That slash vs gayfic debate

From Fanlore
Jump to navigation Jump to search
Meta
Title: That slash vs gayfic debate
Creator: pinkdormouse
Date(s): June 30, 2003
Medium: online
Fandom:
Topic: differences between gayfic and slash
External Links: on livejournal, archived link
Click here for related articles on Fanlore.

That slash vs gayfic debate is a 2003 meta by pinkdormouse on differences between gayfic and slash fic. It was posted on connotations livejournal, community for the Connotations slash con.

For context, see Timeline of Slash Meta.

Some Topics Discussed in the Essay and Comments

Essay

Spent the weekend thinking about tis and here's what I have so far, feel free to disagree or add to it.

Slash:

Focus is very heavily on one pair of characters, occasionally other same-sex pairings may have strong secondary role(s).

Unresolved Sexual Tension is a major feature of the story.

Relationship develops outside of, and generally remains independent of, any pre-existing queer community.

Characters do not necessarily identify as gay, bisexual, queer, etc.

Gayfic:

Wider worldview of how characters (with or without partners) experience life-events and how this relates to their sexuality.

Evolving Relationship Dynamics may be integrated into the main plot.

Sense of queer (or otherwise alternative) community in which the characters are or have been involved.

Some, if not all, characters have strong sense of sexual identity.

Additionally it has now been decreed that henceforth Poppy Z Brite shall be regarded as a writer of Original Slash.

Comments

executrix: Must disagree about the status of UST as a tentpole (ahem) for the Slash franchise--in fact I daresay the average B7 slashfic either resolves the ST quickly or that's never an issue.

It also makes a big difference where the story is set--there may not BE a community to identify with, whether because it hasn't developed, the hero lives on a remote planet, most of the possible community has been wiped out by the Authorities, character is fed-up with community biphobia, character is Republican and thinks community is a bunch of pinkos, character is pinko and thinks community is a bunch of Republicans, etc.

Also, the protagonists' lack of identification may be an important story point, whether the writer considers this good (the character is a Real Man!) or bad (the character is a pathetic victim of false consciousness).

manna: I'm stuck here, because what you've written under the slash and gayfic definitions apply about equally well to the slash stories I read. Maybe this says more about my reading habits than slash in general. I'm beginning to think that I maybe just don't read enough slash to come up with a really good definition. Argh!

One thing I think is that we have to be careful to compare equivalent genres. There's no point comparing PWP slash with a novel featuring a gay detective. Compare PWP with short gay porn, compare novel-length slash stories with novel length gayfic, etc. This hit me because of the phrase 'main plot' in the gayfic definition.

Maybe we need to start with a layout of the boundaries, along the lines of:

'Slash' covers fanfic stories written about romatic relationships between same-sex characters [who are not canonically homosexual]. Slash emcompases a a wide range of styles including introspective vignettes, PWPs, 'missing episodes', and pieces from short-story to novel-length. They may be stand-alone or linked in a series. The setting may remain as originally established, or can be AU or crossover.

Gayfic...[insert definition here].

pinkdormouse: I think that the biggest problem is that I tend to define gayfic as 'that which feels real to me' and slash as 'in which characters act unlike persons of my acquaintance' which is a pretty crap definition as far as the rest of the world is concerned.

In general I think I'm looking for stories that make up for the deficiency in GLBT characters in most media and what I'm finding is characters that for the most part bear no resemblance to what I'm hoping to find and in some cases don't match up to the canonical characters either.

And, of course I know quite few slash writers who openly state that they *don't* want their characters to match up to Real Gay People (TM) or Real Gay People's lives, which saddens me in a way.

Still not a helpful definition but I'll continue to try and come up with one.

pinkdormouse: It's a hard thing to put my finger on, although one aspect is the feeling that far too m[an]ny pairings are based around who the author wants to see together (either because of the 'two cute blokes' syndrome or as an attempt to fix what she feels is 'wrong' with canon) rather than a general investigation of which characters would work together and how that relationship would evolve over time.

But then I know certain people who can write vitually any pairing in a way that feels right to me, and others who don't even write pairings I believe in in any sort of way that works for me.

executrix: Well, quite a lot of slash is about *un*romantic relationships--the Avon/Vila I just posted to FC, f'rex. And I don't think it's a simple question to determine which characters are canonically gay.

Not only do we have to consider the historical context in which the characters are living, we have to consider the historical context of the media text. At some points it was entirely impermissible to have gay characters (leading, some would argue, to a rich variety of subtexts and a strong encouragement to resistant reading). At other times, it was OK to have sinister or ridiculous gay characters, but not heroic ones, or gay characters as local color but not central, or taking over the "getting killed 50 minutes in" slot from black characters.

Also, as Harry Benshoof and Rhoda Bernstein have persuasively shown, in horror movies "monster" and "queer" are as hard to separate out as "man" and "pig" at the end of Animal Farm.

In the Buffy context, for example, it would be difficult to argue that Willow/Tara or Willow/Kennedy are not canon, whereas Buffy/Faith is hard to characterize as other than AU. But are there Alt-Willow/Willow missing scenes? Ethan/Ripper or Ethan-Ripper, and come to think of it are bisexual characters "gay"? (I'd say so, but then my definition--"having or desiring to have repeated same-sex contacts as an adult, for pleasure" is a somewhat idiosyncratic one.)

executrix: One of the most important things that makes writing slash or gayfic interesting to writers (and, we like to hope, to readers) is in fact some spark of chemistry between the characters who are slashed. I don't think it would be a good commercial move for the Smallville TPTB to make Clark/Lex a canon pairing, but it's not completely IMPOSSIBLE, whereas The Man from UNCLE could NOT have been made as a show denotationally about a gay couple. So when we interpret the text, we have to be aware of the constraints under which it was made, and what social codes can be used to send messages that are subliminally visible, or visible only to a coterie.

manna: However, the problem with that is the incredible subjectivity involved, which leads some people to see blazing pyres of chemistry where other people don't even see a damp spark. Take Blake/Avon as a case in point. I think you could find just about every view point on the scale from people who would swear that they're at it like rabbits to people who think the whole idea that they're even faintly attracted to each other is ludicrous.

Hence interpreting subtle signals, intentional or unintentional, is occasionally interesting but makes a very bad basis for system for deciding whether a fanfic pairing should or shouldn't be classified as non-canonical.

executrix: But really, how can there be any media fiction without interpretation of signals? If we are to say that the information provided by canon is not only infallible but complete, then the only possible fan product is an Episode Guide.

Admittedly one important impulse for writing a pairing (slash or het) is thinking that they'd make a lurvely couple, but another important impulse is believing that there is at least a meaningful reading of canon that provides evidence (looks, body language, comparative speed of rushing off to rescue, etc.) It's often been observed that sn important part of the New Souls for the Faith process is showing tapes and stopping them to say "Look where he's...." or "See, it proves that..."

glossing: Since I'm coming to this topic quite late, I had/have a couple preliminary questions. Are these characteristics derived empirically or theoretically? That is, are we trying to characterize what's out there and already existing, or what we would like to see in both genres?

Then I read Gina's comment: I tend to define gayfic as 'that which feels real to me' and slash as 'in which characters act unlike persons of my acquaintance', so things are a bit more clear. Or more complicated; I'm not sure.

Many of the characteristics seem to boil down to the degree of stable identity-formation and -expression. So slash is to be distinguished from gayfic based mainly on the characters' identification practices, and, by extension, to these identities' links to larger communities. And then this degree of gay identity gets linked to degrees of textual realism.

Hmm.

There is 'gayfic' out there that doesn't fit either set of definitions -- I'm thinking of O'Neill's At Swim, Two Boys and Argiri's The God in Flight -- and it's usually historical. Even The Well of Loneliness doesn't quite fit, and I think this reveals how contemporary our notions of what constitute a 'gay' identity are. If I pursue this much further, I'm going to end up in Gore Vidal land, though, where sexuality doesn't exist, only sexual acts.

Come to think on it, however, that might be a useful rubric. Slash might be identified as texts with queer* sexual acts but no sexual identity-formation, while gayfic does pursue the vector of an identity's formation.

Just some random thoughts.

* sorry; can't seem to help using queer...

manna: Since I'm coming to this topic quite late, I had/have a couple preliminary questions. Are these characteristics derived empirically or theoretically? That is, are we trying to characterize what's out there and already existing, or what we would like to see in both genres?

I would like to characterise what's out there. Or at least make some wild generalisations about the majority of it, because there is a hell of a lot of slash out there. (However, con panels being what they are, we'll probably end up with a discussion of squirrel migration patterns.)

My interest really came from considering the existence of original slash as a genre, and whether it does in fact differ from 'just writing about gay people'. I have a feeling that it does, and that there is such a things as a definable slash style which can carry over to original fiction, even if that in practise that means there are several styles, only some of which make decent original fic. But it's only a feeling and I'd really like to hear other people's opinions, espeically people who have read more widely than me.

I have the bias that when I think about slash I automatically consider only those stories I've read, which tends to cluster in those stories I like. I don't finish stories I don't like, so I probably have a terribly skewed view of slash as a whole.

Come to think on it, however, that might be a useful rubric. Slash might be identified as texts with queer* sexual acts but no sexual identity-formation, while gayfic does pursue the vector of an identity's formation.

I think the problem with this definition is that it excludes lots of stories which *are* blatantly slash, in the technical term of 'stories featuring a romantic..etc'. There are plenty of slash stories around where identity plays a stong part in the plot. OTOH, if it *is* true that in a majority of slash sexual identity formation isn't an issue, and in most original gayfic it is, then maybe it is a useful marker.

I definitely agree that the definition as it stands seems to focus quite narrowly on modern standards, which is a problem given that a lot of slash comes from SF, fantasy or other non-modern worlds or non-standard societies.

cathexys: I definitely agree that the definition as it stands seems to focus quite narrowly on modern standards, which is a problem given that a lot of slash comes from SF, fantasy or other non-modern worlds or non-standard societies.

but isn't that in even further support of the queer identity vs queer acts definition? considering that identity is fairly one dimensionally defined by object choice, slash seems to explore (at its best) more various forms of interactions, identifications, and fantasies...both on account of the characters and the writer/reader...

fides: Now I don't think I have read any gayfic, or if I have I didn't know I was reading it (not because I have avoided it but I didn't know it existed) so anything I say might be totally wrong because I don't really know what the term 'gayfic' is actually applied to.

That being said I think I write original slash rather than writing gayfic and not knowing it. This is mostly because I am 'slashing' the characters I created beyond the plot/timeline/canon I created for them. When I actually finish writing the main story that will be a very long fic which happens to have some characters who are bi/gay so I have no idea what that counts as. But the short 'what-if' stories I have spun off from the characters are written in exactly the same way as if I was writing a slash story about someonelses characters.

Maybe some of the difference comes down to focus. Slash seems to me to be very much focused on the lead characters/pairing. When there is sexual-identity formation it is often character self exploration/realisation related directly to how one character feels about another character rather than how that character feels in general. When the 'gay community' is mentioned it is almost constructed to be a seperate entity, which the character may feel like they belong to or feel estranged from, but is not part of/related to the characters sexual identity. Not that there aren't fics that deal with issues like social views/lifestyle/homophobia/etc but even those are often focused very much on how they directly relate to the character and not how the character fits into the society (if that makes any sense).

A lot of that is probably because most slash is written about characters that canonically are (probably supposed to be) 'straight'.

What about: Slash might be identified as texts with queer sexual acts but no sexual *or group* identity-formation, while gayfic does pursue the vector of an identity's formation.

I have just come to the conclusion I am totally blathering but I might as well post this anyway since I have got this far.

P.S.

I was under the impression that 'queer' when used in a none perjorative sense (ie not yelled down the street at 3am) had been well and truely 'reclaimed' to the point where it is frequently used in academic contexts (espec. history, media and gender studies). But then I went to a convention in the US and one of the audience got *really* offended by it's use in the talks (and while I don't know for definate, I am fairly sure 2/3 people on the panel were gay). They seemed just as surprised by this guys outburst so now I am just confused.

manna: Slash might be identified as texts with queer sexual acts but no sexual *or group* identity-formation, while gayfic does pursue the vector of an identity's formation.

Interesting, but maybe needs some expansion. How well does gay porn fit into this definition? A common comment I've heard from slash writers is that they *don't* enjoy gay porn, so a definition that puts them together is probably not useful. Again, I don't read enough to make a firm decision.

Hmm. Is there some core of 'slashness' that runs through the whole spectrum of slash, from PWPs to novels? Or is it all just too disparate?

When the 'gay community' is mentioned it is almost constructed to be a seperate entity, which the character may feel like they belong to or feel estranged from, but is not part of/related to the characters sexual identity.

For sure, 'the gay community' doesn't feature very much in the slash I've read. Come to think of it, it doesn't feature very much in my original fic, as there isn't really one in the Administation. Which I suppose pushes the Administration back towards being slash. Any comment on that aspect, Gina?

fides: I would have thought the characters in gay porn had both a very defined sexual identity and group identity ie they know who they are, what they like and they know where to get lots of sex. O.K. that might be 'group formation' rather than 'group identity formation', but they are presumably in a position to interact with other people who want the same thing they do. I can't see porn really going in for the OTW thing so I am guessing they will be part of some group. But I don't think I have read/watched any gay porn so I can't really comment and I may have totally maligned it.

The impression I always got was that many slash people weren't so keen on gay porn because it isn't as concerned with the emotional/spiritual connection that slash often premotes. Maybe that if another thing that defines slash. Hot and sweaty sex is good but it always tends towards the deep and meaningful. Even PWP tend to have the emotional attachment well in place before the physical. There are obviously slash fics that are exceptions to that statement and for all I know that (very female?) dwelling on the emotional aspects of sex could be present in gayfic and/or gay porn so I will cede the floor to someone who has a better idea what they are talking about.

NB. I have been assuming sexual acts to include thought/feelings (brain being most important organ in sex and all that) but maybe that part of our working definition should be expanded to make that clearer since you can easily have a slash story where nothing acually happens beyond wishful thinking - or are we not counting UST fics under our definition of slash.

pinkdormouse: I think that I'll go back to one of the things that I think I mentioned Child Substitute saying a while back: slash is about the pairing, gayfic is about gayness. In some ways it's a pity he's not online these days... Queer readings of any particuar work can focus on one or both, depending on who is doing the reading.

It also sort of begs the question about where one or two technically gen WIPs of mine fit in to the grand scheme of things: blatantly non-het characters, no sex, a couple of very understated m/f pairings in the background and lots of big metaphors about finding out one's role in life.

executrix: To further complicate the situation, perhaps the category of "original slash" is meaningful because it defines stories not so much by their content as by their mode of reaching an audience--i.e., the intended viewership are self-identified slashreaders rather than self-identified gay people interested in fiction, or fiction readers who are at least accepting or more about fiction that deals with gay people.

manna: That's certainly part of why I call my stuff original slash. It's a label saying 'if you like my slash, you might like this' or, more broadly, 'if you like slash, you might like this'. I tend to look at genre (like warnings/labels/spoilers) as a way to help the readers find what they want.

fides: Which raises the possibility that part of the differentiation should be who the fic was written by, who it was written for and the reasons behind the writing.

It could be that you get very similar stories and one is slash because it was written by a slash writter, intended for a slash audience and written for whatever-the-reason-is we write slash (different debate ;-)) whereas the other is gayfic because it is written for a different (although possibly overlapping) intended audience by someone who identifies themselves as a gayfic writer for (again) whatever reason.

Is the definitions something that are imposed from the outside by the reader or based on the self-identity of the writer, I am a slash author therefore I write slash etc.

phantomas: My take:

Slash fiction - media (TV, Film, Book) characters canonically represented as het (they go out on dates and such) but in slash fiction their relationship with another character of the same sex is interpreted/explored sexually. (originally m/m only, IIRC)

Gay fiction - original characters already established in the media source as attracted to their own sex. They might act on it or not, they might discover it as the story unfolds, etc.

QaF(Uk-US) is the best example to analyse, exactly because it thread on a very fine line. The Source is media (not original) but the characters are gay in canon. I'd say that QaF manages to be brilliantly *queer* (in the academic sense the term is habitually used).

Retrieved from "https://fanlore.org/w/index.php?title=That_slash_vs_gayfic_debate&oldid=1641271"