XFC content changes

Meta
Title:	XFC content changes
Creator:	Laurie Haynes
Date(s):	July 27, 2001
Medium:	online post, and subsequent fan comments
Fandom:	The X-Files
Topic:
External Links:	page 1; [ archive link page 1], page 2; archive link page 2, page 3; archive link page 3, page 4; [ archive link page 4], page 5; [ archive link page 5], page 6; [ archive link page 6], page 7; [ archive link page 7],
Click here for related articles on Fanlore.

XFC content changes was a 2001 post on alt.tv.x-files.creative by Laurie Haynes.

Some Topics Discussed

• control of fic access and archiving
• The X-Files
• XFC-ATXC and XFC-no-ATXC
• an archive owner's intense hatred of fic that mentioned, featured, or included the character of John Doggett, as well as anything having to do with seasons of The X-Files after the seventh season
• who owns access, who owns gateways?
• queenmaking, land grabs, taking credit for things, powerplays
• a fan writes a filk and fans go wild for jello
• Xemplary
• sockpuppeting, accusations of
• observations that slash is now mostly being posted elsewhere
• the good old days when everyone loved each other and got along
• increased options leading to fractured fandom and less tolerance for differences

The Post

XFC-ATXC and XFC-no_ATXC will now only accept fanfic featuring characters from Seasons 1-7 only (this includes Mulder and Scully's son, William) or characters of the author's creation.

I understand some of you will be unhappy with these changes, but as the owner, I have decided to make the XFC lists only for Classic X-Files fanfic. There are other lists which are specialty lists for characters from Season 8 and on, and other lists which accept everything. Just check www.yahoogroups.com for lists that have this type of fanfic, if that is what you are looking for.

I had considered this a few months ago, but now, I have made a final decision. This is not intended to PREVENT anyone from writing what they wish, it is just intended to make this list for the posting of X-Files Classic fanfic only (which for most people means those stories for characters from Seasons 1-7 only).

Fan Comments: At the Post

Deslea: I'm not thrilled, but hey, it's your list. Just one question: how is William a Season 1-7 character? Or are you counting him in embryo?

[T h r e a d s]: i know 'classic' can be a strictly IMHO view point, but really now, season seven classic? i call season 1-4 classic, largely do to the fact that they're the older seasons. but a shipper gets what a shipper wants.

[ScullyDana]: > I understand some of you will be unhappy with these changes, but as the owner, I have decided to make the XFC lists only for Classic X-Files fanfic.

So, if you know people won't be happy, then why do you insist on making people unhappy? Do you think of others beside yourself, Laurie?

I've been reading your tirades since the whole DD wants to leave X-Files for quite some time now. Yawn.

Grow up. Pick up your toys and go play elsewhere. If you can't think of anyone beside yourself and if you must insist on throwing temper tantrums so you can draw attention to yourself, I certainly don't want you in the community.

And if this is perceived as a personal attack, well then, you've perceived correctly.

You are childish, selfish, immature, bitter, a fair weather friend and narrow-minded. If I were Chris Carter, I certainly wouldn't want you for a fan, even for just the first 7 seasons.

Give it up and go away. Stop taking the joy away from the show and the community. Stop thinking of only yourself.

And if any of you get on the "freedom of speech bandwagon", this has nothing to do with freedom of speech.

This is just a show. If you don't like, don't watch it and don't inflict your negativity onto others.

Grow up, Laurie, pick up your toys and go home.

As a community, let's "shut" Laurie's negativity out. I hereby encourage anyone who is subscribed to her list to unsubscribe. Do it for the community. Let's not go down as the fanfic community that became childish and stupid because the show they loved changed and they couldn't keep up with the change.

ScullyDana - A fan who is sick of the childishness amongst Philes.

[Jennifer]: You seem to have missed a key point which you concede--it is HER list. If she wishes to limit it to seasons 1-7, that is her choice. Those who do not like it will unsubscribe, those who don't mind will stay. Griping and moaning about it isn't going to change her mind. And as far as Laurie "embarassing the yourself and irritiating many in this community," pot shouldn't call the kettle black. I thought that Laurie's post, while I don't agree with it, was at least adult and mature. Yours, on the other hand, made me wonder who was really acting "childish, selfish, immature" and "bitter." For someone who says she is "A fan who is sick of the childishness amongst Philes" you seem to be doing a fair imatation of a child.

[Langleigh]: Brava!!!! This is inspiring! And so, true! The show *has* changed, as it *needed* to inorder to stay afloat for so many seasons. We , as fans, need to learn to roll with the changes, not bitch and moan about them... and certainly not discriminate against fans or characters (or seasons) based on those changes.

>And as far as Laurie "embarassing the yourself and irritiating many in this community," pot shouldn't call the kettle black. I thought that Laurie's post, while I don't agree with it, was at least adult and mature

Her *post* was fairly mature, that I'll grant you. However, her tactics and reasoning is juvenile and snippy.

From what I hear, many people on her own lists do not agree withher. I run my own mailing lists and despite them being mine, they are ALSO a community. I wouldn't make a drastic change without polling the whole list for their opinion and respecting their decision. Laurie is not taking her list member's opinions into consideration. She is not being democratic or reasonable. She's being selfish. Selfish people should not run mailing lists, because they fail to acknowledge the feelings of the community they founded.

Langleigh who is also sick of the crap

[Lysandra]:

> Grow up. Pick up your toys and go play elsewhere. If you can't think of anyone beside yourself and if you must insist on throwing temper tantrums so you can draw attention to yourself, I certainly don't want you in the community.

ScullyDana,

I see your point, but the "community" is pretty much public and whoever wants to participate is allowed, especially here on the newsgroup.

XFC is Laurie's private community, as far as I know. She's the listmom and archivist, and it's her list to do with as she pleases. If you don't want to play by her rules, and don't wish to pay attention to her, you can ignore her fairly well by unsubscribing from XFC as you yourself suggested, and by blocking her with your e-mail and newsgroup controls if you have them.

I've done that with people whose posts I'm uninterested in reading, and it does work, up to a point. I haven't yet been strong enough to avoid reading *replies* to these people's rants, so I often end up getting the gist of their posts anyway. But as a rule I don't feel the need to reply to the originals since they don't end up in my mailbox, and the first time I see them, it's because someone else has already responded on the newsgroup.

You can feed most of your fanfic needs by joining XFF and checking Ephemeral which gets most stories posted to XFC and XFF. Chronicle X Lite has a list of all kinds of specialty archives on their "Classifieds" page. There are also plenty of other mailing lists without the kinds of restrictions now imposed on XFC -- PhoenixFic, for instance.

> Let's not go down as the fanfic community that became childish and stupid because the show they loved changed and they couldn't keep up with the change.

I don't really agree with your view here. Firstly, most people who aren't into fanfic think we're all crazy anyhow. <g> And anyone who *is* into fandom pretty much knows that along with all the nice, reasonable fans, there are trolls, and freaks, and people who don't have a firm grasp on reality. It just comes with the territory.

I still like "The X-Files." I like Mulder, and Scully, and Skinner, and Doggett, and maybe even Reyes, once the writers figure out what they're going to do with her. <g> But I can understand when people's enthusiasm wanes. I used to watch "ER," but don't anymore. I loved the first three "Star Wars" movies but you can't make me like "The Phantom Menace." If people no longer love "The X-Files" isn't it their right to watch and discuss the earlier seasons they do still enjoy? Are you going to force them to love it all or not at all? Good luck. <g>

In fandoms, people come, people go, people overstay their welcomes. I can't make people finish their WIPs, I can't bring back great authors who have left the fandom, I can't make people like characters they don't, and I can't stop people from writing crappy stories. I can only control what *I* do -- so I rarely read works in progress until they're done, I delete bad fics, and I try not to pay attention to trolls and the like. I used to read and post to XFC, but I unsubscribed when I no longer wanted to participate on a list where I didn't agree with the policies. My stories are no longer archived at Xemplary, either. I don't consider it a great loss, and I'm sure I'm not missed over there. My stories are still fairly easy to find for anyone who wants to read them.

As "The X-Files" has changed, so has the community. I'm quite happy to keep up with the changes, and roll with them, and do what works for me. Are you?

= Robbie =

[Fiona McFee]: Hey - her toys, her game. You don't agree, get your own toys. Not saying that she's objectively right or wrong, but who are you to say what she can do with something she set up and she does the work on. What sort of tantrum are you throwing when you want to make someone do what you want with their lives rather than take some positive action yourself and set up your own list??

[...]

And this post is going too far in the other direction. Laurie has an absolute, indisputable right to do whatever she wants with her list and her archive. But other people have an equally valid right to express their opinions of her decisions. They also have a right to decide not to participate on her list, and they have a right to urge others to follow suit.

[SIRPAUL 10]: Laurie is a hero. She's keeping the archive safe from the pollution of season 8. The reaction I'm seeing to the classic X-file idea is almost all positive.

{{Quotation| [ [[Mrs. Fish] ]: > XFC-ATXC and XFC-no_ATXC will now only accept fanfic featuring characters from Seasons 1-7 only (this includes Mulder and Scully's son, William) or characters of the author's creation.

You know the really sad thing about this is (and this goes for all the other people with 'Season 8 doesn't exist syndrome') is that they're putting the blame on the wrong person/character.

Robert Patrick/Doggett didn't change the show. David "I'm tired of doing this" Duchovny did. He's the one who wanted off. He's the one who wanted to spend more time with his family. He's the one who wanted to branch off and expand and do other things. More power to him. But be realistic and put the blame where it belongs. You don't like the direction the show took - blame it on Duchovny and Carter and stop whining! You don't like the show any more? Then stop watching and go away. Join another fandom that you do enjoy and leave the rest of us alone.

I don't understand the logic behind pretending something didn't happen. We all know it did. And no amount of pretending will change that. It's fact; it's documented.

And it seems to me that the Shippers are cutting their own throats by eliminating Season 8. After all, what about 'the kiss' at the end of Existence? And how in the heck can you include William? He wasn't part of 'classic XF'? Guess Scully's going to be pregnant forever in your little world.

This is as bad as those narrow-minded idiots on the Doggett haters site.}}

[T h r e a d s]: *sighs* my iritation over laurie's choice for her group _is not_ that she prefers mulder in his vintage days, it's that she denies the existence of season 8. i know she never said that, but based on the fact that william scully is allowed into her postings says a lot. william was a season 8 character; the 'embryo' reason is true, but pretty lame considering there was the huge baby arc all throughout the eighth season, and the season finale was completely centered around his birth. as sally from 3rd rock put it so eloquently: "don't pee on my shoes and tell me the washer is leaking"

but hey, this is probably what laurie wanted all along. good old fashion conflict.

the x-files is season 1 through 8, a movie, and soon to be a season 9. we've all been introduced to new characters, some we love, some we don't. we've seen it through thick and thin. yet when agent doggett marches on screen, many fans tend to stick their fingers in their ears and go "la la la" in hopes to make it go away. but that's not enough it seems, the dislike is quite strong and drips into their online sites and persona and they all chant : doggett? doggett who??

my ultimate problem is not with laurie at all, she's just a convienent example. it's on a larger scale- the one where a fan denies the facts from a show and creates their own, happy, online archetype where everything is oki-doki, and a lovely, dream-like substitue for the reality.

[and hey, let's call this new x-files, soma! *snicker*]

in all truths, there's a good chance that the people who do this likely hate the show, but can't move on and admit it. hey, it's hurts when you love something, then realize how much you loath it [even if it is a tv show]

the x-files does not belong to carter anymore, it's the fans' now. which is a real shame, i liked doggett.

[again, i don't want to be a snarky bitch even though this has been building up in me for a while, still, i apologize....]

[is it just me, or does the ATXC tend to bring out the worst in people?]

[Vicky]: Quick recap - It is HER newsgroup. Without Laurie there would be NO newsgroup. Its not as if there's a shortage of recent 1-7 fanfic. Those are the only ones I can read anyway (BBC has yet to transmit S8). There's also no shortage of S8 fanfic, trust me its all you can find when you're not looking for it! vicster, awaiting S8 in *groan* October to see what all the fuss is about.

[xfdragon]: a LONG, LONG time ago when most of you hadn't even FOUND the Internet there was only ONE archive... and that wasn't even Gossamer! There were NO personal archives or mailing lists because web space was pricey and only for large institutions....

and then it all exploded...

now anyone can have their own list; their own archive; their own whatever listing whomever they want...

There are archives and mailing lists for anything from Pendrell (remember him?) toDoggett-only (I"m sure if there's not, there will be!) to Spender, the poor 'lil fella...

my point is, as usual, that there is no "right" list or "wrong" list - as long as you have the choice to subscribe or not to the forum, then there's no reason anyone should/could be dictating what content is involved...

heck, I'm sure there's a Skinner/Scully list out there - but you don't see M/S fans screeching to shut that one down...

get over yourselves, please... with the infinite choices available out there, you can sub to any list and visit any archive to meet and match your own preferences without ever seeing something you don't want to...

-)

[Brandon Ray]: Huh. I guess I don't see anything wrong, per se, with someone deciding they don't want to deal with S8. I didn't have a problem with it, but if someone else did -- fine. We all have our own interests and focuses on the show. Some like Mulder and Scully; some like Krycek. Some like romances; some are turned on by the mythology. XF fandom is a pretty big place, and I don't see why people have to leave if they don't care for Season 8/9/whatever. Personally, the cancer arc didn't move me the way it did a lot of people, so I've never written about it. Others have other parts of the series they aren't interested in.

I am sad to see what was once a fine general list narrowing its focus. But it's Laurie's list, and she can do with it as she pleases. I agree with those who think it's a little odd to say only Season 1-7 characters, but then allow people to include William. But it's not my list, and I no longer even sub to it, so it's really not a concern of mine.

The only people who piss me off are the ones who don't want to let those of us who *did* like Season 8 have *our* fun. The ones who chime in on Season 8 threads and disrupt the discussions and such. And I think it's totally weird and wrong that some authors have been flamed for writing about Doggett and Reyes.

I think my favorite comment on this whole subject is someone on the Haven mb's who commented a while back, "Remember the good old days, when all we had to worry about were the shippers and the noromos?"

[Kipler]: Oh, for heaven's sake. I won't bother getting into the politics of the XFC thing, because that doesn't interest me. But please don't presume to categorize those of us who aren't interested in Mulderless XF as "narrow-minded idiots" or "Doggett haters."

I could write an intelligent, well-researched treatise about what was wrong with S8 and what is wrong with the very notion of continuing XF into S9; it would be a perfect case history of the things that are wrong with American television.

Doggett is parenthetical, at best, to the problems caused by TPTB's inability to see past the big trucks of money FOX drove up to their doors. He's a non-issue in the scheme of my XF fandom, and his presence or absence has nothing to do with the reason so many of us will cease watching the show this season. Ditto with reading the fanfic - it's not Doggett-fic I'm that bores me; it's "Gee, we've exhausted our creative integrity on this show but we'll keep on making it because there's money to be had" fic.

[Circe]: I really just can't understand what all the fuss is about. So Laurie decided to make her mailing list--let me repeat that: HER mailing list--open to fiction from Seasons 1-7 only. Big deal. If you don't like it, you don't have to join her list, and if you're already on it, you can unsub. End of problem. There are plenty of lists out there that do allow S8 fic. Join one of those. Or if there isn't one you like, start your own. Why do some of you care so much what other people think of S8? Does it effect your enjoyment of S8? Does it effect your life? If it does, I suggest you seek help. Stop worrying so much about what other people do or don't like and worry about yourself. You'll be happier, trust me. One last thing. For those who think that people who don't care much for S8 should leave the fandom: Screw you!

[Melymbrosia]: I'm confused. How does the fanfic reflect the exhaustion of creative integrity or the moneygrubbing? Or do you just mean that you're not interested in reading fanfic based on episodes and/or a story arc which are subpar?

[Kipler]: I'm not interested in reading fanfic based on characters that I believe were created solely to keep the monetary franchise of the show going. I'll be honest: Doggett and Reyes bore me to tears - except when Reyes is *annoying* me to tears. I don't watch the show for paranormal investigations or explosive cop drama; I watch for the two characters I've come to love. I've never made any secret that I watched the show solely for Mulder and Scully, and they're the only reason I've read fanfic, too. (Just a note: I don't read Skinner fic, Pendrell fic, LGM fic, or Krycek fic, either - unless M and S figure heavily, and preferably angstily!)

IMO, Doggett and Reyes only exist because CC needed to build himself a back-up set of characters in case he decided to sell out and do a S9. I'm not interested in their lives or their futures, because they aren't, to me, part of the XF universe. Technically, I suppose this isn't the fault of the characters of Doggett and Reyes, but hey - they're fictional; they can take it when I don't read the fanfic based on them. I think what's happening here is that authors who do write Doggett fic are taking it very personally that others don't want to read the stuff. And it's not personal; it's just the way it is.

Others may be interested in non-M/S XF and non-M/S fanfic, and more power to them - as long as they don't imply that I'm "narrow-minded" or an "idiot" for feeling the way I do.

[Delynn]: Very well said and thank you so much for making clear the fact that those who choose not to continue with a Mulderless XF aren't automatically "Doggett Haters". I am continuously frustrated by the fact that some believe if you like the Mulder character(and/or Duchovny the actor) you must hate the Doggett character (and/or Robert Patrick the actor). I really did try to find Doggett interesting, he just didn't trip my trigger. I stress it's the character - not the actor. I have liked Robert Patrick for a very long time. I don't, however, hate Doggett and for those who will continue to watch, I sincerely hope that season 9 is all that they hope for it to be.

[cofax]:

> Quick recap - It is HER newsgroup. Without Laurie there would be NO newsgroup.

Actually, that is not correct. 2 Points:

1) Laurie is the moderator of a *mailing list* that was started by other people. Her position as list moderator gives her certain powers over the list and its content, regardless of listmembers' desires. Laurie has the *power* to do whatever she likes with XFC. I have no idea whether any of these changes have been discussed on XFC, but I expect they probably were. I hope that her listmembers agree with such fundamental changes in list policy, but functionally if she chooses to make this change nobody can do anything about it, except post Season 8-9 fic somewhere else.

2) The *newsgroup* does NOT belong to Laurie. The *newsgroup* is alt.tv.x-files.creative. Laurie didn't create it (though she may have been a member of the group that got it started way back when), and she cannot control anything about it, except in that her mailing list forwards to atxc. Anyone can post anydamnthing they like to the newsgroup independently of XFC, including Scully/Doggett or Mulder/Reyes romances, character death, bestiality, and M/K/L/B/D orgies. The fact that XFC forwards to atxc automatically means that lots of people who are NOT on XFC get to read XFC fic, but it doesn't give them a protectable interest in XFC internal policies.

As I said last time this subject came up: there's a ton of people who ONLY get fic through XFC, and those people will miss out on all the interesting stuff written about Season 8 and 9. But there's nothing that can really be done about it unless they subscribe to another list, of which there are several identified in Lysandra's thoughtful and well-reasoned post.

And that is all she wrote--

[Boodogler]: > Quick recap - It is HER newsgroup. Without Laurie there would be NO newsgroup.

alt.tv.x-files.creative is a newsgroup. Nobody owns it. Nobody moderates it. Anybody can post whatever they want, and nobody can change that. It is sometimes abbreviated as atxc. These messages in this thread are only being posted only to atxc the newsgroup with the exception of the first post by Laurie which was first posted to her mailing list (XFC) and then forwarded here automatically.

XFC also known as XFCreative (which also is abbreviated as its two lists XFC-ATXC and XFC-no_ATXC is a mailing list, not a newsgroup. The XFC-ATXC mailing list forwards all stories posted there to here - atxc - the newsgroup. Laurie is the current owner of XFC. She was not the person who created that list.

[Jeannine Ackerson (Trevizo)]:

To the newsgroup - The XFCreative mailing list was created by me July 4, 1997.

It was created because the list admin of the X-Files Fanfic mailing list, (the Chaos list) had made a dictatorial decision, which allowed him to ban any member from the list for posting anything he deemed was 'wrong'. There was no discussion, no warning, just - "Anyone who posts something I feel undermines my authority can get banned" and "Anyone who helps a banned person post on the list can get banned too".

So I posted a message to that list, said I was sorry that I couldn't exist under such rules, and got the he** out of Dodge.

A few months later, I created XFCreative as an OPEN alternative to the oppression I felt was happening on XFF. It had no boundaries, except that it was for fanfiction ONLY. That was it. Nothing else.

But, my life got too complicated, and I ended up offering the list up to anyone who would keep it running, and informed the list members that they would be able to make their own decision as if they wanted to move on to the new list admin's list.

However, when I gave Laurie the reigns of my baby, I never once imagined that what I had fought against, taken a stand against - the limiting and personal decision of a list admin to affect the structure of the list in such a harsh way would happen to XFC.

I'm saddened by the choices Laurie has made. It makes me wish that I had done things differently, or that we, as a group - here on the newsgroup or on her list, could change her mind. But, at least there are more choices now that there were 4 years ago. There are tons of mailing lists out there today. There are places for authors and readers to go.

So, I urge the XFC members to make their own decision. If they don't like the new direction of the list, they can 1. Mail Laurie and tell her so, and 2. Find another list to supplement XFC, or 3. Leave XFC and find a list they feel better suits their needs.

X-Files and X-Files fandom is changing, and if we want to continue with it, we can either tolerate and accept the future, or live in the past. For the unity of all the fans, I think we should embrace X-Files as a whole past and future - read what you like, write what you like, leaving that decision to the readers and authors, not the list admins.

But, the truth is that Laurie can do what likes with XFC. She can change it into a niche list, ignoring the history and purpose the list was created for.

And more the loss for everyone in the community.

Jeannine Ackerson (Trevizo) Creator and former List Administrator of XFCreative

"Writing is like prostitution; first you do it for the love of it, then you do it for a few friends, and finally you do it for the money." - French Playwright Moliere.

"Yes, but not necessarily in that order." - me

[OP: Shannara Sword aka Laurie Haynes]:

XFC-no_ATXC just didn't work out as designed. Only about half or less of the XFC-ATXC members are also members of XFC-no_ATXC, so the only way to reach all XFC-ATXC members is to post to that list. Keeping posts off Ephemeral is easy. You just put *NO ARCHIVE* at the top. That's what I did with my announcement and it didn't show up there. But there's unfortunately no command that will keep XFC posts from being forwarded to the newsgroup.

[...]

No one is being banned for writing and trying to post fic that doesn't meet the criteria for XFC. But those posts are simply not sent through. Absolutely, anyone who doesn't like the changes in XFC is free to unsubscribe and join a list that accepts non-XF classic fic. There are numerous mailing lists, including specialty lists. XFC is now a specialty list. But don't bother writing me and bitching about the changes because it won't do any good.

[ Kristel St. Johns ]: I'm not a Doggettfic writer, and I don't plan to ever be. The only fic I will ever write that includes more than a passing mention of Doggett will be the AS8 episodes. However, I have been a list administrator, and this whole thing this past weekend got me thinking about what it means to be a list administrator. Here are some thoughts I came up with on the IWTB list:

A list isn't--or shouldn't be treated as--a personal fiefdom. A list administrator is not a feudal lord handing down decrees from on high. "Entertain me, or else!" That's simply ridiculous. It's a group endeavor. I have always viewed (and approached my own list administratorship under this philosophy) an administrator as a SERVANT of the list, not a dictator. Once the list is established, the rules set, and people start subscribing, it becomes a public entity, not a private one. Yes, one person holds veto power, but the LIST is reliant upon its subscribers to actually BE a list. An administrator is there to keep the peace and see that the established rules and guidelines are met, not to magalomaniacally change the rules mid-game when she doesn't agree with them. If she doesn't agree with them any more, she should turn the list over to someone who goes. Except for the ability to kick off people who disturb the peace or refuse to follow the established guidelines, a list moderator's authority does not entitle anyone to anything more.

XFC has a HUGE membership and a lot of people rely on that list to get their fic out there. As a former list admin myself (I recently handed over the reins on XFR) I would NEVER NEVER NEVER allow my personal bigotry to dictate how people on my list could and couldn't interact. My personal view is that a list is a group-owned entity. Yes, one person or a small group of people administer it, and they can control its content to a certain extent. BUT ONLY according to the rules established at the outset of the list. Once the list and its guidelines are established, it's done. That's the rules the list must adhere to and they aren't subject to radical change.

Why? Because the people who will subscribe to the list after the rules are established will subscribe BECAUSE those rules suit what they are looking for in a list. To change the very nature of the list after they have subscribed is a form of...false advertising, I guess, or entrapment, maybe. It's like subscribing to "Entertainment Weekly" on a free offer and then having the publisher's clearning house turn around and send you "Playboy" instead.

If someone complains about the established parameters of the list--tough cookies. What Laurie is doing is complaining about the established parameters of XFC. So likewise, tough cookies. The difference is, she's not just complaining, she has the list management authority to make her prejudices policy. But just because she has the administrators authority to CHANGE those parameters--parameters which have been in place for a VERY long time and upon which subscribers have come to rely--doesn't mean she SHOULD. That's not fair to the subscribers. Changing the rules to DISALLOW fic that has previously been allowed, and changing the nature of a list with an established membership that joined under a certain set of rules and expectations is wrong. The right and responsible (and respectful to the 1300 list members) thing to do is to:

1) turn XFC over to someone who will administer under the already established guidelines 2) stop paying for XFC, since you're right--it is her money and she shouldn't have to use it for something she doesn't believe in or agree with. 3) form a new list with new guidelines which suit her views 4) put her money into THAT list instead 5) let the people who agree with her views and who want a list with those particular guidelines subscribe to that new list

Instead, she is FORCING her views upon 1300 people who don't necessarily share them. And that's simply wrong.

And before you tell me "it's her money, she pays for it, blah blah blah" note that I am not talking about Xemplary. Yes, Xemplary is 100% HERS and she pays for it, so she has the right to do with it as she wishes. But Yahoogroups is free, so the list issue isn't about money. Laurie can easily take the money she pays to remove advertisements from XFC messages and apply it to a NEW list designed under parameters she feels is acceptable and peopled by members who agree with and have sought out those parameters and guidelines, and hand over XFC to someone who is willing to administer XFC under it's original set of rules and restrictions. Let THAT person pay for removing the advertisements.

Obviously, that's not going to happen. It's tragic, but it won't. But for the record, I consider a list administrator letting personal prejudice dictate a change in the nature of a long-term, high-membership pre-established list to be highly wrong.

[OP: Laurie Haynes]: And one clarification. The fiction for XFC doesn't have to be limited to Seasons 1-7, just that it must be about CHARACTERS from those seasons or author-created characters.

Believe me, I would rather my list admin announcements not come to the newsgroup, but the autoforwarding service picks up EVERYTHING posted to XFC and sends it here. The autoforwarding is a convenience for list authors and non-list members alike. But there are occasional drawbacks.

I really don't understand all this hate and vitriol directed at real people who don't like Doggett -- a fictional character and a bad one at that. Some folks really should get out more often from in front of their computers. Last I heard, everyone didn't have to think the same.

[WesternRose]: Then perhaps you might explain the hate and vitriol directed at real people who do like Doggett and the authors (also real people) who have the temerity to write not-MSR?

Those who choose to write DSR, Sk/Sc, Original Characters, NoRoMo, or Kersh/Aunt Jane's Jell-O Mold ought to have the same freedom from intolerant flameage as you claim for your own niche.

I'm not dragging people by the hair to read Skinner fic. I'll be damned if I'll put up with a load of ignorant, intolerant crapola from anyone who is going to sit there and tell me that thus-and-so should be boycotted for NOT writing Skinner fic. The same for Doggett fic, MSR, or any other type of fanfic.

Don't ask for yourself what you are not willing to extend to others.

[Mat]: To the best of my knowledge (as a listmember of xfc who excused herself after Laurie's post, without fanfare until now) this was not a topic of discussion on the list prior to the announcement, and in fact the last time it *was* a topic of discussion was during the entire Xemplary debacle in which Xemplary turned rec archive in order not to archive Doggett and/or Reyes fic. Laurie listened to her listmembers then, but as far as the general membership of xfc is concerned this recent change was out of the blue.

[Jerry]:

Well, we simply can't let that go by without a filk:

**Hippity Fic-ery or "Suggested Scene for Season 9"**

(sung to the tune of "Here Comes Peter Cottontail")

Kersh and Aunt Jane's Jell-O Mold

What a sight 'twas to behold

When John Doggett came in unannounced

Alvin, pants down 'round his knees

and in mid-festivities

knew he'd soon be totally denounced

(part one is posted, author is roasted see the critics go it's recommended; some are offended newsgroup status quo)

Reyes said "I'm not surprised

"I'm not even scandalized

"I'm going back to sleep in Scully's bed"

Doggett had no time to grouse,

for he would soon be Skinner's spouse, and

He had to shop for a new bedspread.

(keywords are used; still most seem confused

a flamewar thread's a "go"

socks reappear, some seem cavalier

newsgroups status quo)

[Wllflwr95]: Just my thoughts, if anyone cares to read them. If Laurie and people like her choose to live in a world where S8 never happened, that means that the baby arc never occured. Therefore, when Scully said she was pregnant at the end of S7, she could have been pregnant with *anything*. A boy, a girl, an alien! Because remember, S8 never happened and we never found out that the thing Scully was pregnant was a human boy.

So you don't have to assume the baby is William when you write fic to be sent to Laurie's list. Unless, of course, you live in a world where all of S8 didn't happen except for those last 5 minutes. And isn't that a bit hypocritical, denying that a season took place while admitting it did so you can have Mulder and Scully together w/ their son?

Again, just my thoughts. Never said you had to agree with them, nor read them.

[Teddi Litman]: > Believe me, I would rather my list admin announcements not come to the newsgroup, but the autoforwarding service picks up EVERYTHING posted to XFC and sends it here. What happened to the XFC-no_ATXC option? When I was a member of XFC a little more than two years ago, it *was* possible to post to the mailing list without having the post be forwarded to ATXC. I thought it was established that only story posts should be forwarded to the ng from the list. I believe that's why Scott set up Ephemeral to automatically pick up posts with headers that start with "xfc." Indeed there has already been a complaint that someone heading their non-story post with xfc in the front caused their post to be put on Ephemeral. If it is not true that all posts with the "xfc" header are story posts, then perhaps Scott needs to change *his* autoforwarding of these "xfc" posts.

[Cigarette Smoking Alien]: I think that the reason why there is so much outrage over Laurie's decision to close XFC to S8 fic has nothing to do with whether she has a right to make such a decision. It's her list, she CAN manage it however she sees fit. The problem is that the spirit of XFC and the reason why it was created was to provide an open, democratic mailing list where the whims of the list administrator were irrelevant. Laurie has done many things in the community which demonstrate her inability to be impartial and fair, especially when it comes to dealing with someone with whom she disagrees. She's the queen of talking nice in public while flaming everyone privately. This decision, however, takes the cake. It fundamentally changes the justification of the XFC list. Laurie has a responsibility to maintain XFC in the tradition under which it was created and she has repeatedly trodden upon that tradition with despicable acts of self-importance. This is the proverbial last straw which marks XFC's descent from popularity to obscurity. Why did she have to destroy a good all-genre list? Why couldn't she just create a new list which is season 1-7 only?

It is because she wants to spread her belief that season 8 doesn't exist like a cancer across the community. She wants to maintain control of XFC without tolerating fanfic which she despises. She has shown herself to be untrustworthy as a list administrator and an archivist. This is the time for everyone who disagrees with her to abandon her ship and join another one.

Regards, CSA

[M. Edison]: Well, I've heard plenty about this being on mostly Doggett friendly lists and one question I have is...if she won't allow stories with Doggett...will she allow stories with baby William? I've heard some say it can be justified because William was concieved in Season 7 thus he's a season 7 character. But, by that logic, so's Doggett. By the time Scully made her little announcement in the hospital, the FBI was already starting to put together the task force and thus, Doggett was already at work which would make him a Season 7 character. No he wasn't named but neither was William.

*sighs*

I'm gonna post this but most likely I'll be flamed for it.

Another thing...as a list admin myself (not in XF but in West Wing and the Magnificent Seven fandoms) I've learned that it's not about your own personal preferences. Yes, when you create the list, you create what you want. but if major changes happen in the show which the list is created for then if you want to change your list, because you don't like what happened on the show or if you *do* like, then it's your responsibility to *ask* the list first. And those the list affects. After all, without your members, and members who will join, it's just an email address.

M. Edison

Yes, I am a Doggett fic writer and a DSR writer and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

[Mary]: Personally, I support her choice and enjoy the fact that I can have a "safe" list where I can read what I like to read. As has been said, this is her list to do with as she pleases - there are plenty out there for those who want to read about S8 and the characters involved therein. Heck, if an archivist chose to exclude all stories where Mulder wears white socks, it would still be within their rights. So why can't people accept that and stop bashing her for it? I wish I knew!

[ScullyDana]: Because Laurie keeps telling all of us about her changes. We don't need to hear about them on the newsgroup. If she truly didn't care what other people thought about her changes, then she wouldn't make such a fuss about making them known.

Mark my words, Laurie is rolling in glory over this because it's been all about her and nothing but her. As someone stated in an earlier post, Laurie delights in showing one side of herself publicly and privately bashing others. I am a result of her bashing. Long before Doggett, I spoke out about Laurie's editorial changes and I was "punished" for it.

So, we're not speaking out about her childish changes but her immature way in which she inists on spewing her hatred and denial of Season 8 characters throughout the community.

As I have said in my posts and privately to Laurie, just stop making these public posts, do whatever you want with your list, but if you can't play nice, go away.

[Toniann]: I see a lot of value on both sides of this argument. What I mean to say is, there are logical points to be made from either point of view, though I'm betting each "side" can't see that right now. Personally, the viewpoints aired over the past couple of days have left me on the fence on this XFC content issue-- but it's been informative. But I don't like the idea of *anyone* telling *anyone* else not to post to the newsgroup, or thinking that they have the right to do so. You don't. The definition of free speech is that you will defend the right of someone else to shout from the rooftops that which you would spend your last breath opposing. You violently disagree with Laurie's policies? You think she doesn't play nice? Make your case. Shout it out. Go for it. But accept that it's a two-way street. I don't care what Laurie's motives were in posting her changes to the newsgroup were, or what anyone says they were. It's her right to post, and it's even related to XF fanfiction, which is the topic of this ng anyhow. Without her doing so, this discussion wouldn't be taking place, and a lot of folks in the community wouldn't know what was going on. Think of this as an opportunity to make your case, which you wouldn't have had if she'd simply posted to her listserv.

[Dasha K]: Not to get all old-timey on everyone, but man, I miss the old days of XAPEN circa 1998-99 when shippers, slashers, noromos, etc. posted in harmony. Everyone seemed to read everyone despite the classifications because good fic was good fic. Feedback Friday was so much fun, getting feedback on an MSR from a slash writer like Te, and me, the impressionable newbie who barely knew what slash was, reading Viridian5's M/K yumminess and getting my brain expanded a little bit. Or am I just a misty old senior citizen of fic, sittin' on the porch with my Country Time Lemonade, nattering on about the Good Ol' Days?

[ScullyDana]: If you go back to my original response to Laurie's post, you will note that I pointed out that this has nothing to do with freedom of speech. As well, do not assume every one on this group is an American and abides by your constitution. Freedom of speech is not universal.

But back to my main point - this has nothing to do with freedom of speech. This is not a legal issue. This is not a religious issue. No one is being persecuted. No one is going to set a legal precedent.

This is first and foremost about the fact that Laurie has loudly and vehemently proclaimed her hatred of characters developed by the staff at 1013 Productions, who are the same people who developed the characters that Laurie has loudly and vehemently proclaimed to be the only characters on the show that people in this community can like and can write about. You may say she has only put that to her mailing list, but in fact she has endeavoured to influence the entire community by knowingly allowing her posts to go to Ephemeral and the newsgroups. She has done that by not keeping her posts to her mailing list and by her rude and insolent posts and emails regarding this.

If Laurie proclaims to revere Mulder and Scully so much, she should recognize who created them and realize that the same production company also created Doggett and Reyes. I have read it on this newsgroup, I have said it myself and I will continue to say it.

If you do not like the show the way it is, stop watching it or altneratively, keep your opinions to your groups. Stop making it miserable for the rest of us.

There has never been any need for Laurie to behave the way she has done in this community. Others have privately voiced their opinions about the characters or have indicated their dislike for the characters in the preface of their stories or in their stories. That is what you can refer to as free speech.

But to equate something as noble as the First Amendment to someone's right to be rude, petty and immature is doing the First Amendment a disservice.

I'll say it again, and I know many of you will disagree, but this is not an issue of "freedom of speech". This is an issue of just plain simple common manners.

Laurie has her mailing list. She is entitled to set the guidelines for it. The newsgroup is not owned by Laurie. Although she has the right to her opinions, I firmly believe that people do not have the right to be rude and disrespectful to others' feelings.

I respect Laurie's right to hate Dogget, et al. But I do not respect her right to shove her opinons down my throat. She has her web site and her mailing list. She can shove opinions down people's throats on that forum.

I am all for debate and conversation but I am tired of the smart mouth negativity coming from this woman.

And before you all say I have behaved this way, I have not. I have reached the end of my rope with this woman. She has blacklisted me, she has been rude to me, and she refuses to see that her posts have been detrimental to the community.

I do not agree it is her right to post here. She has an extensive mailing list and a large web site. Yes, she can feel free to voice her opinions here, but her policies should be kept to her mailing list and her web site. But in voicing her opinions, I would appreciate respect. Nobody just gets respect, they earn it. And in my opinion, Laurie has not earned any respect from me.

As to people needing to know what is going on, they should subscribe to her list. I said it in an earlier post, when I was a list owner, I kept my guidelines and policies to the list. I did not advertise it on the newsgroup Ephemeral.

Her policies have nothing to do with the spirit of fanfiction. They have to do with her policies and should only be posted to her list and her web site.

As for her opinions, she can go right ahead and voice them, but I would appreciate a little respect for my feelings. There is no need to be as rude as Laurie has been and several other people have been.

So, yes, I want Laurie to pick up her toys and go away as she clearly cannot play nicely. Simple as that. It's not complicated, it's not rocket science. And why should I have to stop reading posts at the newsgroup because someone else cannot be an adult, be polite and be respectful of others. That person should stop posting to the newsgroup.

[Toniann]: Whether you agree with it or not, though, she DOES have the right to post here, whatever she wants to, as do you and I, and the guy down the street, and Charles Manson and the Dalai Lama. And I'm not talking about freedom of speech; I'm talking about an unmoderated newsgroup, which is what this is. You can dislike someone's posts, you can call them rude, you can feel offended by them, you can feel they lack respect. But they still have the ability to post, no matter how much you don't like it. You want moderated, go over to atxfa. Or, use a killfile. Because in reality, that's your only option. You can't stop someone from posting to this newsgroup, you can only choose not to read it.

[Kim]:

And how have you reacted to people who hate Mulder? Hmmm? In fact, I remember you have a pretty stringent definition for HOW one should love Mulder.

If I recall, you've told people not to even MENTION Doggett or their love of Mulder is suspect.

Let's not pretend you've even tried to veil your contempt for people who like Skinner or Doggett. There's no point.

Your attitude has been pretty belligerant and anything but tolerant. If you're finding hate and vitriol, I'd suggest you remember who sowed it.

It's clear you have the *right* to do what you want to with *your* mailing list, but when you use a mailing list that was created FOR freedom of writing and narrow it to your own purposes and tastes, then you've ceased to serve the purpose or the population. It's become a list about What Laurie Wants and to hell with anyone else, right? Right.

So let's not hear about how you're Little Mary Fucking Sunshine, OK, Laurie?

> Some folks really should get out more often from in front of their computers.

Lead us by example, please.

> Last I heard, everyone didn't have to think the same.

They do on YOUR lists.

In fact, on your list, people have been subjected to pogroms and purges based upon speculation and allegations where you never met your burden of proof.

Laurie, you suck. Go away.

Kim, who has never been a member of XFC, never been to Xemplary and thinks that the reasons for both are clear in this post

[Deslea]: To a large extent, but not totally. One of my first memories of ATXC, back in '96, was a certain, then-prominent archivist flouncing off in a huff and ripping down her archives because one person had the temerity to ask to have her stories removed. There are a lot more hissy-fits now, but we had them then, too.

[Kipler]: Well, I've been around since '94, and I can tell you this place never was the nirvana people recollect. People have always been squabbling and fussing with each other. The topics just change. --Kipler, who suspects life wasn't as good "in the old days" as old people remember it being, either...

[Lauryn]: Well, I wasn't around the fandom then, either, at least not online. You're right, and I doubt that very many people who *were* around then are still around today.

[Brandon Ray]: > Well, I didn't quite mean it that way. Hell, yeah, I remember some humdinger flame wars. What I meant was there was more diversity in the story types back then. In the last couple of years, it seems like the vast majority of stories posted are MSRs. You rarely see a slash story posted here anymore. That may be in part because of the growth of the net, and the advancement of the technology. It's now childishly easy for anyone who wants to, to start their own mailing list. You don't need special software, and you don't need any disk space of your own -- Yahoo does it all for you, for free. And the growth in raw numbers of fans also means it's easier to find a group of like minded souls. The result of these two factors is that rather than posting a story that is from a genre that doesn't have a broad following to atxc, people have formed targeted mailing lists -- lists for Krycek, lists for Skinner -- hell, now there'll probably be lists for Kersh and his Jell-O mold collection. Thank you *so* much for that, Kipler. ;)

[Teddi Litman]: > That, and have I just... *gasp* written actor fic? So to speak? [in response to a fic posted to this discussion] Well, you have written real person fic ... or in this case Philefic. There has always been a bit of a mixed reaction to this. I recall one story where a bunch of philes get mixed up with Mulder and Scully and CC; I believe they were cool with this. I also recall one funny piece posted during one of our more active debates (I absolutely refuse to call these debates "flame wars.") which featured several characters with names very similar to philes who participate in this ng. There was one character with a name very similar to mine who was madly brandishing a dental drill. (sic ... it's called a handpiece!) I know I got a kick out of it. There was one fanfic piece where phile Autumn T was a character; and I distinctly recall she didn't find it cool at all though. Part of that may be due to the fact that Autumn is her real name. I guess it all depends on who the person is and we have yet to see Kipler weigh in on this one.

[Deslea]: The slash is still out there, but with all the lists around now, most of it gets posted to those and not here. I'm not a slash writer, but I'm working from discussions on this topic on fanfic lists, there is a perception that this is not a slash-friendly environment, and so the writers just don't post it here.