HPforGrownups

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Mailing List
Name: HPforGrownups (Harry Potter for Grownups)
Date(s): 17 September 1999 - present
Moderated: yes
Moderators/List Maintainers: Penny Linsenmayer
Founder(s): Barbara Drey
Type: discussion
Fandom: Harry Potter
URL: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
Click here for related articles on Fanlore.

HPforGrownups (a.k.a. Harry Potter for Grownups, HPfGU or HP4GU) is a Harry Potter Yahoo! Group founded in 1999. It moved to eGroups on August 24, 2000.

group activity log

It was described as "a friendly, thought-provoking place for adults to enjoy discussions of the Harry Potter books. It is a moderated list with very high volume. Along with the extensive discussion board, HPFGU feautures polls, essays, jokes, as well as scheduled chat sessions." [1]

This discussion list was very influential in shaping the Harry Potter fandom, and produced many BNFs that would found their own fanfiction archives. It was also infamous for its many ship wars and wanks.

HPforGrownups also sponsored Nimbus 2003, a Harry Potter con.

History

"HPfGU was formed as a Yahoo Club on September 17, 1999, with this terse inaugural post by Barbara Drey, the founder of the group: Welcome, This is the Yahoo! Message Board for Harry Potter for Grown Ups community." Well, it was a start. List volume for Week 1 of HPfGU was 4 messages, and three of those messages were from the founder. Things picked up quickly, however, and by the end of the first month, list volume had surged to 44 posts. On April 6, 2000, Barbara opted to step back from HPfGU and designated Penny Linsenmayer as List Mom. Barbara rejoined under another name." [2]

"The group continued to grow, taking in refugees from other Harry Potter discussion sites such as Harry Potter Anonymous, Virtual World of Harry Potter, and Unofficial Harry Potter Fan Club. Then list volume exploded - August 2000 saw over 3,000 posts. Message volume for July...August 2000 alone exceeded the cumulative message volume since the group's inception 10 months earlier. Members began expressing dissatisfaction with the limitations of the format and features of Yahoo! Clubs. The group decided to migrate to egroups on August 24, 2000. In February 2001, egroups merged into Yahoo! Groups. By Summer 2000, the crop of incoming members included intrepid Harry Potter pioneers such as Skimmel, Norevoli, Simon Branford, Melanie (Ravensclawlady), Lexicon Steve, Sister Mary Lunatic, Nick (babynick), Dave Hardenbrook, Voicelady, Catlady, John Walton, Dee (Gypsy Caine), Carol, Jen P., Heidi Tandy, Joywitch, Ebony, and Neil Ward - most of whom are still active in HPfGU today." [3]

On Aug 26, 2000, it became a Yahoo Group.

Membership Size

  • August 24, 2000 600 members
  • March 31, 2001 1,000 members
  • August 31, 2001 2,000 members
  • November 30, 2001 3,000 members
  • April 15, 2002 4,000 members
  • July 23, 2007, 27015 members
  • August 15, 2016, 26399 members

List Elves

"As membership numbers increased, group leaders developed the idea of 'newbie moderators' in April 2001, which morphed into 'List Elves,' who are personal resources for each new member.... As Mods and Elves retired, they became Poltergeists, offering sage advice and words of wisdom on policy matters." [4]

Canon Issues/Nitpicking/LOONing

"The first member to take LOON-ing (L.O.O.N. is League of Obsessed Nitpickers) to the next level in terms of sheer comprehensiveness and painstaking attention to detail was Joywitch, who outlined a series of 32 mysteries in a three-part post (C2215, C2216 and C2218, 6/18/00). Indeed, Joywitch's list was so comprehensive that many of these issues form the basis for spirited LOONing to this day." [5]

Filking

"The first FILK was a ditty by Randy Estes, who rose to the challenge to devise a Harry Potter version of the song from 'Pirates of Penzance' - 'I Am the Very Model of an Adult Harry Potter Fan.'

Since then, list members have generated 593 posts with 'FILK' in the subject header, with the most recent called 'The Wizard World,' to Disney's 'A Whole New World.' (Nicole (nplyon), 10/11/02). Caius Marcius alone has posted over 250 FILKs in almost every conceivable musical style, demonstrating a range that spans from 'Moaning Myrtle' (to the tune of 'Mona Lisa') (2/18/01) to 'Taunt Your Children Well' (to the tune of 'Teach Your Children Well - (A Snape Filk')) (3/10/01). [6]

Fanfic

"On April 17, 2000 in Message C1082, fanfic made its debut on the list. Jeralyn wrote, 'I'm going to start writing a story, and each of you will continue it. To keep things from getting messy, I will SELECT someone to continue. That person will write the next bit, and then he or she will designate the next storyteller, and so on.' No Redeemable!Draco, no Vampire!Snape, and no Mary Sues for this particular fic. Instead Jeryalyn chose the title 'How Hagrid Became a Hero.' There were 16 installments, each with its own unique style of nail-biting drama..." [7]

Shortly after this round-robin began, a fan named Penny made the first fanfic recommendation. It was for Lori Summers' Paradigm of Uncertainty.

OT-Chatter List

"The OT-Chatter list, established February 7, 2001, is now the equivalent of the town square for much of the community building that takes place at HPfGU. OT-Chatter was originally formed after list volume on the main list reached an all-time high of 3,086 in January 2001. A great many of the main list posts did not discuss the Harry Potter books, but instead reflected the close personal relationships among list members. There were recipes, discussions of unusual foods (spotted dick?), introductions and forays into social and cultural issues." [8]

Top Posters

The twelve fans who posted over 500 messages between the beginning of the group and September 2002 were:

  • Dee Rogers (789 posts)
  • Cindy C. (786 posts)
  • Amandageist (1314 posts)
  • Amy Z (1108 posts)
  • Penny Linsenmayer (1483 posts)
  • Neil Ward (1069 posts)
  • Catlady (1136 posts)
  • Joywitch (641 posts)
  • Heidi Tandy (744 posts)
  • Caius Marcius (625 posts)
  • Pippin (612posts)
  • Susan McGee (571 posts)
  • Ebony (522 posts)

Some other prolific posters:

Inish Alley

Inish Alley

As is common on the Internet, where all communication is typed, a shorthand evolved on HPfGU to encapsulate oft-used ideas and phrases. In honor of such HP shorthand such as S.P.E.W., N.E.W.T, and O.W.L., HPfGU developed its own set of abbreviations. Early shorthand that developed on HPfGU had a decidedly unpronounceable quality, e.g., SS/PS, PoA, GoF, F.I.T.D. (Farmer in the Dell), S.S.H.A.B. (Stop Saying Hermione is a Bossy Braggart, [26480]). Most of these earlier abbreviations were 'clubs' that people joined if they wanted to show agreement with the concept or theory. Price of joining was two sickles, of course.

In late 2001, people began developing actual acronyms: abbreviations that were themselves words or phrases. P.I.N.E. (Percy. Is. Not. Evil.) and C.R.A.B. (Cut Ron a Break) were among the first to display this characteristic. On September 22, 2001, Luke tried his hand at creating an acronym to respond to Penny's astonishment at an anti-Harry thread.

> I nominate Ebony or Jenny to come up with a good acronym for us Harry fans!
I'm not Ebony or Jenny (as best as I can remember) but I'm with you on this one. Unfortunately I seem to have stumbled upon a creative dryspell. Some days I'm better at this. My first thought was How Anyone Can Not Love Harry Is Beyond Us, but H.A.C.N.L.H.I.B.U just lacked--I don't know--that special ring to it. :-)
And so I deliberated on many other possibilities, but the only halfway decent one I came up with was:
A.S.T.O.N.I.S.H.E.D. ([A]t [S]tatements [T]hat [O]bject to [N]ice, [I]ntelligent, [S]weet [H]arry's [E]ndearing [D]emeanor)
It's a bit too long, and not properly descriptive of these alleged anti-Harry-ites complaints, but I enjoyed the fact that the acronym was also the first word of the sentence.

And so it began. What Luke characterized as 'too long' became the standard for HPfGU acronym-making. The intrepid Tabouli began to crank out acronyms at such a rate that she set up T.A.G.S. (Tabouli's Acronym-Generating Service) to provide acronyms for any theory or idea that needed one. Other listies soon joined in the fun.

Early acronyms tended to be single words, the longer the better. The longest single-word acronym on the list is "ANTIDISTESTABLISHMENTARIANISM" [About Neville (Teenager in Distress in Snape's Educational Snare--Terribly Absentminded Boy)'s Lackadaisical Intellect: Severely Horrible Memory Enhancement Necessary Tool Assisting Rehabilitation Initiative = Absolute Nightmare-Inducing Spotty Memory].

Listies soon raised the stakes, and acronyms became entire sentences. The longest, at an impressive 32 letters, is "SAVE HAGRID FROM COMPLETE DISRESPECT!" [Should Albus and Voldemort Epic Hurtle Against Goodness, Remember: Indomitable Determination From Rubeus and Olympe May Contribute Outstandingly to Master Potter's Lasting Efforts To Eliminate Darkness. Indeed, Stalwart Rubeus' Enormous Strength and Power Ends Conflict Totally!].

In early 2002, a database called Inish Alley began to catalog these acronyms so that listies could translate posts from Acronym into English. Tabouli's most famous acronym, L.O.L.L.I.P.O.P.S. (Love Of Lily Left Ire Poisoning Our Poor Severus), graced a sailing ship in the waters of a tranquil bay, and listies frolicked on its deck and sampled its hors d'oeuvres. These antics soon evolved into another phenomenon entirely... [10]

Theory Bay

Explanations of the theories, vessels, and personified characters of Theory Bay: Fantastic Posts Hypothetic Alley: Flying With The Can(n)on.

In Spring 2002, a new posting style emerged on the main list. Rather than discuss canon in an essay style, posters began to use extended metaphors and dialogue, with posts set in the fictional universe now known as Theory Bay. No character was too insignificant, no theory too subversive, no speculation too wild for Theory Bay - so long as the post somehow answered to the oft-repeated question, 'Where's the can(n)on?'

These days, Theory Bay is awash with dozens of vessels of varying degrees of seaworthiness, including a hovercraft, a destroyer, a barge, a majestic sailing vessel, a Cal 20 racing boat, a kayak, a dinghy, a raft, a rowboat, various innertubes and lifeboats, a make-shift catamaran, an inflatable wading pool, and a jet ski.

As the Bay became more crowded, theorists sprawled into the adjacent yet-to-be-named town. Local landmarks now include a canon museum with basement meeting rooms and dioramas, a movie set, a studio trailer, a radio studio, a psychiatric treatment facility, a tattoo parlor, a castle, a safe house, a volleyball court, a canon college, a professor's office, a tavern, a restaurant, and a walking path.

All of it beachfront, of course. [11]

June 2001: Word Hits the List Regarding Cassandra Claire's Ban from FFN

Regarding discussion on the list about Cassandra Claire's ban from FanFiction.net due allegations of plagiarism? Unfortunately and very frustratingly, there appear to be missing posts regarding the 2001 expulsion of Cassandra Claire from Fanfiction.net on the Harry Potter for Grown-ups list, giving a revisionist and censored look at fan history. [12]

The four comments below are all that remain:

The first mention of the ban on the mailing list was on June 23, two days later, when a fan, Samantha, stated: "since that *damn* thing on ff.net about Cassie, I'm not posting on ff.net anymore." Another fan, Meg Rose, asked: "Why? With Cassie?" Heidi8 replied: "hi -- anyone who wants to quit ffnet, like I did earlier today should check into the hp_fanfiction yahoogroup -- you can post your fics there." The list mods then reminded fans that: "Discussions about the blacklisting of Cassie should please move over to our OT-Chatter List (which is where all fanfic discussion should be.)" The next day, Rowena, explained: "I'm replying. Apparently cassie has been blacklisted from the site for plagarism. If you would like to read more, try the Paradigm of Uncertainty group... The group has really gone ballistic over this."

November 2001: Moderation of New Members

Moderation of New Members

Since its inception, all members of HPfGU could post freely to the main list until they committed an infraction or series of infractions serious enough to justify a stint on moderated status. With the release of the PS/SS movie in November 2001 followed quickly by a New York Times article that mentioned HPfGU, however, new membership subscriptions soared overnight. Some days brought over 100 new members.

Alas, too many of these new members displayed much more enthusiasm for Harry Potter than familiarity with list rules. Rules violations at that time were addressed with after-the-fact, off-list Howlers, and one distressing weekend forced one Moderator to send over 50 Howlers. Veteran list members complained, and some members left due to the rise in message volume coupled with the decline in message quality.

Something had to be done.

On November 28, 2001, the Moderator Team implemented a significant policy change to improve message quality on the main list. In Message 30307, Moderator John announced the temporary moderation of all new members:

[W]e've decided to introduce an introductory period of membership to the list.
Moderated Status allows the Moderators to check the posts for compliance with the rules before releasing them to the group at large.
Please understand that this change in policy is by no means designed to discourage our new members from participating in our group. Each new member brings his or her unique point of view to the community, and it is this diversity of perspective, experience and personality that keeps the list exciting, interesting and fresh. We hope all of you will continue to offer your insights and contribute to our discussions.

Since then, the Moderators, List Elves and Poltergeists have approved, edited or rejected over 5,000 messages to the main list.

And the veteran list members rejoiced. [13]

February and March 2002: A Hacked Account, and A Moderator Deletes Files

A Hack

On February 13, 2002, a fan named "Mafalda Hopkirk" joined the HP4GU's chat. Mafalda ranted against list mods, namely Penny and John, citing unfair moderating and heavy-handedness. Many fans argued with her both about her antagonistic accusations, and for her use of using a pseud.

Even Cassandra Claire got into the mix, both chiding Mafalda for her claims and for Malfalda's inept use of the word "viputerate." when she meant "vituperate":
Well, I had lunch with JK Rowling yesterday, on board her sailing ship The Saucy Sue. She told me everything that's going to happen in Book Seven. Harry and Hermione are going to get married, and Rod will sell his family down the river for fifty knuts and a goat. And now I'm going to post all this information anonymously, so you can possibly check up on my story, and then I'm going to exhort you to believe, even though I like flaming lists without using my name, because it is a great way to engender trust. But you guys should believe me, because -- because I say so! * bursts into tears of vexed ire* Excuse me, I have to go viputerate someone now. Cassandra" [14]

On February 14, the mods wrote a long post to the list explaining that Mafalda was actually a long-time fan named Sinead, that Sinead had confessed, and she had been put on moderated status. The mods emphasized that while they were shocked and hurt by Sinead's actions, they felt that everyone made mistakes and that there was no reason to ban her. [15]

Sinead herself made an apology to the list on February 14th, citing boyfriend problems and general unhappiness. [16]

On February 16, she left a short post saying the mods had banned her [17], something that was untrue. [18]

A fan in 2003 recounts this event:
Was briefly caught in the big affair concerning a rather deranged Sinead. I spied on her for Heidi and Cassie in a 3 hour chat to reveal the that she hacked and deleted HP4GU. Then Stacey revealed me to Sinead accidentally, and so went my experience as a detective/spy. I was rather good at fishing answers out of her while pretending to be very sweet. And stupid. Very stupid. [19]
Heidi8's comments from 2013:
The girl who claims that Cassie tried to get her kicked out of her Uni is named Sinead; Cassie was not involved in anything regarding the aftermath of Sinead’s hacking (alongside her then-boyfriend and possibly others) into a mutual friend’s Yahoo account (yes, they admitted to it) or the subsequent deletion of the main Harry Potter for Grownups list. [20]

There is much about this, all tangled up in other stuff, of course, in these comments from 2006: seeThe Msscribe Story, Preface and Chapter One.

Deleted Files

In March 2002, one of the group's mailing lists was deleted.

... in the early morning of St. Patrick's day, a Sunday that year, Yahoo upgraded their servers; no problems at first, but by late afternoon, some of our groups, including the main list, were showing as 'not existing'. At first we thought it was just a Yahoo snafu, but we soon realized otherwise. Someone had deleted the main list. Penny got into an email exchange with Yahoo, then had a series of phone calls with them, and luckily they were able to restore our groups, and they did verify that someone had indeed deleted them. Penny *also* got an email confirming that she'd changed her password, which she'd not done.

Sinead had been in Sunday chat that afternoon and bragged that she'd had 'powerful friends' (the implication that folks being mean to her better think twice), and some anonymous person joined the chat under an id of Moderator followed by a number (e.g., Moderator47886; the actual id is probably in a file somewhere..) and said his name was 'Paul,' that he was an 'independent' moderator for AOL or somesuch, and that he'd gotten reports that someone in our chat had been accused of hacking; at some point he commented that he could 'access some people's accounts'. Most people figured it was Dai.

For some weeks, we didn't have evidence of who it was that hacked Penny's account and deleted our group. As people had been growing more and more frustrated with Sinead's presence in Sunday chat, a couple folks found a new room we could use, a room which would allow people to be booted; one of the means the chatters used to keep out Sinead was that they would require people wanting in to chat to send an email to a certain account. The person watching the account would then check the IP. They were able to keep Sinead out this way, along with a friend of hers, someone calling himself 'thepalestinianrockthrower' and 'psycho_draco'. Records of the IPs were kept.

Eventually they were able to trace the IP of 'palestinian / draco' and learned this was a teenaged boy who was a friend of Sinead's named Jon Popper. Penny also eventually learned that he and Sinead hacked Penny's account the same way she and Dai had hacked John's, and they then deleted any groups Penny owned. After having evidence of two hacking incidents, we did file a complaint against Sinead with Boston University (she was attending there and used her student account both times). Penny also phoned Jon's parents, spoke with his mother. She had no idea what her son had been up to, he denied it when she asked him, but Penny explained to her about the evidence we had, assured her we had no wish to press charges, sue, etc., but I believe she did ask for Jon's assurance he would stay away from our groups. Far as I know, he has.

Far as I know too, Sinead still denies the hacking; heh, she even claimed in one of those Sunday chats that what they did wasn't illegal, and that it's not illegal when one has a paid account like AOL (that was Dai's ISP). Sigh, whatever. Iirc, one of the things that pissed me off most re her posts on Writer's U was that I (though she doesn't name me) 'fabricated' the IM conversation she and I had, to frame her, I guess. [21]

Heidi8 explained in Fic: Why Fanfiction Is Taking Over the World (2013):

The large-for-that-time Harry Potter for Grownups Yahoo group, which hosted over 4,500 messages per month at its peak, suffered a few nerve-racking months when a former mod decided to retaliate against the community. Her complaints to Yahoo resulted in the deletion of one of the group's organizational mailing lists, and forced us to close the files section. If someone uploaded a random song, then had a friend complain to Yahoo, under their terms of service they could close a whole community down. Then, it got worse. After she unsubscribed herself from the mods' organizational list, the mod claimed complete ownership of the posts she had made, and only stopped her harassment when I successfully argued to Yahoo that she had granted the group a license to her posts for archival purposes. [22]
The darkest day for the list was, without question, The Day The List Went Dark. On March 17, 2002, the main list was hacked and deleted in its entirety. Thanks to the considerable efforts of the list administrators, the list was restored that day, and Moderator John breathed a collective sigh of relief for HPfGU. [23]

A list mod, John Walton, posted on behalf of all the mods:

Well, folks, that's a relief. Welcome back to HPforGrownups. It looks like everything is in order over here and at the other lists which were *ahem* out of order for a day or so. A massive thank you to the techies at YahooGroups who managed to rescue our groups intact. We all certainly appreciate it. So, folks post away!... We might have some information for you soon -- we're still investigating the people who did this... we know who they are, and are considering our options now. Hooray! Amy, Catherine, Cindy, John, Kelley, Neil & Penny, The Very Happy HPFGU Moderator Team [24]

While the former mod who deleted the file is not named here, the person responsible may have been someone involved in a political dust-up and mass resignation of Moderators in March 2002 described a year later by Joywitch M. Curmudgeon:

As we all know, HPfUG is run by an admin team of 30 or so list elves and poltergeists. Currently, the admin team makes decisions democratically. In the past, the admin team was divided into two groups -- the elves/poltergeists, and a smaller group of about 8 people called The Moderators, who had a separate Yahoo list, and who were the ultimate authority here on HPfGU. [Name redacted] was one of those moderators. Last March, the Moderators asked [name redacted] to leave the moderator team, but did not ask her to leave the admin team. Many of the list elves and poltergeists were outraged, and came to [name redacted's] defense. A small revolution ensued, and when the dust cleared, most of the moderators had resigned from the admin team, and some from HPfGU as well.... When the Moderators resigned, the admin team was facilitated by Amy Z, and then later I became assistant facilitator. [25]

For much more of this discussion, see the Harry Potter for Grownups OT-Chat (a public group) posts: #19638, #19639, #19648, #19649, #19651... and many more in this thread.

External Links

Archived discussions are located at HPforGrownups-Archives and HPforGrownups-Archives2. The latter has this message: "This group houses archived messages 32000 to 52999 for our current Yahoo Group "HPforGrownups." You cannot post messages to this group. Its function is to provide a handy method to obtain our Group's messages."

See also:

References

  1. Activities - There's Something About Harry!, Archived version
  2. HPfGU - Fantastic Posts: The History of Harry Potter for GrownUps, Archived version by Penny Linsenmayer and Cindy C., posted October 2002
  3. HPfGU - Fantastic Posts: The History of Harry Potter for GrownUps, Archived version by Penny Linsenmayer and Cindy C., posted October 2002
  4. HPfGU - Fantastic Posts: The History of Harry Potter for GrownUps: 'Talk Amongst Yourselves' Growth of the Main List, Archived version by Penny Linsenmayer and Cindy C., posted October 2002
  5. HPfGU - Fantastic Posts: The History of Harry Potter for GrownUps: 'Hey, Did Anyone Else Notice . . . ?' First Frequently Asked Questions, Archived version by Penny Linsenmayer and Cindy C., posted October 2002
  6. HPfGU - Fantastic Posts: The History of Harry Potter for GrownUps: 'Hey, Did Anyone Else Notice . . . ?' First Frequently Asked Questions, Archived version by Penny Linsenmayer and Cindy C., posted October 2002
  7. HPfGU - Fantastic Posts: The History of Harry Potter for GrownUps: 'It Was a Dark and Stormy Night ...' HPfGU and Fanfic, Archived version by Penny Linsenmayer and Cindy C., posted October 2002
  8. HPfGU - Fantastic Posts: The History of Harry Potter for GrownUps: 'We. Are. Family.' The HPfGU Community, Archived version by Penny Linsenmayer and Cindy C., posted October 2002
  9. HPfGU - Fantastic Posts: The History of Harry Potter for GrownUps: Appendix C, Archived version
  10. HPfGU - Fantastic Posts: The History of Harry Potter for GrownUps: 'It's Like Alphabet Soup Out There!' Inish Alley, Archived version by Penny Linsenmayer and Cindy C., posted October 2002
  11. HPfGU - Fantastic Posts: The History of Harry Potter for GrownUps: 'Water, Water Everywhere...' Theory Bay, Archived version by Penny Linsenmayer and Cindy C., posted October 2002
  12. "I couldn't find those last year when I was researching the incident on mailing lists, so I assume that deletion is of much longer standing." -- comment by Avocado: the brawl, August 2006
  13. HPfGU - Fantastic Posts: The History of Harry Potter for GrownUps: 'Houston, We Have a Problem!' Moderation of New Members, Archived version by Penny Linsenmayer and Cindy C., posted October 2002
  14. message #9256, February 13, 2002, HP4GU OT-Chatter
  15. message #9481, HP4GU OT-Chatter
  16. "I don't blame you guys for being mad at me, I realized, right after I posted the last one, that it was a mistake all along and I was incredibly immature to do that. I was blinded by anger, really I was. I had a fight with my boyfriend, my suitemate told me to leave, and all sorts of schnit. ...I'm sorry that if Malfalda/Sinead tried to break up the list... [I feel] bad for angering the masses of OT-chatter and won't do it again if [I] join another fandom." -- message #9300, February 14, 2002, Harry Potter for Grownups Chatter
  17. "I've just been asked to leave the group and HPFGU in general in the wake of Mafalda.... Sorry this happened to me and I really sincerely regret it... Goodbye, Sinead.." -- message #9350, February 16, 2002, HP4GU OT-Chatter
  18. "Sinead has most assuredly not been asked in any way to leave any of the HPfGU's groups by any member of the Moderator Team. We regret that she has decided to remover herself from the groups. Kelley, for the Moderator Team." -- message #9356, Feburary 16, 2002
  19. This fan goes on to say:"Hmmm, basically Stacey walked out of the fandom without warning, and all the mods at FA.org scrambled a bit to get used to not having her around. Most people resent her for not being responsible and such, and some unpleasant words were exchanged. Aja is calling Stacey a stalker, and all the fandom big-people are now a bit paranoid about each other, and calling each other psychos. *shrug* I tend to keep myself out of it after Sinead left. -- Hydy: Really Long Fandom History, comments from July 31, and October 19, 2003
  20. Heidi8's comments: Heidi8.tumblr; archive link, September 2013
  21. The Msscribe Story, Preface and Chapter One, thread of comments, August 2006
  22. from Heidi8's chapter in fic: Why Fanfiction Is Taking Over the World
  23. Harry Potter for GrownUps: A History, by Penny Linsenmayer and Cindy C.
  24. message #36647, March 18, 2002, HP4GU Archive
  25. November 13, 2003 message #19638, Harry Potter for Grownups OT-Chat, post by Joywitch M. Curmudgeon. One quote: "[Name redacted] has consistently, first from her position as a Moderator, then from her position as a member of the admin team, and more recently in her position on the FAQ team, tried to unduly influence and manipulate both people and circumstances in an attempt to gain leadership of the HPfGU community."