In support of Ordover

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Title: In support of Ordover
Creator: Writebrother (almost certainly a sockpuppet for John Ordover, as was "JourneyToXTC" and possibly "Phile4U"), and also many commenters
Date(s): October 11, 1999
Medium: online
Fandom: some small focus on The X-files and Star Trek, but really multi-fandom
Topic:
External Links: In support of Ordover, Archived version
Click here for related articles on Fanlore.

In support of Ordover is a 1999 post to alt.tv.x-files.creative by Writebrother (almost certainly a sockpuppet for John Ordover). The post generated many fan comments, as well as at least one, if not two, more Ordover sockpuppets.

An Ordover Pattern

This post was written in response to The Bridges of Ordover County which had been posted a few days earlier, and it fit a pattern.

Many fans on the Usenet sites refused to use his given name, referring to him as "O," or "the man they dare not say his name," or "J*hn *rd*v*r at P*ck*t B**ks." This was done in attempts to keep Ordover from coming to the discussion groups, as many fans believed he searched his name and showed up after his name was mentioned on the list. [1] [2]

Topics Discussed

The Original Post

<<decloaking with shields on maximum....>>

It seems to me you guys are turning your back on a Golden Opportunity here by jumping on Ordover's back.

Like him or hate him, he's an -editor- for gosh sakes, and he -does- have inside info on how Big Time publishing works. He's also written at least one and maybe two (I can't remember) episodes of DS9, so he knows about that, too, and he's had a bunch of short-stories published.

I admit he's a bit abrasive, but he seems to respond to serious questions (inlcuding mine) quite well, at least he does on AOL and on his Trek Q&A on the trekbooks site. Even if you're not up for anything but fan fiction, what he has to say could be helpful and informative or at least interesting, even if it's not what you'd like to hear.

That's all from me.

<<<activating cloak now, going into warp>>>

Fan Comments

[Hey-Nonny-Nonny Maus]:

Greetings, Writebrother. <smile>

I'm not sure that you actually need your shields on - I don't think that you will get flamed for politely expressing a divergent opinion. <reassuring smile>

I think it likely that many people here, probably most, are utterly uninterested in *ever* pursuing a professional writing career. And John Ordover says the *same* thing (which is only helpful to those few) over and over and over and over and over and over and.... You get the idea. Also, many people have expressed the opinion that the information given is given far over to the _absolute, no room for doubt_ side of the spectrum (AKA, that is the *ONLY* way to Rome), and in a somewhat condescending/otherwise unfriendly manner -- And to most people *anywhere*, that is likely to put your message at a disadvantage.

There is also a wide range of opinions on what is actually likely to help someone get published, many of which have been expressed here -- and of which many do not agree with Mr. Ordover's interpretations. Many of us are left in the quandary of do we believe the advice of other writing professionals, who are giving us message A; or do we believe someone who exhibits tendencies that cast doubt upon his messages, who is giving us message Z.

I myself had seen Mr. Ordover on the CIS SFRT/SFMEDIA forums for many years, where he didn't act like this. (Or not _NEARLY_ this bad.) But he *IS* acting like this _*HERE*_. And it may be just a teeny bit unfair to expect us to judge someone based on his behavior in other places where most of us have never been, as opposed to the behavior he is exhibiting in *OUR* playground.

Thank you for listening, and allowing me to express a divergent opinion to yours. <warm smile>

Sincerely,

Hey-Nonny-Nonny Maus

[JourneyToXTC, widely considered to be one of John Ordover's sockpuppets]:

Like him or hate him, he's an -editor- for gosh sakes, and he -does- have inside info on how Big Time publishing works. And it *is* a business--no matter those who may cry that writing comes from the soul, etc.

He's also written at least one and maybe two (I can't remember) episodes of DS9, so he knows about that, too, and he's had a bunch of short-stories published. John, have you written any novels? I enjoyed your short story in the first Strange New Worlds volume. I admit he's a bit abrasive

Sometimes, that seems to be what it takes. Although, one usually gathers more flies with honey...but who wants flies? ;)

[Kim/JourneytoX]: Oh for God's sake!!!!!!!

[Dasha K]:

Hi kids, do you know how to spell sockpuppet?

S-O-C-K-P-U-P-P-E-T

I knew you could. A cookie for you.

[Gwen]:

Gee, in this case I thought it was spelled a bit differently.

D-U-M-B-A-S-S

Guess no cookie for me :-(

[GeoRed]: This is cheap.

[Dasha K;]: What can you say, cheap things come from little minds who like to stoop to lowdown stuff.

[Phile4U, likely an Ordover sockpuppet]:

For anyone who cares, here are a few Ordover mentions in items from media:

[snipped, multiple cut and pasted articles from mainstream press about John Ordover and his accomplishments]

[Hey-Nonny-Nonny Maus]:

S-O-C-K-P-U-P-P-E-T

No, No, Dasha, that couldn't be it!! After all, if John Ordover was hiding himself under other names just to praise himself when nobody else was going to, and to ask himself questions, what would ever happen if someone tracked this down with a sniffer and his bosses found out, especially if he was doing it on corporate time? Or what about other publishing houses in New York? Why, after Pocket Books took the hit for hiring someone like that, and his name was a laughing stock throughout the publishing industry, what would happen? Why, he would be in such dire straits that it would be unbelievable! No, no I just *can't* believe that JourneytoXTC and Writebrother and ORDOVER should be checked out by someone with these skills -- Someone who is an Executive Editor for a line of tie-in novels would *NEVER* be stupid enough to do something like _THAT_.

[JourneyToXTC]:

<<Sockpuppet; dumbass; cheap; little minds stopping to lowdown stuff.>>

Directed at me for my screen name, I suspect. And yet, the...sockpup-- er, person who posted the tacky Ordover/Bridges parody gets praised for doing essentially the same thing.

You all are praising each other, swapping and spewing beer over insults to Ordover, continuing the cheap, dumbass, lowdown stuff.

[Kipler]:

<< You all are praising each other, swapping and spewing beer over insults to Ordover, continuing the cheap, dumbass, lowdown stuff. >>

Actually, we are NOT all doing that. Despite the fact that Mr. Ordover was downright snide to me - implying that my lack of interest in getting published must be "sour grapes" - I don't believe I've said one dumbass thing to him.

If Mr. Ordover really wants people to hear his message, then he needs to speak it in a manner that allows people to hear it. At present, he's not doing that. You feel that we're missing a golden opportunity to learn from someone who's a professional editor. I feel that Mr. Ordover is missing a golden opportunity to learn about the tone that he uses when he speaks (or types) to people. While I have no advice to offer anyone on the ng about how to get published, I can offer pretty solid advice on teaching. I have spent the past 14 years learning to communicate a message to an audience so that my tone doesn't put a wall between me and the people I'm speaking to. Any disdain or condescension that shows up in my voice will distance me from my students - and will make them defensive, rather than receptive to my words.

In cyberspace, the need to edit for tone is perhaps even greater than in real life. No facial expressions, no vocal cues are available - no smirking, no smiling, no teasing. There are only the words themselves. When an author's tone puts people on the defensive, then he himself gets in the way of his own message, and it's time to look for a way around that problem.

In short, if Mr. Ordover really does come into the ngs with positive intentions - to help aspiring authors achieve publication - he is far less effective in his efforts than he might be, largely because his tone puts people on the defensive. Meanwhile, other folks with virtually the same message are welcomed, heard, given beer and cybercookies. So I must ask: What do the

effective newsgroup communicators know that Mr. Ordover does not?

[JourneyToXTC]:

And there is nothing in "MasterOrdover" that the sockpuppet "owns" save for the "Master." [3]

<shrug>

I'm not trying to pass myself off as you--though the sockpuppet signed "J. Ordover" to his/her/its post; seems s/he is trying to pass a tacky piece of fan fiction off on Ordover. Of course we know Ordover is too smart to spend his time writing fanfic when he could be writing/editing professional works.

XTC = "Journey to Ecstasy"

[Hey-Nonny-Nonny Maus]:

Since AOL only permits 10 characters in its screen names, it seems likely that "journeytoxtc" with 12 characters is a faked-name. And since a regular poster here has the AOL registration of "JourneytoX", it is also likely that the fake name you have chosen could be interpreted as a slam.

I suspect highly that many people on this group would enjoy finding out with exactitude the precise person who posted [ The Bridges of Ordover County]... If only to shake their hand. <shrug>

It is my belief that if anyone has praised the person/persons who posted that story for doing so under a non-legitimate name (I remember *no one* that has done that), that the reasons they might have *enjoyed* that story enough to do so might be found in my previous message, the one to which you replied. If you wish to learn, in a calm fashion, those reasons, I point you towards that post.

I don't think anyone on this group "has it in" for Mr. Ordover. Tired of what seems to equate to a deluge -- That one I could believe. <shrug> And when people get tired of something, they tend to blow off steam in one way or another -- Like proving an accusation of not being able to effectively write incorrect.

If you, or Mr. Ordover, wishes to learn to get along with this group, I do not think you will find it difficult. I sincerely do hope that you are not another name for John Ordover -- I have sincere hopes that he would never stoop to something that "cheap, dumbass, lowdown".

[JourneyToXTC]:

1) Ordover's post was aimed at those who want to be professionally published.

2) He said their (people who want to be professionally published) time would be better spent writing PRO fic as opposed to fanfic, because the latter really won't help them get published. A pro publisher isn't going to care how many fans you have online, or how many zines you've been published in, or how many hits your website has. Ordover works in the business, he knows how it works.

3) Ordover never said that people who *don't* want to be pro published should stop writing fanfic. If he did, I would appreciate someone pointing out the post to me, because I haven't seen it.

4) Yes, Ordover does have an abrasive manner, but so do other professional editors (not all of them, I'm sure, but publishing is a business and they generally don't have time to coddle). The publishing world isn't all bubbles and butterfly wings.

5) Please tell me in rational terms what you disagree with in any of this.

[Dasha K.]:

>5) Please tell me in rational terms what you disagree with in any of this.

I think we mostly disagree with you writing under a name that is meant to mock a long-time poster to ATXC. Come on, we know who you are, why don't you post under your regular name and quit with the cute shenanigans? I mean, sigh, how tired...

[Hey-Nonny-Nonny Maus]:

5) Please tell me in rational terms what you disagree with in any of this.

Respectfully, Journey -- We just hashed over this silly mess *THREE OR LESS DAYS AGO* in the mega-thread "Article on Print Erotica". Since you seem to have read everything that Mr. Ordover wrote there, please go back and (re?)read all the _responses_ to what he wrote. I know you would, as a responsible, thinking, polite person *never* want to put an entire newsgroup to extra trouble to save yourself a few hours reading. If after that point you still need clarifications on the responses, please quote messages, and *THEN* ask for clarification. Thank you.

Also, please note in the message in _this_ thread that I asked you to read, that I pointed out that not everyone agrees with Mr. Ordover's advice on how to get professionally published, and some of the reasons *why* we do not agree. Since Mr. Ordover has not yet seen fit to reply to many of the messages pointing out those reasons in other threads (I wonder why?), I am hampered as to giving you his response.

[GeoRed]:

Thing is, the parody was very obviously that.....a parody. There was no mistaking that that was *not* John Ordover who wrote it. By fashioning your screen name so closely to that of someone else on the newsgroup.....someone that has her own opinions and is a regular poster here......you seem to be intentionally attempting to make people think that you *are* that person. I

almost missed it myself, the resemblance is so close. I may not have realized it if Kim herself hadn't responded to your post. That is very trollish behavior.

[katrina]:

I like Kim. A *lot*. She speaks her mind, stands up for what she believes in, and is very confident about her ability to do both. What's more, she does so under her own name. (Other than the "Bridges" spoof, but if anyone honestly thinks that was Mr. Ordover, they are, in my Grandma's words, "touched in the head.)

I honestly *don't* know who this XTC person is, as I try to ignore the cliques and clubs and dodge ball teams around here. But if XTC is a regular, and he/she doesn't have the guts to speak his/her mind about Kim under his/her own name, then take it to email.

[JourneyToXTC]:

GeoRed says I'm showing trollish-behavior. What was [email protected] [4] doing?

Is their behavior better because they were parodying someone whom the majority here plainly dislike?

I never signed "Kim" or "JourneyToX" to any of my posts. As I stated, I am not her, nor am I trying to be. [email protected] signed "J. Ordover," clearly an impersonation.

Do long-time posters have license to do things that newbies cannot?

[email protected] seems to have no prior history here, either, yet was welcomed with open arms.

You're all desperate to kill the messenger, whoever they may be, and burn the message before trying to understand it.

If [email protected] was Kim, why didn't *she* have the guts to post it under her own name?

XTC (not Kim)

[Kim/JourneyToX]:

That wasn't, in fact, me. The poem was mine, the spoof wasn't.

Now think about this: do you honestly think I'd make Skinner have merely a cocktail wiener sized penis, even in spoof?

There you go then! <g>

Of course, I know all about how the spoof came about, and it's funny as hell.

Of course, I have my suspicions as to how this phony XTC came about, and it's not funny, it's sad.

I'd rather laugh than cry about any of this, because I don't think the opinion of Ordover, or others, merit my tears.

Isak Dinesen said the cure to anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea.

I'm not giving up any tears for anyone around here, unless they're happy tears.

I get a little seasick on the ocean.

So that leave sweat. I do have something I could be working on, don't I, Katrina?

::::looking around for the sharp implements and listening for the little goats:::::

[Kim/JourneyToX]:

>> I'm not trying to pass myself off as you--

Then create your own distinct identity. Or use your regular one.

Your selection of this name is anything but a coincidence or a tribute. It has already created confusion and I strongly suspect it was intended to hurt or mock.

If you have such contempt for me, you'd think you'd want to get a million miles away from my name. I'm sure "IHateJTX" is available from AOL for your use.

[GeoRed]:

Writing hilarious fanfic in the form of parody? This is a fanfiction newsgroup, after all.

> As I stated, I am not her, nor am I trying to be. [email protected] signed "J. Ordover," clearly an impersonation.

There you go. *Clearly*. Obviously. Parody. Which of these words do you not understand? And if you aren't trying to emulate Kim, why did you take a name so close to hers? You are clearly upset with MasterOrdover.....why are you doing the same exact thing except for making it very less obvious? You were attempting to deceive but got busted. MasterOrdover was very obviously writing a parody that NO ONE mistook as being John. Do you see the difference?

He/she wrote a very funny piece of fanfic that was clearly a parody. All you are doing is masquerading as someone else in support of JO. I don't think you are doing him any favors. If Kim and Dasha hadn't caught it right away, you may have gotten away with it for a while....especially with other newbies. I shudder to think what else you may have tried to post in her guise. Another question: lots of people disagreed with John, yet you chose Kim to impersonate. Why is that? Past grievance perhaps? Just curious.

[Michaela]:

>5) Please tell me in rational terms what you disagree with in any of this.

I, for one, already did. Mr. Ordover thinks (or appears to, to me, from what he's posted) that any writing activity not directly related to working with a potential publisher/editor is a waste of one's professional writing time and any dappled and darling dreams of being published.

*I* happen to believe that this is akin to saying that anyone hoping to become a professional web designer should no longer visit any web site not specifically related to graphic design and HTML coding because it's a waste of time and won't get you anywhere. I believe that to be a published writer, one must explore all aspects of writing, and not just the parts that might make you money someday. As with any craft in which one hopes to grow, you must experience as much of it as possible.

In other words, I think Mr. Ordover's all or nothing approach to publishing is unrealistic and not necessarily reflective of the entire publishing industry. Having heard from many publishing professionals who, in fact, have given me the opposite advice, this would appear to further validate my personal opinion. And, yes, I personally have found these professionals to be less condescending in their communication.

Is that rationale enough?

[JourneyToXTC]:

If this was hashed over *three or less days ago,* why are people still slamming Ordover and not letting this go? If you all made your point so effectively, why not move on? Why would someone spend time writing a parody of the man? Why would someone spend time writing a filk? The playground still looks occupied to me, even though this was hashed over *three or less days ago*.

(Now someone is gonna point a finger and say I'm just stirring it up and making it continue--this was still stirring long before I arrived.)

Kim has said she isn't [email protected]. Then who is? Why hasn't this person come forward? They apparently have the support of the entire newsgroup--save me. Come out, come out wherever you are and accept the roses that are falling at your feet.

XTC (stating for the record that I'm not Ordover, WriteBrother, or MasterOrdover. I'm just not *that* clever.)

[Hey-Nonny-Nonny Maus]:

> I wondered how she would like it. My guess is not much, but then she won't think about how Ordover feels about being mistreated. He wasn't welcome here--he isn't a regular, so he doesn't matter. This is what I'm getting from all of this.

<laughs heartily> Hon, I've never posted here in this newsgroup in my *LIFE* before five days ago. Don't believe me? -- Go to Deja and check messages for my name, then do a posting history. And although I have no particular proof that I've never posted here under another name, I heartily invite you to go back to Deja and read *EVERY* message I've ever posted here, and then all the responses. See if *anybody* here has treated me like they knew me - or with _ANYTHING_ but the utmost respect -- With the possible exception of John Ordover.

I am anything *BUT* a regular -- I only wandered in to ask about the titles of a couple of fanfic stories I fondly remembered. But I take care to be _polite_, _clear_, and to _LEARN THE NEWSGROUP BEFORE I SHOOT OFF MY MOUTH_ -- So I have with little or no exceptions throughout a 11-YEAR career on Usenet, GEnie, CIS, AOL, various BBS's, and a hearty career IRC'ing been _UNIVERSALLY_ welcomed. In my long experience, it's not a hard thing to learn. Except for those who _>*WON'T TRY*<_.

So, please, excuse me if I find your theory of "he isn't a regular, so he doesn't matter" _HEARTILY_ amusing.

If you prefer to command respect, think of it like a commercial survey to find out the preferences of your target audience - Try to find out _what_ commands respect first -- Before whining that no one does.

Or get used to people thinking you're a cheeseburger.

[snipped]

"Three or less days ago" is meant to be a short time -- Someone's memories, and their newsreaders, may be conclusively presumed with someone of competence to stretch back that far. Therefore, it is a point of netiquette that if many people made many points in a timeframe that their newsreaders should still have those messages current, it is considered not-terribly polite -- And forgive me, from the opinions of most persons I have known in my 'netting course, not terribly bright -- to ask for a reiteration of points that have been expressed within a newsgroup within, say, the past week or ten days. And the more people involved in a discussion (not to mention the shorter the time-frame), the more the not-terribly-polite factor rises.

Likewise, if someone has produced some form of stress with a single person, or a group of people's lives (like not listening, like ignoring points, trolling, impersonating people -- and I *DO* hope you are bright enough to see the difference between a parody in a newsgroup that is _there_ for that purpose, and deliberately choosing a false name almost exactly that of a regular poster -- etc.), the shorter the time frame, the more likely it is that people are still blowing off steam. I reiterate (and if you find my reiterations tedious, I propose that you could always *READ AND NOT IGNORE THEM THE FIRST TIME*) that the story, poem, etc., were the newsgroup's method of blowing off some steam on the subject of John Ordover. I ask, please, that you spare me the reiteration of *WHY* we might not have fallen at the feet in adoration of John Ordover, and please (as I have asked you before... starting to see a pattern, anyone?) read the second message in this thread -- One you probably *should* have read, as you replied to that message...

[snipped]

Sincerely, and with equally sincere hopes that she is not feeding a troll -- Especially if that Troll's name rhymes with "Con -- And Over",

[Kim/JourneyToX]:

Wait a second here.

Don't I remember that the last time that Ordover passed through these parts, that there was some CyberPunky person who showed up after him, like the man with the shovel and bucket following the elephants in the parade?

Anybody else recall some insane rantings from that person about 'stopping fanfic forever' and some real big support of Ordover?

Maybe this is Ordover's own little stalkerfan come to revisit us.

Let's not rule that out.

I think the choice of my name and the comments reveal something less random, more motivated by some personal animosity, but I could be wrong.

Actually, who cares? What an ass.

[JourneyToXTC]:

I'm not doing anyone's dirty work.

Ordover didn't need rescuing. I posted because I thought his point could be clarified by someone who didn't carry the stigma his name apparently does around here.

I was wrong to think it would help.

People have said he has no right bringing his opinions in here, as they don't apply (he's Trek, this isX-Files), etc. He came in because he saw his name somewhere and wanted to clarify something that someone said he'd said. (Oh what a tangled web.)

You attacked him, as did others.

A filk was written. A parody was written--using his real name no less.

I saw that as wrong and hateful. I spoke up.

[JourneyToX]:

Did I say that someone praised [email protected] for posting under a non-legit name? They praised the content, which was hateful, in my opinion. (The content was hateful; the praise only seemed to fan the flames.)

I don't need to question why they enjoyed it; they enjoyed it because it was a smack to Ordover, who presented a view that no one found kosher. The author attacked Ordover, "got the upper hand", and most everyone cheered. Another ogre ousted from the kingdom.

[Hey-Nonny-Nonny Maus]:

I hope [Ordover] does write a parody about us, and post it here -- That is the newsgroup's purpose. Or he is free to go to another newsgroup, and perform an action that is suited to the environment there. Or he is free to perform many real-world actions, including seeing a lawyer, if he so wishes. Or to suffer in silence. Or many other ways he might blow off steam -- including trying to figure out what he might have done WRONG about his approach, and fix it -- A blowing off of steam I heartily recommend.

I am concluding, sir (madam?), that you are a troll -- And that the main problem in my approach may very well be trying to present logical arguments to someone who, like that fabled whore, may be brought to culture, but not made to think.

If someone bothers to learn accepted Usenet "netiquette" before starting to post, they learn that the accepted rules for nomenclature and self-presentation are that while a "handle", or screen/posting name, is perfectly acceptable -- and, indeed, most people use one -- *UN*acceptable things include: Someone who posts under a first name/handle in a newsgroup, then posts under another without notifying publically in that newsgroup as to the change (a "sockpuppet", as I believe is the term you are fond of -- since you've been using it); or someone that deliberately uses a handle very similar to that of an established poster (not specifically named, but generally falls under the category of "troll").

You have been accused of the second -- And have admitted to it. Most people, Usenet-wide, find that unacceptable. I think if you change your Usenet name to something a bit more unique, that it would fit exactimundo on what you have been requested to do.

[John Ordover]:

Okay, to defuse a few things.

1) I appeciate the support of the creator of this thread, Writebro.

2) However, I don't think it's a good idea to use a screen name that can lead to your posts being confused with someone else on the board. It's not the same thing as chosing a name to be funny and post a parody. I'm sure we -all- know there are LOTS of other ways available to mock people you disagree with....:)

3) If I've been abrasive, I apologize, but I gotta say it's very hard to be constantly told that I look down on fan fic writers, that I think they are wasting their time, etc. etc. when in fact I have not and do not say or believe that. If you enjoy writing fan fiction then enjoy! I don't know how to say it more clearly than that.

4) There seems to be a notion here that fan fiction is the wave of the future, that it's a higher moral calling than regular publishing, that fan fiction writers are "true" writers writing "from the heart" without "walls between you and your audience." That might or might not be true but is not relevent if your concern is how to get paid for your writing now or as quickly as possible. And If that's not your concern, then why are you reading my posts, since that's all I talk about? :)

5) If you want to turn pro, the path I outlined is what I sincerely consider the fastest and easiest: practice what you intend to sell. Understand that even editors in the media-tie-in market are looking for those with professional credits. If you want to go into the -business- of being a writer -for a living-, you have to work the publishing system as it stands, and I'm happy to answer questions about how it works.

That's all for now.

John. Executive Editor, The Star Trek Novels, Pocket Books, www.startrekbooks.com

[Binah]:

As I am not an author, the Ordover discussion doesn't enflame me. However, I can see that JO comes off as offensive. For an editor, you'd think tone would be important...ah well.

It's a shame when your potential students can't receive the message because it looks and feels like the teacher is insulting the student.

It also doesn't help when the quality of the average ST paperback is awful. I used to read them like they were going out of style, but ever since STTNG novels started to appear, I've been less than impressed. One early STTNG book broke me of my ST novel habit. It was some 'Alice in Wonderland' theme piece of sh*t that I couldn't even finish. I may have read one DS9 book (ho-hum, forgettable), and I've never picked up a Voyager book.

Yet before then, I had already become weary of the restrictions that the producers put on the books. It's frustrating to read book after book and never see any character development. Though, that's not to say I haven't read an awful SW book.

The hardback ones tend to be decent (Imzadi, Sarek, etc.) often because we get character development--even if it is retroactively.

My favorites ST paperbacks are the older ones. Diane Duane and A.C. Crispin were stand-outs. The short story books from the 70's are fascinating in their boldness. I particularly liked a story called "The Procrustian Petard" (even though it's terribly sexist). I think it's in the same anthology as "Mindsifter", as someone mentioned.

If I were aspiring to be a profic author, I wouldn't try to be a genre author. I would think that would be too limiting. If I wanted to write about Kirk and Spock OR Mulder and Scully, I'd rather keep it in the fanfic realm where I could do with them as I pleased.

I understand that Ordover is saying to be a pro that you should give up fanfic completely and write your own universe. Sure, it makes sense in a harsh way. However I question the supposed 'goal' of being a pro ST or XF author. Why give up fanfic to write it professionally later under severe shackles? That doesn't seem worth it, unless you're just doing it for the paycheck then. Which may explain why those books tend to be unsatisfying.

[Kim/JourneyToX]:

Nobody can take you seriously until you quit using something so close to my name. It's a cheap stunt.

I'll say this one more time.

I have no use for John Ordover. Why don't you search Deja News for every post I've ever written to him and see how many questions I've posed him, and then go into the thread and see how they were answered? He has offered very little, mostly answers built on his assumptions and always delivered with his arrogance.

I don't actually disagree with some of what Ordover says. As I said elsewhere, all he says is mere common sense. Publishing industry, target market, original works, etc. - fine, sure, heard it before, great. So having heard it before, and heard it better, what use do I have for him?

The quality of books he creates do not impress me.

The quality and most of all, the delivery, of his advice does not impress me.

The quality of his professionalism and his personal demeanor does impress me - in the most negative way possible.

The quality of his defenders, those made out of knitted foot apparel, makes me laugh.

Go away, Gold Toe.

[Hey-Nonny-Nonny Maus]:

I (sincerely) do apologize -- I was not on the newsgroup when the story of which you speak went down, so I do not know any of the details about the story or the incident. Would you, or someone else, please fill in the missing details; or provide some information so that I may go looking for them? This is a serious, and *NOT* a sarcastic or facetious request -- I would feel more comfortable discussing my views on the current parody if I knew more about what I was contrasting it with.

I feel comfortable only with these aspects: I am not the person who wrote "The Bridges of Ordover County", nor do I know who wrote it. I made my best guess, and as it turned out I guessed wrong. To my eyes, the only aspect about the post that made it libelous and/or a personal attack was the listing of the author as "J. Ordover" with an address that could be construed as belonging to Mr. Ordover. I saw, and see, the rest of the story as mere parody - And if I had written it, I would have posted it, sans any identifying elements with the name "Ordover" on it. Which, although other people may not agree with me, would include leaving the title "Ordover County" and the identification "Master of all he Surveys" -- For I see those aspects, again, as mere parody.

I am not sure I honestly believe that almost anyone would believe that John Ordover was "J. Ordover". Whereas I think it likely that "Journeytoxtc" could easily be confused with "Journeytox", leading to much confusion and hurt to and from those involved in the confusion. I also believe that it was admitted to as a deliberate "let's see how she likes it" measure -- Which again leads me to believe that it is likely hurtful in intent.

Boy, I sure rambled on awhile for someone who was going to cut it short. <self-deprecating laugh, but a honest smile> Please forgive me, and feel free to respond back -- Including and especially if you disagree with me. Thanks for listening.

[Kim/JourneyToX]:

The screenname does not, as of this afternoon sometime, exist. I learned this when I wrote The Meat Sandwich or Hosiery a note and AOL said "no such screenname".

Therefore:

(1) It's been deleted by its creator.

(2) It's been deleted by AOL.

or

(3) It was faked and not from AOL.

[snipped]

I recommend Deja news for your edification. It shows no history of this XTC person before 24 hours ago.

www.deja.com.

Power search: author: [email protected]

AOL now reports this screenname does not exist.

I'm sorry, but this adds up to something far more than a coincidence, by any standard of logic. At a certain point, in bending over to be fair and avoid accusation, you just break your back.

[JourneyToXTC]: Deja doesn't log "x-no-archive: yes" posts, do they?
No they don't.
So you would have me believe you've been wandering around the net with this name for ever so long and happily no-archiving yourself, until 24 hours ago, when you stopped no-archiving?
There's a few problems with this argument.
(1) AOL said your screenname didn't exist yesterday. Today it does. Yesterday you hae nospam in your SN. Today you do not. Could be some glitch. Could be hocus pocus. Who knows?
(2) Evidently since it's at least now a real AOL screenname, screennames longer than 10 characters have only been allowed by AOL for perhaps 2 months.
(3) You yourself said that your name could be regarded as a parody. Parody finds its best audience in those who understand the person/book/TV show/etc. that is being parodied. So here's your parody audience - this forum. Where have you been all this time?
So I still add this up, egotistically I suppose, to anything but a coincidence.
I'll conclude thusly:
JourneyToX has been my email address and identity within the X-Files community for over a year now. It's my website address, my eBay ID, and the name I put on my fic.
I would like to ask you, respectfully and sincerely, to cease using JourneyToXTC within this community to avoid confusion of identity and bad feelings toward myself and yourself.
I can never step inside your skull and know your motivations for doing this, but I think they're fairly clear. All I can do is beg you to stop this.
If you have anything you want to say, any criticism of me, any scorn or rage or abuse you want to throw at me, any mockery, anything - I invite you to do it. I'll read it. I'll take it. Hell, maybe I deserve it. But it would be appropriate for you to use a name other than the one that is too close, not coincidentally, to mine.

Further Reading and Context

References

  1. ^ "shhhhh! When you mention his name, he has a way of just turning up." -- ASC, 2000
  2. ^ An example of other creative fannish spelling for the similar reasons are those for Will Shetterly.
  3. ^ This is a reference by Ordover to The Bridges of Ordover County.
  4. ^ "What was [email protected]" is a reference to The Bridges of Ordover County.
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