Porn or Fan Fiction? What is going on around here?
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| Title: | Porn or Fan Fiction? What is going on around here? |
| Creator: | Daveboy, and commenters |
| Date(s): | March 29, 1998 |
| Medium: | online |
| Fandom: | The X-Files |
| Topic: | explicit fanfiction |
| External Links: | Porn or Fan Fiction? What is going on around here?, Archived version |
| Click here for related articles on Fanlore. | |
Porn or Fan Fiction? What is going on around here? is a post at alt.tv.x-files.creative by Daveboy. In it, he bemoans the amount of explicit fanfiction being posted to the group.
Some Topics Discussed
- the use, or uselessness of explicit fanfiction
- censorship
- what constitutes canon
- who decides what is "good" fiction
- the power of the delete key
- wasting everyone's dial-up time
- the value of smut in a confined area
- a message's tone of delivery/word choice as opposed to its content
- erotica vs. porn
- money and/or feedback talks
- there are a lot of opinions on the internet
- theories on why many 1998 X-Files fans are so crabby
- and "is there any real need for wacky/deviant pure-sex stories involving our favorite FBI Agents?!"
The Original Post
[ Daveboy ]:
Greetings fellow X-Philes! I'm going to get right to the point. I have noticed a disturbing trend starting here in ATXC; namely, one of pornographic material starring Our Favorite Duo being posted under the guide of FanFic. I'm not talking about relationship stories ending in sex, or yet another totally gratuitous slash story marked clearly as such. I'm talking about people planning and writing stories that have nothing to do with XFiles in any way, shape or form. The stories are smut, pure and simple; about the only thing they have to do with the show is the names of the protagonists. Frankly, I am disheartened. I do not like most smut stories that involve the X Files and I never have, mostly because the vast majority of fan-written relationship stories are not true to the show. However I am willing to recognize that there is a (disturbingly) large contingent of X-Philes who REALLY REALLY REALLY enjoy sexually charged stories involving Mulder and Scully (or Mulder and Krycheck...ye gods) in perverse polymorphic lovemaking sessions. These stories usually outnumber the "purist" fan-written plot-driven stories, and that makes me sad. What really is bothering me, though, is the recent posts to this newsgroup along the lines of "I am going to write hard-core S&M stories" or "Searching for blowjob stories!" This, to me, crosses a line. It is one thing to write a relationshippy story with Mulder and Scully tearfully confessing their love to each other before falling into the sack; it is quite another to start penning fiction about Slurping!Scully or Mulder's love for leather. In a nutshell: is there any real need for wacky/deviant pure-sex stories involving our favorite FBI Agents? We, the fans, are blessed with an intelligently-written, well-acted, and often surprising show. Yet the best that we can do is to take the characters and put them into bad porno situations? How pitiful. I know I sound a bit preachy. This is not meant to be a scalding condemnation of any story involving sex - if that were the case I'd have to pan ELS, Cheapened Things, and many other well executed stories that just happen to have steamy UltraPorn in them. Rather, this is me, Dave, panning worthless crap that should be posted to alt.sex.stories rather than here on alt.tv.xfiles.CREATIVE. And I'll tell you what, it doesn't take a lot of creativity to fill paragraphs with lewd slapping sounds and breathy gasps.
Some Comment Excerpts
[ Sarah Stegall ]:
Boy, are you gonna get flamed! My condolences in advance. I should point out that NC-17 material has been appearing on this newsgroup since it was formed, and in fact appeared in a.t.x before a.t.x.c was born. It was a lovely NC-17 piece called "Gemma" by Kellie Matthews-Simmons that first hooked me on fanfic, led directly to my joining the internet, and started the ball rolling on my own writing. So I thank the Muse and Eros who work together to bring us some very fine stories. Having said that, I have to agree with what you say about the lack of *story* in many of these stories. What I think you're really ticked off about is the lack of good writing. And that's not going to go away either. Back when you had 100 stories a year posted to a.t.x, the 20 or so outstanding ones were ... outstanding. Now we get 100 a *day*, but we're still getting only 20 outstanding stories a year. Makes it pretty hard to find them. A well written sex scene as part of a story is a wonderful thing. A sex scene looking for a plot is pathetic. The ratio of the second to the first will always be very high. Good luck.
[ Khyber ]:
If you don't like it, don't read it. Remarkably simple concept at the heart of many debates. Some people *like* that kind of thing.
[ Kipler ]:
<< A well written sex scene as part of a story is a wonderful thing. A sex scene looking for a plot is pathetic.>> Yup. It's as true here as it is in "real" publishing or movies. I can think of countless novels I read in my curious teen years (back before the Internet, when kids had to learn about sex in the Jackie Collins aisle in the library). The plots were merely excuses for the characters to slip into bed with one another. Kind of like "Melrose Place." But I don't read Jackie Collins anymore, and I don't watch "Melrose Place." That's the beauty of free will. I vote with my purse. Still, I hear that both Jackie and Heather Locklear are doing quite well, financially. Encouraging good stories with feedback and detailed commentary is probably the most effective way of getting more good stories on the newsgroup. If someone writes a bad story and it's ignored, the message is pretty clear: that wasn't worth reading. Unfortunately, if someone writes a good story and it's ignored, the very same message is conveyed to the author.
[Grey853]:
I do believe the whole point of fan fiction, any fiction for that matter, is to meet the needs and tastes of a variety of readers. Yours apparently are more narrow than some. That's fine. That's the point. Your tastes are your own as is the next fan's. That's what labeling is all about. Those that offend you or don't meet your approval, scan on by, but don't start name-calling. That only leads to defensive postures and flaming. I respect your opinion, lord knows we've all heard it before, but I also respect and diligently support the right for authors to write whatever fan fiction they please whether it be slash, S&M, B&D, or that MSR insulin-needy romance that has as little to do with how X-Files plays out on TV as the romantic slash does. It's all AU in the long run. This is all about choices. You want to condemn someone for having different tastes in private, go for it. What I find annoying is you sending out this offensive rhetoric on the fiction newsgroup. Put the opinions over where they belong. To summarize, scan what you don't want to read but don't start a word war because you think what someone else likes is "smut" or "porn". Doesn't fly. Isn't nice. Go voice it somewhere else. If you've got a story to post, label it and post it. Then someone will decide to read it or not, which I believe is the whole point.
[DxScullyxx]:
Look, if you don't like something, don't read it. Just because you, and perhaps a number of other people, do not enjoy a particular genre of fanfic, it does not mean that others should not be allowed the opportunity to read or write it. I myself am not a particular fan of pure smut stories. In fact, I don't think much of them at all. I love a good NC17, providing there is good characterization and a plot. But I do, however recognize the right of others to create and enjoy what they choose. Why don't we all just do what this newsgroup was set up for -- read and post fanfic in styles that appeal to us and leave the others alone!!
[Mary]:
And about the only thing you can do about it is not read them. I've long since learned to consign 20K NC-17 MSR's that come across the mailing lists to my trash bin. With all the labelling we do here, I can treat the fan-fic like going to a bookstore. I'll by-pass the New Age section and head directly for History and Archaeology. My preferences, you see. After "Black Boxers and Strawberry Hair" so delightfully parodied the whole, ahem, genre, I had thought we, as a collective, were moving past them. But these seem to meet someone's (*many* someones') needs, so they keep on coming....You, at least, haven't been told in private E-mails that: (1) If you want to read (or write) X-Files, go watch the show; case file stories have no place in the fan-fiction. (2) A story isn't fan-fic unless it involves two characters from the show having sex with each other. Both of these comments boggle my mind. I sincerely hope they represent a vocal minority, rather than an unspoken consensus. If this is some type of consensus, I may just have to take the writers' advice and go elsewhere (back to the History and Archaeology sections, for instance).
[Sheryl Martin]:
well, the first time I read this I automatically went "TROLL!" and my finger headed for the delete button... then I reread it again... basically what you're putting forth here is the same argument that was up a few weeks ago about MulderTorture/Angst; with just the name changed to NC-17/Romance stories, if I'm not mistaken - you can reread your entire post with replacing the words and it's basically the same discussion that we had here... and I think we pretty well came to the same conclusions that are going to be presented here - mainly that a PLOT is integral to any story; be it a romance or an angsty story; and whether you have lots o' sex or lots of Mulder-beaten-to-a-pulp in your story isn't as important as actually having some sort of reasoning behind it - other than just the two of them climaxing (whichever two...) or how many different ways you can torture Mulder physically without him actually dying... the "problem" (for sake of a better word) is that people write fanfic for all reasons - I gleefully admit that I write mind candy and am darned proud of it - I don't seek to save the world through my fanfic or preach any philosophy or push any agendas or anything like that - I write 'cause it's fun.... and I think you'll find a lot of people here do... that they just do it, to steal a slogan... others write for other reasons - but that doesn't make their fanfic any less "valid" or "worthy" of your reading or consideration whether it's written by a 13 yr old on her lunch break or a 45 year old taking a few months to crank out a major epic - there's no barriers to posting anything here at all; either by content or length or by spelling errors - and while a few people find it annoying, it's just the way this Usenet group is - you write, you post and then you go back and do it again... so while I don't think that you fall into the Troll category, the problem here is that everything you pointed out has been discussed before under another name - and nothing was resolved then - nor will it be now; because the Romantics will now rush to the defense of their NC-17 stories; as the Angsters did a few weeks ago to their MulderTorture stories - unfortunately that's the way us writers are - kinda cranky when someone slaps a label on a genre, doncha know... unfortunately, by posting from this other addy that's obviously strange you do look much Troll-like - but hey, I'll just cut and paste your real addy in at the bottom... 'cause you put it there...
[Loligo Opalescens]:
Unquestionably, there is a lot of XF smut out there which is devoid of any redeeming literary value. (There is a lot of *any* fanfic genre which is devoid of any redeeming literary value -- let me save Lee Burwasser some time here ;-) and point out that a noted SF writer whose name escapes me at the moment (Theodore Sturgeon?) once observed, "98% of everything is crap". And that might be a generous estimate). But I can't let smut go completely undefended. A story centered entirely on sex can have considerable literary value -- let me recommend the stories in "Delta of Venus" by Anais Nin. Is there any reason why every nuance of M & S's personalities should go out the window in a sex scene? No! And if that does happen, it's due to bad writing, not to the genre itself. Sex is an immensely personal and complicated thing -- it's an area of life where people's desires and actions should be *deeply* reflective of who they are and what they believe, not the other way around. It is possible for a story to be deeply erotic, even downright kinky, and have no "plot" other than the characters having sex, and still: (a) be beautifully written; (b) have something insightful to say about love/desire/sex in general; and (c) tell us a lot about the characters and their relationship to each other.
[bliss]:
I remember writing the Moon series and getting private email that a) I should have killed Morgan Grayson. b) that Mulder and Scully were meant for each other and why didn't I get that through my head. c) that (most hilarious of all) the Moon series was obviously a Mary Sue(or whatever the hell they're called) and why didn't I get a life. d) a number of other petty remarks, too petty to mention. Besides which, as several other people have pointed out: The 'Net is free. Anarchistic. Anonymous. People have fantasies, whether it's Mulder and Scully, or Mulder and Skinner or Mulder and Krycek. It's the nature of the beastie. When they write out their fantasies, some of said writing is going to be integrated with a good plotline, strong (if AU) characterization, and good dialogue. Some of said writing is going to be crap. I think if you go into any bookstore, and add up ALL the percentages, not just the romance percentages, you will find that they are roughly the same. Now, as to the difference between porn and NC-17 material....a personal differentiation, I realize, but surely there are some who find there is a difference. Porn is generally the random fuck-me story, explicitly detailing nothing more than a carnal connection. The NC-17 material to which I refer generally attempts, PWP or not, to imply or indicate a deeper connection than the merely genital. It aspires to erotica. The good stories achieve. The others are merely failures, not porn. Of course, we could argue this all day and I prefer to leave that to the Supreme Court. As I've pointed out ad nauseam, I don't like formulaic and juvenile romance. I do like adult relationship stories. Guess what? I don't have to read the former, sometimes I can tell just from the title. Usually, if the word Heart, Angel, Unspoken, Communion, Storm, or Moon appear in the title, I hit the kill button. A lot of the time, I check out the first paragraph, but sometimes, I'm impatient. I don't care for werewolf stories. Again, I don't have to read them. If Wolf, Moon, or Loup Garou(x) appear in the title, I follow the process outlined above. So, your solution is easy. If the words NC-17 appear in the subject line, you can choose to check out the first paragraph and/or summary/category lines. If it says MSR, you can assume that Mulder and Scully are going to be doing the horizontal bop and spare your own sensibilities with the Delete key. If it says Slash, you can save yourself the horror of same sex copulation the same way.
[Loligo Opalescens]:
Deviant is in the eye of the beholder. There is no 'need' for smut stories, any more than there is a need for any fanfic at all. People like to write it and people like to read it. Therefore it gets written....Some stories are bad, in every kind of fanfic. Some stories are as intelligent and well-written as the show, and a few are better. Read the good ones, that are on a topic that you like. If you read a story which is clearly labeled as something you dislike, that's your fault. Don't try to make every piece of fanfic conform to YOUR preferences.
[Flukie]:
I´ve been following this conversation for awhile and I totally agree with D Moore. I have nothing against sex in fanfic, and I do read a lot of NC-17 but really, some of the writers should look down to theirselves and ask; "is this REALLY X-files stuff?". Everybody can be as pervert as they want to, but I think it´s not fair to use M&S on their smut. Look at the episodes. If you see smut, my name is Bill Clinton. It was so nice to see someone here who has good opinions and guts to speak them out aloud.
[Heidi]:
Then DON'T READ THEM. Nah, that's too simple. People fantasize. When you are emotionally invested in a series to the extent of most of the people who post here are, you are going to incorporate it into you sexual fantasies. What disturbs *me* is the presumption by you (and others) that sex is bad or wrong.....especially when we are talking *fantasy*. Yes, there are smut stories, they are often marked that way and it is very easy to skip them. You can put well know faces to some of your fantasies. That is why they call it *fan fiction*. There are a large number of stories out there that go way beyond the scope of the show but have nothing to do with sex. Are you bothered by those too? We are writing what we would like to see the characters explore and most likely never will see on television. I understand you are concerned with the lack of a plot or bad characterization as well, but please try not to tell people what and how to write.... Again, it disturbs me more that sex between two adults, be they male and female or male and male or female and female, is found to be disturbing. You and others say that it is not true to the XF, which is true. But is that really the problem? Our society has made sex into such a taboo (if that is the correct word I am searching for). We are so prim and proper and politically correct that it is totally ridiculous. We find nudity in a movie (male full frontal anyway) so shocking. The idea that the male bigwigs in Hollywood would be worried that an ACTRESS such as Anne Heche would be convincing as a heterosexual female is disturbing. The sad fact is that the american public *buys* into it, they will flock to a movie or boycott a movie or not show it (esp. here in TN) simply because of explicit sexual content. Why is sex and the human body such a big deal and not a part of normal healthy life?
[Daveboy, original poster]:
I really really REALLY take offense to [being called a troll]. I do not troll ever. I was trying to get a feel for why people enjoy this kind of thing and maybe get some intelligent discussion on the nature of fanfiction...oops, I guess I shouldn't have posted that to a public forum and all. I guess posting stuff that generates anything more than a a couple of responses is now considered "trolling". Greeeaaaaaaat.
[Ann]:
I think that a lot of what people object to when they say they don't like "porn" in their stories or they don't like "Muldertorture" is poor writing -- we have authors who haven't created a real story, or a theme, or recognizable characters, because they simply don't have the skill. The original poster mentioned that he did not object to such NC-17's as MD1016's "Cheapened Things," because of its sheer brilliance. The problem is, of course, that not everyone has the skill of an MD1016. Those NC-17 stories people object to are, I think, very often someone's very best shot at creating something like Cheapened Things. But that's the _point_ of fanfiction -- it's not published stuff, anyone can do it, and so everyone gets to play, whether or not they have the extraordinary talent of an MD1016. Should we now have a screening process by which only the skilled writers get through? Wouldn't that defeat the whole purpose of fanfiction, which was always intended to provide an _inclusive_ playground for fans to explore their favorite fictional characters? I say, look at "bad" fanfiction not as poor storytelling, but merely as the author's attempt to join in the game we all play by being here. And some players are better than others, but that doesn't mean we eliminate them from the game. Or better yet, don't read it at all.
[Daveboy, original poster]:
Okay, I've read all the responses to my post, let me just say a few things. 1) I never attacked smut; I simply questioned the need for it. Let me make one thing clear: I LOVE SMUT! Just not X Files smut. :) 2) Obviously people like this stuff or it wouldn't get written. 3) I am not a troll or some one-dimensional asshole looking for a fight...and neither are you. It's important to remember that when participating in newsgroup debates. There are people on the other end of these words. Anyway, I keep my email address in the message header fake so that the evil evil spambots can't get it and deluge me with junk email. I post me real address in my .sig 4) I did not slam ANY particular story or writer. 5) I made it perfectly clear that everything in the post was my opinion. 6) On the subject of "everyone has fantasies" - I'm sorry, but just because you have a fantasy that kinda involves the X Files doesn't mean you should immediately go out and write about it. I myself have a fantasy about giving Scully a back rub. Substitute Mulder for myself and - voila! - instant story! 7) On the subject of "go write something yourself you big ninny": I already have. It's still on the newsgroup...go and find it. :) 8) There is a difference between "honest effort" and "filler". A GREAT post earlier mentioned that most people's bad fic was an attempt at brilliance, but they just weren't talented enough. I don't believe that when I see posts like "Looking for Blowjob Stories" or "S&M: Will it Offend?" I can only believe that those same folks are writing stories too. I have seen "bad" writers turn out GREAT stuff when they put their hearts into it. However, I believe that at least 80 percent of the stories posted are throwaway; the author knows he/she didn't do their best and simply wants to toss out the latest MSR piece. I can only equate it with jumping on the bandwagon. Let me be brutally honest: I have a problem with perfectly good X Files stories being buried in a deluge of bad, bad, bad fiction; of well-written, plotted, and stories that generally deserve praise. I would really like to see this trend reverse itself. Sadly, after seeing the responses, I don't think that's going to happen. The attitude "If you don't like it, don't read it" means that we'll continue to see plenty of worthless content clogging the newsgroup and Gossamer. It means that sometime, somewhere, a good story will not get read because everyone got tired of slogging through the dozens of 44k "M/S NC-17" postings. And that, my fellow Philes, is sad. In closing: his thread has accomplished almost nothing, and I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time. It was my intention to make people question the how of things, but instead they questioned the how of ME. But I had to try, you see.
[bliss]:
It sounded to me more like you were making a condemnation of those folks who were writing it? Anybody else get that sense besides me? And it smacked of all those wonderful posts in recent days where others purport to know best how to write, produce and present fanfic. Not to mention the infamous tripe post. And you certainly got some intelligent responses, so I'm not sure why you're taking offense? Fanfic is, by definition, somebody's fantasy of what they'd like to see or imagine. If that includes carnal knowledge, well, what the hey. It ain't my particular thing, any more than werewolves are. The only time I've ever even gotten in a heated debate about, shall we say, MSR, was not over the prevalence of MSRs, but the very nature of "romance". Of the Harlequin-esque portrayal of a relationship between ANY two people. It would be as if I had posted a blanket condemnation of all MSRs. Sure, I'll be the first to admit, I follow Sturgeon's view on them. Just like I follow Sturgeon's view on the stories that are Angst, or Muldertorture, or X files, or....well, you get my drift. It would be as if, instead of commenting on an earlier thread, that I find some so-called Muldertorture stories disturbing, I came out in a blanket condemnation of all stories that take our hero through some pretty horrific action. Yes, as I've said before, some of it is perilously close to snuff literature. Some of it is simply egregious violence for the sake of the old hurt/nurture dynamic. Some of it makes me shudder, but I can usually tell within the first paragraph, and I don't go looking for stories classified specifically as Muldertorture. I use, ta da, the Delete key. I may find them disturbing, but let me tell you what time and experience have told me about writing. It does not necessarily indicate mental disturbance. It does allow the writer to work out various levels of discomfort/comfort/exploration of any and all themes. As someone below posted, I actually find the erotica a healthier theme than the violence. So maybe you could ascribe it to the writer not only enjoying a fantasy of what they'd like their favorite fictional characters to get up to, excuse the pun, but also a way of exploring their own erotic nature. In a country which professes to be sex-mad, but which is essentially anti-erotic, I find this quite reasonable. And healthy. It doesn't mean I want to read all their fantasies. Which takes us back to the Delete key. In any case, like all of us, you're perfectly welcome and free to post your opinion. And we're perfectly free to see it as trolling or intelligent discussion and to disagree politely or impolitely. I personally thought I was very polite.
[Nicole]:
I've read the posts, so now I feel I can say that smut is not only one very important aspect of the characterzation, but it's created it's own award in the Morley's, the Spooky's, etc. Some of the so-called "smut" is the best work out there. Does Karen's "Word's" series ring a bell? It's about sex, but it involves such a deep connection between the two characters that addictive. Those that write the smut and the sex involved stories are simply expanding the characters beyond what we are shown in the show. If you don't like it, don't read it....Actually, even though I don't write NC-17 stories, I felt kinda put back at the way you assume that Mulder and Scully's relationship would be all happy and "tearfully" admitting feelings before falling into bed. If anything, the authors that write the very well done smut are making their relationship extremely real by introducing sex. By having a dominant person in the sex, it becomes real. The authors write the smut for themselves because it's fun and because we can do something that lets others experience the same thoughts we ourselves have. Is that really wrong?
[ Red Valerian ]:
Being the Sisters-in-Smut webmistress, I've just got to get involved in this thread, don't I? OK. Here's my opinion. I'm going to make a semantic distinction and categorically state that there has *never* been anything which I'd define as pornography posted on this newsgroup in the year or so that I've been reading it. Erotica yes. Pornography no. Now I just finished part of a story on another site which *was* pornographic, in my opinion. In it Scully had been abducted by aliens and they subjected her to systematic sexual torture - enlarging all of her bodily orifices so that she could accomodate huge phalluses; mutilating her genitals; subjecting her to electric shock; filling her with animal semen etc. I scanned it for a bit and though - no way - I'm outta here. And I scurried back to atxc with a feeling of having come home to a safe and sane harbour. So as I say - there's no pornography here. What there is is a range of fiction for all tastes - including erotica galore for those who like it. And wonderful wonderful erotica it is too, for the most part. I for one am very glad of it. Hell - I've done what I can to contribute to it and to give it a permanent home on the Skinnerotica site. But pornography? Never seen it here and I doubt we ever will. (Oh - on another different but related subject. I'm whispering here - so lean closer. This very day I stumbled upon the mirror of Bobbi's auto-erotic asphyxiation site - still up and running! Now maybe everybody but me already knew about this - but if you too have been languishing for lack of Bobbi - email me and I'll tell you where it is.) And in the meantime: visit the Sisters-in-Smut archive and find out what pornography isn't.
[Daveboy, original poster]:
So I should just stick to meaningless pleasantries when I discuss the work of others? Sorry. I call it like I see it - no more, no less. Even you must admit that some of the stories posted to the group are without value in almost every way. However, I lose a lot of my impact when I say this in so many words, so I'm going to use the (slightly) inflammatory term "worthless crap". As far as I'm concerned, this thread is over. It's of no use to anyone anymore - it's rhetoric, which I hate. But thanks for responding and remaining (vaguely) civil - I appreciate that much. Read my closing remarks on "A Few More Thoughts from Daveboy :)" if you care anymore.
[CoolCat350]:
Just because someone wants to write a story about a S/M relationship does not mean they are not talented, they don't care about the story, or they are writing "filler." Quality has very little to do with subject matter.
[Daveboy, original poster]:
I can understand where you're coming from (no pun intended), but I do find it humerous that your "safe harbor" includes loads of grunty-sweaty gay man smut. Which is not a condemnation of slash fiction, BTW, OR ANY TYPE OF EROTIC FIC. What I was getting at was that the most frequent offender of good writing is your typical "sweet words then off to bed" M/S romance. No redeeming value, no insight into the characters, no plot, no nothing. Just wasted, empty words that have been said better somewhere else. >> What there is is a range of fiction for all tastes - including erotica galore for those who like it. And wonderful wonderful erotica it is too, for the most part. I for one am very glad of it. Hell - I've done what I can to contribute to it and to give it a permanent home on the Skinnerotica site.>> But pornography? Never seen it here and I doubt we ever will. I disagree. I believe this group is coming perilously close to just that, based on recent S&M and blowjob threads. These are people who are writing stories PURELY for the sex. I've said it once and I'll say it again: not with X Files. It DESERVES better. Whether or not you agree with me on my views about Xsmut, you must admit: X Files is a superior show that tries hard to deliver us viewers the best. I intend to return the favor. If you intend to write erotica, at least put some effort into it. >> (Oh - on another different but related subject. I'm whispering here - so lean closer. This very day I stumbled upon the mirror of Bobbi's auto-erotic asphyxiation site - still up and running! Now maybe everybody but me already knew about this - but if you too have been languishing for lack of Bobbi - email me and I'll tell you where it is.)<< Old news. :) Actually, AA is where I got my start in X Files Fan Fic. After reading the dozens of...steamy...stories, I went out looking for true-to-the-show fic. I'm still looking. >> And in the meantime: visit the Sisters-in-Smut archive and find out what pornography isn't.>> Which, BTW, I think is a great idea. Stick it all in once place and advertise the hell out of it. Those who want it can get it. Those who don't, won't. I think your site is great, but I'm concerned with the newsgroup, where a deluge of written sewage can easily drown perfectly good writing.
[Debra Fran Baker]:
It's the gratuitous slash remark that bothers me. I'm not altogether sure what you mean by it. Do you think we just think "Oh, it would be hot to get Mulder and Pendrell together, so I'll write something that will burn your screen off"? I won't deny that some of that goes on - usually producing quite intentionally funny stories. I can't speak for all slashers, of course, but those I know *work* for their pairings, even for the tiny stories. Yes, there are some bad slash stories, just as there are bad everything else stories. And there are some slash masterpieces, just as there are MSR masterpieces and Muldertorture masterpieces and adventure masterpieces. Took me a month to finally get "Lasting Consequences" out, and there was nothing gratuitous about it.
[bliss]:
I suggest that condemning one specific genre is probably going to earn you the same reputation as the charming fellow who informed us that most of what is posted here is tripe. You know what? I found myself in some harmony with his original thesis. But I deplored his presentation. If you want to say, these stories are worthless crap because, and then provide step by step examples, you're going to get a reputation for being snarky, but not for being a troll....a bit judgmental, aren't you? What is fiction but a form of fantasy anyway? Again, I'm playing devil's advocate, but what right do you or anyone else have to determine whether or not anyone has the pleasure of posting their stories here? The 'Net is free and anarchistic, part of the beauty of it. If you want only the finer literary ventures, try creating your own moderated newsgroup. That's the generally accepted rule for those offended by what goes on in unmoderated groups.... I have no patience with those who a) don't care what they're posting, so long as they share their hot fantasies or b) worse, those who think they're good and can't take critique or learn from their mistakes. Or even worse, c) those who gain a certain audience with certain types of, say, characterization--a la broken Mulder, or infantile Mulder or saint Scully or fragile Scully and keep intensifying these characterizations for the purpose of getting their feedback fix, instead of attempting to learn how to more subtly develop character. But I don't argue that they shouldn't be allowed to post. We've done this argument to death here on the group, but most of the folks here appear to post for fun. It's their hobby. They enjoy it. They don't want to be professional writers, they just want to tell their stories and share them. More power to them. They're in the majority here. People who, like me, are playing at mind candy in between demanding projects, are still working on their skills, honing and experimenting before they take the dive into professional writing. And there are those somewhere in between the two extremes. I suspect the fiction you approve of comes from somewhere in these latter two groups. Shall we then pillory those who aren't striving for professional standards? Even at my grouchiest, I say no, we don't. You don't like it? You don't read it. You want to snark at it, by all means, go for it. But don't grinch because you get snarked at it return.... Welcome to democracy. Democracy means that worthless opinions clog the airwaves, the Internet, posts like, See Gillian Anderson Nude, or such. And then we have thoughtful discussions of whatever the newsgroup focus is, intelligent postings. I'm not arguing that you're wrong, I'm arguing that you are, like those mentioned in my post about rules and regulations about fanfic, are attempting to govern and judge that which you have no right judge *publicly*. I'd be rightly burned in effigy if I posted my honest opinion of a lot of what gets posted. Not because I could be wrong, although I certainly could be. But because I was deliberately and consciously taking aim at someone who may have been excited as all get out at their first or second or even third effort and would thereby have crushed their enthusiasm....The how of things is that this is an unmoderated newsgroup. If you can't slog through the crap, you may as well retire to a monastery, because life is full of it.
[Jenny]:
On this whole issue, I see your opinion, Dave. I also respect your opinion. I hope you'll respect mine. here we go: all this "smut" and "porn" is not in every story. I have read maybe 2 or 3 stories that were just PURE sex and smut. Many of the stories I read deal with all sorts of different things, whether it be cancer, angst, extraterrestrials, etc. What I'm attempting to say is that fanfic is exactly what it says. It's FICTION from X-Files FANS. I love it because everyone has a different view of the show and they use their views to write FICTION on what they want to happen. They may want Mulder and Scully to have hot sex for 24 hours straight, or they may put Scully with another guy and show Mulder's jealousy. Either way, it's ideas in their heads coming out in pixels. If you'd rather not read MSRs or Slashes or any romance fanfic, there are some terrific stories that deal specifically with X-Files and they have original plots that stay quite true to the show. The titles have slipped from my mind, but I've read a few and I must say that they are quite good.
[Kipler]:
<< So I should just stick to meaningless pleasantries when I discuss the work of others?>> As opposed to meaningless unpleasantries, like "worthless crap?" What is that, exactly? On the Internet, more than in real life, people respond to the words you use. If you really intend to spark intelligent debate here, it is obligatory that you choose your words carefully. But since you've declared the conversation "rhetoric" now that people have intelligently disagreed with you, I guess it's a moot point. And please, by all means, post something of your own, so that the rest of us can read it and perhaps (if we don't like it) post a blanket condemnation of all stories of the sort.
[Kazz]:
I don't see how you can possibly conclude from a thread *asking* whether people will be offended by a story that includes S&M, that the author(s) of works involving S&M are writing "PURELY for the sex." Some very thoughtful stories ("White Roses" leaps immediately to mind, but there have been others) that are simply *rampant* with character development include S&M (or, in that case, more B&D) elements. Sexuality is a hugely important part of human character (even though most people in this country prefer to believe otherwise), and since CC *refuses* to explore this aspect of his characters (except, of course, for his own hints that Mulder and Scully both have S&M/B&D leanings), fanfic is probably the *only* way we're ever going to be able to explore that part of their psyches. And I also have to agree with Red Valerian -- I have seen very few posts on this NG or on Gossamer that are what I consider "pornography." (Of course, if you're defining anything with S&M content to it as "pornography" -- which you seem to be doing -- then we obviously disagree on our definitions. But if even the staid U.S. Supreme Court will neither define nor ban "pornography," I don't think I'm going to try either.) I could probably count the truly pornographic stories on one hand. Is there bad writing? Sure, there's badly written NC-17 stuff -- but that's true of every genre -- in fact, I'm sure that there's a lot more badly written stuff that *isn't* NC-17. If only it were as easy to put a label on badly written work as it is on NC-17 work -- *you* can just eliminate all NC-17 stories if you want, but *I* have to wade through at least several paragraphs of all the other stories before I can decide whether they're too awful to go on. Face it, Daveboy. You *can't* stop bad writing from being posted -- and you shouldn't even *try* to stop the posting of stories simply because they are part of a genre that you personally aren't happy with.
[Sarah Stegall]:
I think he was really disturbed by a trend he doesn't like, and spoke his mind. I have no problem with it. And I'm certainly not going to attack him for it, even though I think he's mistaking lack of skill for lack of taste.
[Heidi]:
I doubt very much that any of the focused people here will stop looking for the good story just because some writers don't meet *your* expectations. AGAIN, who are you to say what is worthless. Your opinion...great. But this is kinda like the Catholic Church saying you are going to hell if you aren't catholic (I don't know that they say that...it is an analogy).
[Daveboy, original poster]:
I did not slam a particular genre. What I said (or MEANT to say) was that "a good deal of the stories posted here are worthless. Most of the smut stories lack characterization. Please try harder, everyone, and let's put the 'fic' back in 'Fan Fic'." I deliberately included a story, "Cheapened Things", to demonstrate that you can write great erotica with a great deal of respect toward the show and the characters.... I approve all fiction, with the exception of that that falsely portrays people or things and then tried to pawn it off as accurate. I HATE slash, but I would never suggest getting rid of the stuff, or even moderating it in any way. Know why? Because slash fiction has been given a niche. It's not like you "stumble" onto slash; it's easy to ignore, all of the authors have the courtesy to put "slash" in the title, and since it is such a love/hate thing, it tends to get it's own section at the archives so you don't have to slog through it to find "the good stuff" (PURELY OPINION ALERT for the Hate Patrol). What I do NOT approve of is the nasty trend where BADFIC masquerades as good fiction, right down to an interesting title. You "turn to the first page" and realize, oops, it's just another bad MSR boinkfest. Good thing it's free, huh?... The problem is, there's a weird positive vibe around this place. Post something good, you get happy feedback. LOTS of happy feedback. Post something bad, you get ignored, not helped. The community around here is great about giving authors positive feedback on stories they like. Now let's see some constructive feedback on bad stories. If I have to start a trend, so be it.
[Selena]:
You sure are talking a lot for someone who keeps promising to shut up, [Daveboy]. I don't give a sh*t what you think and will continue to post whatever I'm moved to post. I don't in any way believe that atxc is in danger of becoming merely a "porn" site. If you don't like NC-17 stories, skip 'em. Obviously, you read plenty of them. If you're not smart enough to read a summary, intro, or first couple of paragraphs of a story and know whether or not the story is for you, then that's your problem. And you can keep your personal problems out of the ng.
[Daveboy, original poster]:
I have no expectations. I simply want to see an ebb in the foul tide of poor literature that threatens to wash the good stuff away. So what's your point with the above responses? That we should all just sit around, staring at each other because no one's opinion really matters? If my opinion is worthless, and your opinion is worthless, then why even bother to respond to me? To point out the obvious? My, aren't we going out on a limb here. I'm sorry that this is a little mean, but your logic infuriates me. You don't support what I'm saying, so it's "just my opinion, and therefore worthless" but yet you're able to pass judgement on me? Nice. Think about what you're saying, and let's take this nastiness to email rather than fight publicly here on the server. I WILL NOT RESPOND ANYMORE, THIS IS OUT OF HAND. I APOLOGIZE FOR THE MESS.
[Kirby]:
>>In a nutshell: is there any real need for wacky/deviant pure-sex stories involving our favorite FBI Agents?>> YES!! YES YES YES OH MY GAWD YES!!!!
[Heidi]:
Whether *I* find [a story] offensive or not is not the point. The point is this: I don't have the right to tell someone what to write or post. If I want to email them and give them my opinion, fine. But to try to control the content of this group is ridiculous. BTW, going from slash fic and MSR to mulder with prepubescent girls is very extreme and is twisting of an argument to suit YOUR objective.....and I think you know that. I still say if you want to privately email someone with thoughtful criticizim and *suggestions* on what you would do.....fine. But don't expect people to conform to *your* set of standards. And don't expect people to say "Oh yes, you are so right" because not everyone agrees with you. I am not objecting to your dislike of subjects per se, I am objecting to you trying to force your morality and opinions on others.
[bliss]:
First of all, I was never suggesting that Dave not post his opinion. I did, however, suggest that his methods were less than conducive to the type of discussion he wanted to set up. As Debra pointed out somewhere, it's counterproductive to start a discussion with either a blanket condemnation or an assertion that the stories he objects to are worthless crap. That's another story. I've communicated with him in private email and I'm pretty certain Dave understands what I said and why I said it. What I'd like to do is point out is that this entire discussion smacks strongly of a discussion that took place on fictalk back when I was still a member, when Gil was still was the moderator. Someone who shall remain nameless made the statement that Amperage's Mistress belonged on alt.sex.bondage instead of atxfc. This statement was made during the course of a discussion on use of profanity by our heroes, and whether or not it was true to character. I took exception to the statement about Mistress. What's ironic is that while I think it's a fine piece of writing about some very controversial subject matter, my perception of the characters is vastly different than the authors. The entire matter turned into a flame-o-rama, and the parties on the other side of the debate ended up accusing me of accusing them of being Nazis. Not my intent, I assure you. I absolutely support Dave's right to voice his opinion. I absolutely support Dave's view that it would be nice if we didn't periodically have to slog through vast numbers of derivative stories that are, as Dave put it, little more than boink-fests. I absolutely support Dave's view that it would be great if every story posted here was of the highest quality..... But who decides? There are stories that have won Spookies for reasons I still can't understand, while other stories that I felt were far stronger, better written and truer in characterization were overlooked. (And I'm not talking about mine, before anyone throws that at me.) Do I think I ought to be the final arbiter of taste? Hell, no. I don't think anyone can be, not in this type of environment. There are certainly hard and fast rules to what constitutes "good" writing. But past those rules, we're judging on taste, which is based on our own perceptions. Chacun a son gout. So, the points I was attempting to bring across are: 1. Use your Delete key, this is democracy 2. Starting a discussion by referring to issues as worthless crap is counterproductive. (Sorry, Debra, but I loved that line.) 3. Passion is good, but realism keeps your blood pressure lower. 4. Erotica is not pornography, as Red pointed out. Now, we could go on for days about the eye of the beholder on THAT one. 5. Whether or not we judge things to be quality, this newsgroup allows everyone to post their stories.
[Lee Burwasser]:
I have said before, but might as well repeat: What hardcopy fanzines have that online fanfic lacks is editors who put their name on the 'zine and their reputations on the line with each issue. Back when I wrote fanfic, my stories were associated almost as much with the editors' names as with mine. Newsgroups have no editors to go through the slush pile, so the readers have to.
[Livengoo]:
Good and bad writing. Hmm. There have been times when I've wished we had "TSS - This Story Sucks" warnings. Hell, there are times the XF itself deserves 'em and we've all rehashed that over and over. Dave has a right to his opinion and a right to post it but it is a little funny that a narrow, self-righteous seeming opinion like "I don't like XF slash therefore it's bad" should "merit" such a lot of comment (Sorry Dave - might not have been your intent but that's how the text looked. The people who note that text has no emotional buffers are right). The commentary looks a lot more intelligent and has a lot more reflection on the whole than the instigating comment as near as I can tell. What's good fiction? To me it's fiction that lets the writer and reader explore the underlying dynamics of the character. How the character is put together and what drives him or her. Need it be absolutely in character? Well, first, the XF program hasn't been in-character for more than two years as far as I'm concerned. Inherently that makes the in-character question difficult to determine. But even skating past that one, the in-character question is a hard one. For example, I think Lyrica's Routine Interrogations is more in-character than almost any MSR I've ever read. I find MSR inherently out of character, whether or not there's sex. OTOH, Routine Interrogations set up a situation that seemed quite believable given these characters. There was a similar Scully/Skinner dom story that seemed very in-character to me but that I simply didn't enjoy as much because I find that Scully's issues aren't accessible through sex. She's not a character whose need to keep people at a distance is explored in sex - very few Scully stories work for me at all, and those are generally by people with psych or tech backgrounds who can accurately discuss the attitudes of a professional woman. Mulder's issues do have to deal with emotional contact and trust and slash is a very good way to explore those issues for me as long as (and this is critical) the writing is good, internally supported and logical. Daveboy seems to have an inherent problem with slash so it's only fair that I mention that straight sex can also do this, but for me it doesn't work with Scully (which seems to be one of Dave's prerequisites for even marginal acceptability) since Mulder and Scully never communicate effectively. This is me, and I'd discuss it as a personal issue if anyone feels like taking it up, but the only, single, sole MSR I ever found in character or liked was Yvonne Harrison's Oops where they do sleep together and it's lousy! They wake up mortified and finally decide that they're not built to be lovers. That works. That explores character. For me, that was good writing. It explored the relationship in a readable, well-told story that was internally supported and logical. Bad writing is writing that isn't supported by the internal structure, or that doesn't have any relationship to real psychological issues. I liked the XF because it used a fairy-tale structure to explore the zeitgeist. Kewl! That can and is done in fanfic in adventure, drama, case stories, and, yes, slash and even some straight sex stories. If it's well told it's good writing. If it's illogical, superficial, or gratuitous then I personally consider it bad writing. If the violence/sex/action is integrated and relates to actually exploring character than it's at least a shot at good writing. If it's done well then it IS good writing.
[Houng Te]:
I just want to make a little rant rave for trite stories here, because I'm sure Daveboy (who I'm sure is enjoying being flamed) thinks that 80 percent of the stories are trite. Personally, I do get a little tired of well written stories with their high scientific knowledge and their complicated conspiracies and epiphanies and long run sentence that suddenly gives way to the meaning of life. I'm not saying that I don't like them - I love them, really - but sometimes, it's refreshing to read something straightforward and soap opera like. I actually enjoy stories about Mulder and Scully getting married and living a fairy tale life with twin kids and fighting over who's doing the dishes tonight. Or a high strung melodrama about a first date starting off wrong and then ending up right. And when I really need it, I go for a good, heated NC-17 plain old smut. Frankly, I'm getting sick of the idea that if a story isn't some enigmatic conspiracy filled novel with every sentence being some literary achievement, it's a throwaway. God, I'm a simple human being; I don't need a classic in order to be entertain. So let the trite stories live on! Because, heaven knows, I can't write them....Sorry. I just read this again and it makes it sound like I can't write bad stories! I can, trust me. What I'm trying to say is that I can't fairy tale MSR that's straightforward and simple and easy to read. Who thought it could be so hard to write about Mulder and Scully arguing who's going to take out the laundry?
[Amy]:
While I personally didn't think a whole lot of the post in question, I have noticed a trend on the boards recently to flame the hell out of anyone who says ANYTHING negative. I do think that greater leeway should be given to people who do want to post criticism, and that nobody should be assumed hostile/small-minded/etc. until conclusively proven otherwise. Now, that may well be the case here. But still -- isn't courtesy and eloquence the best response to rudeness? Wouldn't this person be more convincingly rebutted if we answered him simply, instead of doing a point-by-point dissection of his post, peppered with personal insults? I'm scarcely one to talk -- I've been involved in flame wars before -- but I just think that if we really want to have open discussion on this board, including critical comment about fanfic, both in specific stories and in trends of stories, we have to be more tolerant of negative opinion -- even when it's expressed poorly or written in a hostile voice. I, too, have the urge to fire back with all the venom a mean-spirited, unconstructive post inspires. But I do know that if we stoop to the level of emotional venting, it lowers the tone of the newsgroup at a whole. And we don't have to let rude or crass people drag us down with them.
[Mary Ruth Keller]:
It seems the fan-fic community has these periodic bouts of excessive grumpiness. For some of us, there are individual factors (I'm looking for a job, so my patience is more frayed than it normally is), but I think I'm beginning to see some trends: (1) We're in a lag time with the series. This isn't a sweeps month, so we're seeing more repeats than new episodes. Many of our collective bouts of frustration in the past have come when there's nothing really interesting happening on the show. No matter what we all thought of "Gethsemane", at least many of us were off writing resolutions to the cliff-hanger, then posting and discussing them. (2) We're waiting (most of us) for the movie. We look for clues, hints, trailers, but there's no getting around it: the X-Files Expo simply isn't going to keep us all occupied until June 19th. So, sadly, we argue. I suspect after the movie we'll see a spate of stories cross ATXC for us all to read and comment on.(3) Everyone posts here: whether you're ten or fifty, whether you've seen every episode in first run since "The Pilot" or just started watching with "Travellers", whether you live in the US or in the mountains of Borneo, if you have a computer, you can find alt.tv.x-files.creative. We have everyone from full-time lurkers to posters of multi-year epics sounding off on occasion. So, with this wide range of people involved, there are bound to be disagreements. We all need to take a deep breath, step back, and recognize that: (1) this is a hobby, not a UN conference on world hunger, (2) most of the folks posting here are decent, honest people, (3) we don't all happen to see this TV show and the creative process the same way (which is a good thing, or we'd all bore each other silly) and (4) we all (or I hope we all) like the X-Files, or we wouldn't be here. If we can maintain a sense of perspective about some of the arguments we've had over the past few weeks, maybe we can, as a collective, decide on some mutually agreeable methods for co-existence. Speaking for myself, while I may never write fiction professionally, I've learned so much just posting and interacting here over the past two years that I hate for others not to be able to benefit as I have. My vocabulary has definitely improved, as has my ability to express thoughts and ideas in writing. *That* skill is always useful, no matter what one does in RL.
[Bobbi]:
I run a website with erotica. X-Files fanfic, but erotic at that. Not all have sex in them, in fact, some of the most erotic never even come close to actual sex. It's the feelings involved in the characters, and hopefully in the readers, that creates the erotic mood. If someone doesn't like it, don't read it. But don't try to keep all of the people out there who DO like it away from it. To put it bluntly? I've been around here a pretty damn long time at this point, and just went through a mess to get my site back up. I've heard all the rants about erotica vs. porn and made up my mind on the subject years ago. So for me, and for everyone else out there who LIKES this stuff, back off.
[BethLynn]:
I choose what to read, what to write, who to be, and I am _so_ thankful for every single author that is out there fleshing out the X-philes X-file universe.
[Lynda]: