Talk:Race and Fandom
I'm confused about the the term "Australian" in the introduction. Should this be Aboriginal Australians -- I mean, we're not talking about Aussie citizens as a whole here, right? Because that would include a very mixed population that's also heavy on the white folk.
Also, would it be worth including Laura Shapiro's list of vids with characters of color here, or is that not considered something for the general discussion page?--gwyn 22:58, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- Latin America and Africa have plenty of white people in them, too. I'm not sure that the term Australian by itself is a problem.
- I think it might be useful to have a subpage about fanactivity to promote Characters of color, and make Laura's page part of that. --zvi 23:32, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- I see what you're saying, but what we think of when we read Latin America and Africa tends to be more along the lines of Latinos and (black) Africans. Here it's equating nationality with race (which is a sociological rather than a biological construct, anyhoo), and Australian doesn't necessarily equal aboriginal. But at least this got me looking at it a little closer, and I think it's easily recast (the sentence in question) to be honest -- making it more largely inclusive as opposed to mentioning specific nationalities or cultures. And with Betty's changes to the page, I think that work better, as well. --gwyn 23:58, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- I've edited this to read `Indigenous Australians', if that's OK? --awils1 13:23, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Is there a reason not to assimilate the example stuff at the top into the mediafandom section of the page? --zvi 23:32, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think so, so I've done that, splitting the material between media fandom and SF fandom as seemed appropriate. --Betty 23:46, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
tone equals skintone?
"Tone," of course, also references "skintone," making "I don't like your tone," an even more problematic statement.
Is this a generally accepted view? It seems really strange to me -- I've never heard anyone use the word "tone" to refer to someone's skin color. In terms of using it to describe someone, I've only ever heard it as referring to someone's tone of voice, whether oral or written. (Maybe it's a regionalism?) --Arduinna 19:10, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Hathor mention
FYI, Hathor Legacy mentioned this article on their post about the 12th POC Carnival back in March.--æthel 18:48, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Rename
The capital "A" is annoying me; shouldn't the article be named Race and Fandom?--æthel 05:08, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
- I'm for it - capitalization hasn't been terribly consistent, but I have to admit, I can't stand the all-initial-caps for every word, including conjunctions and prepositions. I think a lowercase "and" is more in line with general capitalization trends. I'll move it; it can always be moved back later if there are objections. --Arduinna 05:12, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Harry Potter?
Does anyone have a source for "Harry Potter seems to be a homily against racism, but it also seems to advocate racial segregation"? I think I remember reading an argument to this effect but I don't remember the specifics, and it would be good to be able to cite this. Thanks, --sparc 21:22, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
- I found something that is not exactly a cite, but argues that JKR positioned herself as against extreme racism, while leaving the more subtle, and insidious forms inherent in the text. --Awils1 08:25, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
historical whiteness of sf fandom
I happened across a source for early sf fandom being white, so I added it. The text of the quote actually claimed that the first national con in New York was in 1938, but Worldcon was in 1939, so I'm assuming that was a typo?? Meanwhile, the book apparently got this man's name wrong, so now I'm questioning how accurate a source it was.[1]--aethel (talk) 02:51, 25 July 2017 (UTC) P.S. for what it's worth, it looks like carrington was relying on Moskowitz, who is unreliable according to these dudes on LJ in 2009. LJ dudes also note that he was listed as white in the US census.--aethel (talk) 03:02, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
an example of not white-washing in the white-washing section
I am not sure this example is relevant to the section it was added to. Thoughts?--aethel (talk) 02:52, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
"Bullying" link
Bullying on here is a redirect to Cyberbullying and Fandom. The problem is that the link here is in reference to I Never Promised You A Rose Garden from the 1970s, well before the Internet. Would it be acceptable to remove the link so the word bullying would be left as regular text? Thank you. JKFAN (talk) 04:30, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
No Blaxploitation in Fandom
I was thinking of writing a page about Blaxploitation and I found that there are a only a couple of mentions of the word here. I also looked at AO3 and FFN to see if there were any stories about Coffy, Foxy Brown, Shaft, Super Fly or Blacula or which referenced Blaxploitation in some way, and found very little. That's another problem that could be addressed here in some way, that there's a whole great genre that's being ignored. JKFAN (talk) 02:36, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
"Splitting" the page
I think this page might cast too wide a net. Most of what is described here is specific to antiblackness in live-action hollywood movies and other forms of American media, plus the slash fandom for those movies/shows. What about colorism in kpop fandom? What about the depiction of biracial people in modern anime? Or even other forms of racism in hollywood, like Islamophobia and antisemitism? I think trying to address all of this in detail on one article would not only be extremely long, but also confusing. Lots of things described as "common" here are completely non-existent in media from other countries. What do others think of making separate pages for the different types of racism and the different fandoms, like: Antiblackness in Fandom, or more specifically, Antiblackness and Anime, for example. I think it would be more organized and this article could have a summary of those things and link to the longer article. TimeFan (talk) 01:19, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
- I like this, keeping in mind that Islamophobia and anti-Semitism are not racism, they're about religions. Both faiths have people of every race. There should be pages on those things as well, with examples how prejudices affect fans and their experiences in the same way as the misogyny and fandom page, etc. --KTJ (talk) 05:48, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
Fandom Racism Redirect?
Do we want to create a redirect to this page for the term "fandom racism"? It's very common phrase in discussions on tumblr and twitter, so it should either link here or be a glossary stub. I'm just not sure which would be better. Thoughts? -- Error cascade (talk) 06:45, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
Untamed Fandom
There are at least two prevalent pieces discussing race and fandom (particularly the interaction between white and Chinese fans in the fandom) here and here - was wondering if there should be a new topic here about race and fandom in MDZS, or have it be a separate page in general? Just some ideas!
- I'd say the general increase in western fans getting into C-drama, k-drama, etc (which spiked with The Untamed afaik) should be mentioned on the main Race and Fandom page, with some info about the sort of discussions people are having about it. But I would say in-depth analysis should either go on The Untamed page or a new page should be created specifically dedicated to Race/Transcultural Fandom issues in the Untamed fandom. -- Error cascade (talk) 05:22, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
Red-headed characters
Do we have anything here (or elsewhere) about the erasure of redheaded characters in TV adaptations? How much this relates to fandom specifically I don't know. However, it's one of those "obvious as soon as it's pointed out" things. I was reminded of it when I saw the premiere of Superman and Lois: Lana Lang has always been a redhead in comics. (As have Jimmy Olsen and Wally West, for that matter.) Much of the talk online is about the casting of black actors, presumably to increase racial diversity. However, though itself a laudable motive, that doesn't explain (a) why it's so often redheads who are recast, and (b) cases like Lana Lang where a red-headed white character is played by a brown-haired white actor.
I'm not suggesting it always happens. One case where the actor is a real redhead is adaptations of Anne of Green Gables, whose hair colour is pretty significant to canon. But then, in Riverdale, where Archie Andrews' naturally red hair is equally canonical, they cast a dark-haired actor! Requiring him to dye his hair for the part doesn't make it look any less artificial. --Greer Watson (talk) 22:34, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- The only way I could see discussion of casting characters with different hair colors than what they had in canon, as it would relate to race, would be if characters with distinct hair related to their race were casted without said iconic hair (ex: a black character with distinctive black styled hair such as box braids being cast as someone with more white-styled hair). If the red haired characters had red hair in relation to their race, such as people of a specific race who frequently have red hair/freckles being re-cast to be more attractive to American audiences by casting them with non-red hair/no freckles, then it seems like that could be applicable to this specific article. But if it's just simply casting characters that look different than their canon counterparts, with no relation to their races, I'm not sure if this would be the article for it since this one is specific to race. If there isn't already an article on it, perhaps an article about casting roles would be a better article to discuss general changes between comics/live action adaptations and fan reactions to it. I'm not sure if there is already an article on that or not. If there was, it might be under the discussion category. Patchlamb (talk) 23:10, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- It certainly is a discrimination issue, and can be very serious -- particularly for men -- but I'm not sure it can be classed as racial. Here's a little history: Nick Bramhill, Discrimination against redheads very real, says author. Irish Central, March 20, 2017. KTJ (talk) 16:07, February 26, 2021]
- Though I acknowledge a lot of discussion regarding race is very Western, expecially American, centric, I can't see it being to do with race much. The closest I've heard of is that in certain historical times red hair was associated with being Jewish, which is an ethnoreligion I believe and so hence it's partly linked to antisemitism. But race is a different thing to ethnicity. Source: wikipedia:Red_hair#Medieval_antisemitism - I haven't checked how accurate the sources on the page are mind. I wouldn't wish to speak over anyone who's more knowledgable on the subject.
- Perhaps giving it its own page, perhaps? What's everyone's thoughts? OfMonstersAndWerewolves (talk) 13:08, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
- By all means give it its own page. Though note that casting and race is covered in this article. (Links between them?)
- One thing that may be connected is the fannish proclivity for associating Mary Sues with red hair. In one way this is positive discrimination on the part of the writers: people writing self-insert Sueish characters often give them unusual characteristics (and red hair is certainly a minority trait). So fans who write red-headed non-canon characters are choosing that colouring. However, you also get your silver-haired elves and your bouncy brown-haired girls-next-door. Yet red hair (with green or purple eyes) is the colouring most associated with the general Sue trope; and "Mary Sue" is a negative term.
- By the way, red hair is not only historically associated with Jews. Red hair and green eyes are also associated with the Irish; and there was real prejudice against Irish immigrants in America—in the 19th c and perhaps early 20th (e.g. "No Irish" signs). Presumably also Canada, given Anne of Green Gables. Certainly, stereotypes about redheads persisted into my own childhood. In fact, I have seen them cited as an excuse even in this century (kind of along the lines of "Sorry, but I have red hair; and you know we all have a temper.") --Greer Watson (talk) 14:09, 26 February 2021 (UTC)