Talk:Stitch

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Archived Discussions:

• Archive
• Archive re the controversy section

Identity Protection

Please read before editing this page

Fanlore has engaged Fanlore:Identity Protection at the fan's request (see the Query section at the top of this page, and also this discussion on discord). If you encounter other a wallet name or other names that you think this fan uses, please do not link them to this page. -- Quaelegit (talk) 05:45, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm going to remove any existing references on the page that link to places where Stitch's wallet name is used. Fiercynn (talk) 20:22, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Is "do not link" about internal links within Fanlore? Or does it extend to not linking their own works published outside of Fanlore? One the one hand, yes, the links removed allow you to know a name of theirs that's not allowed here. On the other hand, the name is just mentioned offhandedly, and is not the point of the podcast. Not being able to link works of theirs with a theme I think the person is passionate about feels restrictive. We might not want a complete list of works including very old and obscure ones, but I believe these are prominent enough. If linking is not possible, is it acceptable to mention the episode numbers instead of links, like Fansplaining #x and #y? --Potpotkettle (talk) 06:20, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi Potpotkettle, if this fan appeared in a podcast under a different name, or created a work under a different name, then that cannot be mentioned here. Those names are essentially treated as separate identities on Fanlore, because the fan has requested that they not be linked. For the same reason, we cannot include episode numbers for podcasts as it would only require a quick google search to link the identities from that information. --Auntags (talk) 15:31, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

ETA correct link to the query section which is now on the Archived Talk page-- Auntags (talk)

References

There is still work to be done on the references section, but I have removed all quotations from the references section. Could editors please review Help:Formatting Citations and Footnotes, which contains several examples of how references should be formatted. We generally don't put quotations in references and we do include information about the source, date of posting and author.--Auntags (talk) 19:17, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

I believe the links in section four of this article may have some direct screenshots/links on harassment toward Stitch, might be useful— Schnikeys (talk) 22:27, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm reviewing each section of the Talk page to see what's resolved & how we can make this "front" Talk page more user-friendly (i.e. not so long, lolsob), and on reviewing that post "When Does Online Harassment From Fandom Stop" in section 4, Stitch has links to a bunch of *other* blog posts, including "What Fandom Racism Looks Like" which is currently in the citations, so I'm wondering if we should just link THIS one "When does Online Harassment..." etc and note that it contains a list of other blog posts to consult for "receipts"? Joanna R (talk) 19:31, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

If more documentation of the harassment and, specifically, the effort to get Stitch fired from Teen Vogue is needed, this tweet by Courtney Milan, this tweet by Stitch with screenshots may be helpful. — Elumination (talk) 22:43, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Also want to flag that, in the Controversy section, this is entirely unverified (i.e., there's no presented evidence that the relevant twitter account is bigoted):

Others have criticized them for siding with bigoted commentators when they happen to be mocking targets such as Reylos.

It seems like it should likely be removed unless it can be verified. --Elumination (talk) 23:30, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Note for my reference re which parts of the Talk page are resolved: This looks like it was removed and shouldn't be put back unless it can be verified. Joanna R (talk) 19:31, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Possible page structure?

So many good ideas here on this talk page!

My brainstorm, purely a very rough draft/proposal for the page structure based on comments here. Feel free to pick and choose! Feel free to disregard!

1. Intro paragraph, summary of fan activity, primary fandom interests

2. Interviews? (if yes, then a list and links to them, include the year it was conducted and very brief summary. Someone may want to make a separate Fanlore page for each interview in the future)

3. Activities as a journalist (history, summary, links)

4. Example fanworks

a. Fiction (sample list of linked fics, possibly with links to Fanlore pages for several to include fan comments, history, and context. These separate fiction pages may need to be created)

b. Non-fiction (sample list of meta, essays, posts -- some of these may simply be links, but if they generated a lot of discussion, then each one of these could include links to a short summary of the discussion on another section on Stitch's page titled Controversy. I propose making a separate page for individual essays/posts and after the summary on Stitch's page, link to these individual pages. This would make Stitch's page less focused in a lengthy way on each discussion, and the separate page will allow these discussions their own space.

5. Controversies (short summary of the controversies in general, each one would have its own section)

a. PickMe POC and POC TOO (brief summary and link to its own page to be created)

b. Weaponized White Womanhood (brief summary and link to its own page to be created)

c. Teen Vogue (brief summary and link to its own page to be created)

d. AO3 (brief summary and link to its own page to be created)

e. other?

6. Meta and Essays (no commentary, a list of links to notable essays and articles)

7. See also (links to other Fanlore pages, such as Race and Fandom...)

Other sections? MPH (talk) 14:25, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

That sounds good to me, MPH. Stitch looks like she has a very varied fan life so sections on things that expand on her journalism and interviews would be great! All of those might be a little much for me to tackle by myself as I'm mostly unfamiliar with her (digging into just those 2 controversies last night took me well over an hour), so I'd def need some help.. I'll see about adding in the sections and looking into some info on them, but if anyone gets around to any of them before me they can put what they think should be said in the article here. I want to try and get the controversy section sorted out first since that seemed like the main issue, so it can feel more balanced, and then filling in those further sections will certainly help in that too. Patchlamb (talk) 18:13, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

I added some sub-sections and included more info on her harassment regarding Teen Vogue. If you or other editors want to make them into their own pages like you suggested MPH feel free; the info I included can always be removed/revised as needed. I only got to her Teen Vogue writing under the journalism section, haven't got to her work with Polygon or any other sites she may frequent. Also, if anyone finds any more calls to have her fired def drop them here, I only found one that wanted her fired and one that questioned her employment/emailed Teen Vogue about Tweets she made. Patchlamb (talk) 21:29, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Re: AO3, I don't think we will need a new page for that - I think much of the content could be folded into our existing page OTW and AO3 Racism Discussion (2020), and if there is material that goes beyond the scope of that page, maybe the page's remit could be expanded? I would be wary of starting a specific page about one fan's interactions with or critiques of AO3, but there is a lot to document on the topic of the OTW/AO3 and racism.

We also have many of Stitch's meta essays already documented on Stitch's Media Mix, so we should keep an eye out for overlap there. --enchantedsleeper (talk) 21:33, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Agree. There is an article referenced on OTW and AO3 Racism Discussion (2020), Antiblackness in (Service of) the Archive: A Statement We could add that to the Notable Works section, and point out that its written in response(?) to the OTW and AO3 Racism Discussion. --Auntags (talk) 21:50, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

All good points. I agree. MPH (talk) 22:21, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

By way of an update, I created a dedicated page for the PickMe POC essay and response, and moved the content related to that to the meta essay page; we can do the same for Weaponized White Womanhood and Rey/Kylo Shippers (happy to be the one to do so tomorrow if no-one beats me to it; for now, I need to turn in). I also created a much needed section on racism on the AO3 page with a very brief overview of some of the main arguments, and relocated the relevant content on this page over there. (Really, it could be its own spin-off page with the number of discussions that have taken place over the years, but for now it's a section). When we're done I think the "Controversy" section (or perhaps "Criticism and Harassment") can give a more bird's-eye overview of the main points with references (and links out to relevant pages) but fewer quotes on-page. Not because quoting is bad, but because I don't think we necessarily need to replicate these conversations on Fanlore when we can summarise and cite. (I'm echoing the points made by Jesteresque further up, which I think are fair). --enchantedsleeper (talk) 00:08, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

The page is looking so much fancier, huge kudos to everyone! Side note, I saw there were a couple lines about criticism of Stitch in the “Activities as a Journalist” section. Should that be moved down to the “Controversy” section? — Schnikeys (talk) 02:58, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

The interviews I found from a brief look: Zendaya (JULY 19, 2021), Stephanie Williams (NOVEMBER 29, 2021), Kelly Marie Tran (MAY 27, 2021), and Lil Nas X (MAY 20, 2021). --Elumination (talk) 06:54, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm happy to help draft summaries of the interviews if that would be helpful - probably will take me a little bit but can provide a draft here. Fiercynn (talk) 23:07, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

I would be in favour of short interview summaries that link out to other pages relevant to the topics in the interview, similar to what's proposed for the controversies section. For example the interview with Kelly Marie Tran summary could be: "An interview with Kelly Marie Tran discussing her work as Rose Tico in Star Wars and Raya in Raya and the Last Dragon, and the different fannish reactions to those two roles." The Raya page is unfortunately a stub but there is a good deal of related information the SW pages, and I think it would be a good idea to highlight pages with relevant discussions. Also I want to clarify that the scope of the interview section can include interviews with Stitch, as well as interviews Stitch has conducted. So we could end up with two sections under that heading. --Auntags (talk) 22:01, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Suggested draft for the interviews section below. It's wordier than what Auntags proposed above so feel free to edit! Fiercynn (talk) 18:52, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Lil Nas X

Lil Nas X spoke with Stitch around the release of his song “Sun Goes Down” and in the wake of his widely-lauded – but also controversial – music video for “MONTERO (Call Me By Your Name)”. They discussed Lil Nas X’s social media presence, his fashion style and endorsements, and how he has showed vulnerability by sharing his queerness through his art and social media.

Lil Nas X Talks UGG Pride Campaign and New Song, "Sun Goes Down" by Stitch, Teen Vogue, May 20, 2021. Accessed February 12, 2022.

Kelly Marie Tran

Stitch interviewed actress Kelly Marie Tran about her voice acting role as Raya in Disney’s Raya and the Last Dragon, as well as her previous breakout role as Rose Tico in Star Wars: The Last Jedi the second movie of the Star Wars sequel trilogy. Kelly and Stitch talked about their dual experiences with harassment and racism from fans (particularly Star Wars fans), shipping Star Wars characters, becoming a Disney princess, and Kelly’s interest in musical theater.

Kelly Marie Tran on "Raya", Internet Harassment, and Fandom by Stitch, Teen Vogue, May 27, 2021. Accessed February 12, 2022.

Zendaya

Stitch’s interview with Zendaya included discussion both of her role as Lola Bunny in Space Jam: A New Legacy and as Rue in Euphoria. Zendaya talked about the challenges of filming during the COVID-19 pandemic, her interest in playing a villain, and what to expect from the second season of Euphoria.

Zendaya Talks Lola Bunny in “Space Jam” and "Euphoria" Season 2 by Stitch, Teen Vogue, July 19, 2021. Accessed February 15, 2022.

Stephanie Williams

Stephanie Williams, a writer for DC Comics’ Nubia & The Amazons, spoke to Stitch about the comic, which features the Themisyciran character Nubia, sister of Wonder Woman. They discussed Nubia’s history and the changes made recently, Williams’ artistic influences, and the fandom around the comic.

Nubia & The Amazons Writer Stephanie Williams on Wonder Woman, Fandom & Themyscira as Accessible Utopia by Stitch, Teen Vogue, November 29, 2021. Accessed February 15, 2022.

Kaci Walfall

Stitch spoke with Kaci Walfall, the 17-year-old actress playing the lead character in the CW show Naomi ahead of its premiere in early 2022. Kaci spoke about her experience playing a young Black superhero, her mentors and support systems, and her excitement for the show.

"Naomi" Star Kaci Walfall on Her Big Break & Black Girl Superheroes Who Mentored Her by Stitch, Teen Vogue, January 11, 2022. Accessed February 15, 2022.

hey folks, I drafted the above text for the "Interviews" section a while back but never heard if anyone had comments, and since the page is still locked for general editing, wanted to see what folks thought. thanks! Fiercynn (talk) 00:11, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

hi, the "Interviews" section for Stitch's page is still listed as needing expansion - wondering what is needed when I drafted this section back in February 2022 but never received any feedback on it. I'd be happy to update my draft with more recent interviews that Stitch has done, but would love to know this is being reviewed and seen before I put in that work. thanks! Fiercynn (talk) 02:12, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi Fiercynn,

Apologies for the delay in getting back to your suggestions, and thank you for your patience in waiting for a response. I think that in order to be more suitable for Fanlore, which focuses on fandom, we want this section to highlight the interviews that Stitch has carried out which have a fandom focus (for example, the Kelly Marie Tran interview where fandom interaction and harassment was a major theme) and mention those themes, but we don't need to set out to list every single interview. So perhaps mentioning that Stitch has conducted interviews with writers, actors and creators, such as [X, Y and Z] that frequently touch on issues around fandom and fannish engagement. And then a couple of paragraphs detailing key interviews of this type and the fandom themes they covered. We can also create dedicated Fanlore pages for these interviews if we want to explore them in more detail and include quotes, etc.

Does that make sense? Let me know if that helps clarify things, and I'm happy to help with workshopping more specific wording!

Thank you again for your continued interest and willingness to help with improvements to this page.

enchantedsleeper (talk) 18:10, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

yes that does make sense, thank you! i'll come back with a revised draft. one additional idea - would it be helpful to, instead of having an interviews section, have a summaries of all of Stitch's key pieces at Teen Vogue and other outlets that are not their own website, with the understanding that they will focus on the ones about fandom? Or should those go in another place? Fiercynn (talk) 18:54, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

So the "Journalism" section already has some descriptions of key pieces that are relevant to fandom like "The torpedo of stan Twitter hurts everyone", and we can add to those, if that's what you were thinking of? I also created the "Fandom Commentary" section with a view to focusing it on Stitch's work offering commentary on fandom and describing the key themes, mentioning notable pieces, etc. However, there's also the question of whether it's right to draw a line between what constitutes "Fandom Commentary" and what constitutes "Journalism", and it's possibly not a helpful binary, so I'd be open to suggestions for alternate section names. There's also the Stitch's Media Mix page which is more focused on what Stitch publishes to the Stitch's Media Mix site and has lists of the key pieces there. So we can provide an intro on their fan page with more detail on that page and individual essay pages.

Is that in line with what you were thinking? --enchantedsleeper (talk) 21:32, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

I've been thinking a little more about this and wonder what you think of renaming "Journalism" to "Journalism and Fandom Commentary" so that it's getting at both things? And then I creating some subheadings to get at Stitch's different types of work better:

Stitch's Media Mix (provide some short info on the blog but also link to its own article)

Teen Vogue work (could be interviews plus all their other articles)

Stitch Talks Ish podcast (there's currently no description at all of this)

Other articles (includes stuff they've published on any other site)

I think that would help organize things a little better. And then perhaps adding a new section for Stitch's appearances on other platforms - for example, the podcast Fansplaining, or other similar appearances. That could also appear as a sub-heading under "Journalism and Fandom Commentary" if that's appropriate.

Thoughts on this restructuring? Also I'm not sure how many of the folks who were working on this last year are going to be engaged again, but I know some other folks who would love to help with this, so they may be joining the discussion soon as well! 01:43, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

I think that's a good idea (we could actually call it "Fandom Journalism & Commentary"? Since the journalism is specifically fandom journalism...) and I like the subheading suggestions. And it's great that more people are interested in coming to help and edit! Thank you for reaching out to get more people involved ^^ --enchantedsleeper (talk) 23:03, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Great! I'd also like to add a section called "Accolades and Appearances" that includes things like Stitch's Ignyte Award win, their appearances on podcasts, and their appearances at conference and convention panels all in one place. Do you have any concerns with that or any feedback on the title? If not, I'll probably post that sooner because it's a little easier to pull together, and hopefully will be fairly straightforward to! (Although if you would like to see a draft of it first I'm happy to share that.) Fiercynn (talk) 18:35, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

I've been lurking here for a bit now and looking at what's been suggested, and compiled a doc with comments enabled here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1C-an2C8Z8KysryOUMP_BZwlvuioNDkw4uM_kqKph2wg/edit?usp=sharing Going off of Joanna R's suggestion in the conversation at the bottom of this page, I've left comments open and will not be resolving any for the sake of archiving discussion, but I was wondering if this works as a restructure for Stitch's page? Any and all feedback is more than welcome, especially since it's such a large rework. anthroApologizing (she/him) (talk) 19:07, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

controversy-related issues

I don't have the patience to look for sources or make writeups but some issues I came across while scrolling through Tumblr:

https://www.tumblr.com/olderthannetfic/712629264783147008/i-dont-know-what-discourse-is-going-around-these?source=share

https://www.tumblr.com/olderthannetfic/691154800565485568/thoughts-on-stitch-media-mix-she-is-obsessed-with?source=share

https://www.tumblr.com/olderthannetfic/683938751775490048/re-stitch-what-another-anon-said-about-diaspora?source=share

https://www.tumblr.com/olderthannetfic/683732432016523264/i-think-the-very-first-ask-about-stitch-that?source=share

https://www.tumblr.com/olderthannetfic/683485769269198848/honestly-the-whole-conversation-about-stitch-and?source=share

https://www.tumblr.com/olderthannetfic/680508146505187328/are-you-able-to-elaborate-at-all-on-why-stitch-is?source=share Sobqjmv sphinx (talk) 00:50, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

not sure who posted this, but a) these links are broken, and b) given that olderthannetfic is someone who has caused so much harm to fans of color that she has been banned from several fan events and fan conventions, i do not find her to be a trustworthy source of information on issues around racism or stitch. (i can provide more context on this if you like.) Fiercynn (talk) 18:36, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Seconding that I'm not entirely sure that these are trustworthy sources. Having read each of them, it's a collection of anons and olderthannetfic stating stuff with no sources backing up any of their claims. It's no better than hearsay, and I worry that it might contribute to the reason that this page was locked to begin with. Unless other sources can be found - as a random anon talking to someone who's already positioned against Stitch and has a history of perpetuating misinformation about fans of color - I don't feel like these should be seriously considered; especially the claim about Stitch being into incest. anthroApologizing (she/him) (talk) 20:46, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

the links work for me, but yeah, that would be appreciated. most of them are anonymous asks that i think could be potentially looked into further. Sobqjmv sphinx (talk) 18:56, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

by the way, there is no information on olderthannetfic's racism on her page that I can see, which could be important to add. Sobqjmv sphinx (talk) 18:59, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

you're correct about her fanlore page and that is something that should be remedied! there's extensive discussion though on the page of her 2016 meta Your Vagina is a Bigot, My Vagina is a Saint.

also sources on the bans: she has been banned from Festivids due to people saying they wouldn't participate because she has harmed fans of color. she has also been banned from Con.Txt for her racism. there's a lot more i could say but frankly don't have the energy right now! Fiercynn (talk) 20:22, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Reception, Criticism & Harassment section restructure

I'm working on a restructuring of the Reception, Criticism and Harassment section and wanted feedback on a few thoughts I've had about the page. I've collected them in a google doc and would like feedback - here or the doc - before diving into editing something this drastically. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1exk6KFnafqRujWp7JnS4mSKJEqpLPqKXZ7hAUlaTZyY/edit?usp=sharing Any and all help would be greatly appreciated! anthroApologizing (she/him) (talk) 22:02, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks anthroApologizing. Unfortunately Google docs is not a great place to archive discussions - documents can be moved/deleted and we can't archive this proposal using tools like the WaybackMachine. Could we move this proposal to a fanlore page instead, maybe a subpage like, Talk:Stitch/Proposed Restructure of Reception, Criticism & Harassment? That way we'd have a (pretty) permanent record of what is being proposed and agreed, and other editors will be able to review that in the future. --Auntags (talk) 22:30, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Auntags, sorry for the delay in response. I'm fine with moving this to a subpage, but I'm a bit confused. I spoke with enchantedsleeper beforehand and they were the one who told me to post the google doc link here. I understand the concerns completely about the fallibility of docs and agree with you on this, but I'm also wondering how the comments in the doc can translate to a subpage. anthroApologizing (she/him) (talk) 07:12, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Sorry. That's my bad then. I missed that conversation, if it occurred on Fanlore. You can ignore me! We don't have a lot of pages that require this kind of collaboration to revise, and I didn't realise Google Docs was an option. Thanks for letting me know! --Auntags (talk) 20:26, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

You're both right! :) AnthroApologizing reached out to enchantedsleeper directly (so you didn't miss anything Auntags!), and ES suggested a gdocs page. Auntags is right that usually we do discuss restructuring on a Fanlore page so we have a record of it, but also if I'm understanding correctly AnthroApologizing is hoping to get more of a discussion going that may take a long time on a Talk page.

My personal vote (not as Policy & Admin or trainee chair) would be for gdocs for now to keep an active discussion, but not to "mark as resolved" any comments so we have a history of the discussion, then we could do screenshots to upload to Fanlore? Joanna R (talk) 19:19, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

That's actually exactly what I was thinking, Joanna R. The archiving as screenshots is a good idea, because I was hoping to get feedback on what I've already worked on. ES and I did agree that it would be better to have this as an open discussion considering how big a structural rework is. So if anyone has any advice on this page (it's structured as a live preview, the required code will be added after) it'd be great to hear from people for if there are any concerns or things that need to be worked on. anthroApologizing (she/him) (talk) 18:44, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Oh great, I'm glad that makes sense! I know we want to preserve the discussion (not-resolving comments and screenshots), but for sure this needs a format more wide-ranging and easier to make comments at specific places, than a Talk page. Per some comments I made in an internal Fanlore working discussion that I'm summarizing here too: I'm going to move what's currently the "3 re: the controversy section" to its own Archived sub-page, because 1) it's long and 2) this section re Reception, Criticism & Harassment replicates some of the discussion but referencing more-current page structure. Then I will leave the "possible page structure" section because it has recent interactions and helpful thoughts overall. Joanna R (talk) 04:07, 15 August 2023 (UTC)