisexual, and you fall madly in love, there is absolutely no reason why that person cannot be the be-all and end-all of your sex life, the best fuck you ever had, sexier to you than anyone you've ever been with, and still have it not invalidate that you are bisexual. That is, just because Kirk loves Spock, and now that he's had Spock he;s never going to be with *anyone* else, woman or man, does not men he did not find the women he slept with sexy. it did not mean he wasn't attracted to them. it just means he loves Spock and he didn't love them.

I kind of see the attitude that "if character X falls in love with same-sex character Y, it must mean that he was always exclusively gay, and just in denial" as a denigration of bisexuality. It's saying that *if* you are a man, and you love another man, anything you ever felt for women has to be wrong or invalid. Which isn't true. Kirk can *prefer* women but be in love with Spock. The human mind, and human sexuality, are very complex things. A person who has always identified themselves as het can find themselves falling in love with a person of the same sex so totally and utterly that it makes all their previous loves pale by comparison, yet it does not *invalidate* them. It does not say, necessarily, "well you were always really gay, and now that you've found your One True, you won't find women sexy at all." That *could* happen, but it's a lot more likely to happen in the repressed, sexaphobic, homophobic 20th Century to people with much less willpower and willingness to break the rules than James T. Kirk in the enlightened 23rd century.

I *personally* prefer K and S to be friends, not lovers, but I can enjoy reading a good slash story between them. However, if someone tries to tell me that Kirk was always gay, he just didn't want to admit it until he fell in love with Spock, I see that person as projecting monosexual and 20th century mores onto characters who exist in a much more enlightened time. If Kirk is bi, and he finds women *more* sexually attractive than men on average, that doesn't mean that he can't fall head over heels with Spock and think *Spock* is the sexiest thing ever. And just because he thinks Spock is the sexiest thing ever doesn't mean he can't find women attractive too (though he better not sleep with them if he's with Spock, as if he hurts my Vulcan I'll kick his ass. :-))