Talk:Asphyxiation

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I‘m not sure what the purpose is of having all these glossary pages for sex acts. Sex isn‘t a specific fannish thing and the terminology isn‘t particularly fannish. --Doro (talk) 21:18, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree. --MPH (talk) 23:31, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
So do I. --SecurityBreach (talk) 03:30, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
Per usual if there is fan content involving the subject matter, I don't see how it's not fannish. -Jacksbrak (talk) 03:35, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
If there's significant fannish content, yes. Trouble is, I don't see that here. --Greer Watson (talk) 04:59, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
That's another thing, though. This site is supposed to be a constant WIP, right? Where history is always evolving and growing. Stubs are supposedly okay/encouraged. At least when it comes to challenges. But then it seems like everyone wants complete articles right out of the gate. I'm not allowed to plant a seed? I find that to go against every post I've ever seen on tumblr/during challenges which encourage people to add whatever they can, and hopefully watch it grow. - Jacksbrak (talk) 06:05, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
You're right that we do welcome 'seeds' on Fanlore! But when a seed is planted on Fanlore - to continue the metaphor - then it requires additions from other editors to help it grow. If other editors to Fanlore can't find ways to add to the article that are relevant to Fanlore's remit, then the article will remain a stub forever, which isn't ideal. So, they might initiate a discussion on the Talk page about whether this is a suitable article for Fanlore.
I think it's important to note that querying the purpose of an article on Fanlore isn't an attack on the editor who started it. We have many types of discussions on Fanlore about what is suitable here and the best way for certain types of information to be added to the wiki. If editors disagree about this, it's not intended as a criticism or slight on anyone - it's just part of figuring out how to make Fanlore the most useful resource it can be. --enchantedsleeper (talk) 18:33, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
Glossary: "This category lists pages that define fannish vernacular." This is not fannish vernacular and doesn't fit in the glossary category. That these terms appear in fanfic or fanart doesn't change that and it makes no sense to define them on a fannish wiki as a glossary term. If there is enough fannish content, these topics might qualify for a trope page. See Category:Tropes & Genres. --Doro (talk) 08:41, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
Glossary vs. Trope is constructive feedback. But when you get back into spaces where something must be 'enough' it contradicts: "That being the case, anything can have a Fanlore page! We don’t have any sort of requirement that something be “popular” or “notable” enough, because every aspect of fandom, no matter how niche, is a part of fandom culture, and is a part of that story." (source). -Jacksbrak (talk) 18:55, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
I think there is some conflation happening here between what warrants inclusion on Fanlore and what warrants a dedicated page on Fanlore (especially a glossary page, as Doro has highlighted). If people query whether something warrants a page of its own, they're not necessarily saying that this topic has no relevance at all to Fanlore, but that there might not be enough to add to it to flesh out an entire page. The advice you've quoted above was more aimed at educating people about what kinds of topics can be documented on Fanlore. That includes, in this instance, sex or kink in fanworks! But there might be some discussions to be had about whether every single one of those sex acts or kinks needs its own page, depending on how much there is to say about them in a strictly fannish context (and I'm not just talking about examples of fanworks containing those sex acts; a page should contain other things like different fandoms' takes on these, ways that they have evolved over time, etc. etc. If it's hard to come up with information like that for each one, it may not be suitable for an entire page).
It's hard to reflect every single aspect of the nuance of editing Fanlore in a response to a Tumblr Ask; these aren't intended as iron-clad rules for editing Fanlore, but as guidance. There will always be some subjectivity in context, and discussing the ins and outs of that is what Talk pages are useful for :) --enchantedsleeper (talk) 18:33, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
All of that may be fine... But surely people can see how (almost) immediately jumping onto a page and asking if it matters, or if someone's work matters, etc. etc. is actually just a very good way to deter anyone from editing pages and fleshing out pages, or building the site up at all? Does it really hurt more to just let something be for a while or let folks plant their seeds and see what happens before questioning them/the content? Most of what's occurring is discouragement. Feels like everything I've ever done here is a total waste of my time, and energy, and passion. Hope you all have a good summer/winter, your hemisphere depending... -Jacksbrak (talk) 10:40, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
I also agree that we probably don't need a page for every type of sex act written about, I'm thinking an article about "Sex in Fanworks" or "Kink in Fanworks" might be a better idea, giving an overview, and if something becomes really popular, like A/B/O, to the extent that it's own trope or genre, then we can make a separate article. -- Kingstoken (talk) 10:08, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
This is also constructive. I've had negative reactions when trying to put together those kinds of pages too, though. If that's something you want me to compile, though, I'll put all the pages together which I've made recently. Just let me know. - Jacksbrak (talk) 18:55, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
I can see something like Asphyxiation in Fanworks being a legitimate topic for an article, assuming there's enough material to flesh out a page instead of a stub. (Or alternatively, if I correctly read what Kingstoken says, it might be more the size for a section in a wider-scope Kinks in Fanworks page.) I just don't see Asphyxiation as a Glossary page. In itself, asphyxiation isn't specifically fannish. It's when it's used in fanworks that it becomes relevant to Fanlore. --Greer Watson (talk) 23:02, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
I think a Kinks in Fanworks page would be great, that would encompass a lot and could even include a history section that could explore kinks as a whole across time and fandom. If there are specific kinks that have enough for a more detailed page relating to fanworks (like monster fucking or anal sex) that would be fine. Though, I do agree some kinks and sex acts are probably too miniscule for a whole dedicated page, so I still think a Kinks in Fanworks page would be much more informative and comprehensive of the topic, and a good place to include snippets on smaller kinks like asphyxiation. Patchlamb (talk) 17:01, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
I oppose the proposal to merge coverage of kinks into a single article. This could potentially create a distressing situation for many readers. Someone might be fine reading about certain kinks but not others. Like, someone might be interested in orgasm denial or feather kink, but not want to be exposed to material related to knifeplay, daddy kink, or breathplay. Consolidating kink coverage into a single article would make it more difficult for readers to control or limit the content they access. This is especially relevant because some pages include images or links that might be inadvertently clicked.
Fanlore has articles on marginal fan-writers in obscure fandoms. It has articles on forgotten zines with two issues. It has articles on regional cons from the 1970s. Trust me, I'm not complaining! I love diving into those articles and exploring the fascinating history of fandom. I'm just saying it seems odd to me to want to apply a Wikipedia-like standard of notability in this topic area but not elsewhere. If we can find room for two-issue zines, I think we can find room for kinks.
I get that a line will inevitably need to be drawn somewhere. Highly personal or specific kinks like "Kissing [Character]'s Neck Moles" or whatever probably don't warrant separate articles. But things with canonical tags on AO3 that a widely used throughout different fandoms are probably pretty safe. Night Rain (talk) 05:04, 28 July 2021 (UTC)