Talk:Tentacles

Naming

This article seems to be about tentacles in general, so perhaps the article should be moved to a more medium-inclusive name for anime, manga, and fanart, not just for fic. Perhaps "tentacles", or "tentacle kink"? -- Kylara 16:31, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Then I'd be in favor of Tentacle Kink, however maybe we ought to think about consistency in naming, because Rapefic, Curtainfic and a ton of other Story Tropes (slavefic, deathfic...) for example have fic in their title too, even though there's certainly art for a domesticity kink as well as for rape, but most pertinently maybe Wingfic which has a lot of art content, yet is not called Wing Kink or Wings, probably because that is just not common fannish usage.--RatCreature 16:44, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

To me this article seems to be about tentaclefic specifically and all the examples are tentaclefic. I don't think it should be moved. If there is a need for a more general tentacle page to say something about tentacle rape in animes or whatever, the existence of a page about tentaclefic doesn't preclude that. --Doro 16:50, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Could maybe the attn template be removed until there is some consensus about moving or not? I'm not completely against moving, and I think that separating tentaclefic from more general talk about tentacles in fandom not really necessary at this point, e.g. if someone wanted to talk about tentacle fanart that would fit well here IMO, even summaries/links to fan discussion about canon tentacle kink and the reception in fandom (I remember discussion about comic covers and sexism, no clue about anime fandoms though), because I think a further splitowould only make sense if this became overlong. But I would prefer then the name space issues to be tackled comprehensively like I mentioned above.

I had created this as "tentaclefic" mostly because that was my first thought to name the trope. Like I pointed out above, some tropes and kinks are most commonly thought of as such-and-such-fic. Much of media fandom simply is fanfic centric, even if some genres produce both written and visual fanworks, so that's the most likely place people will look stuff like for wing-fanworks, i.e. wingfic even if there is also wingart. Meanwhile I find the gardener template quite intrusive to just let it stay there until this discussion is resolved.--RatCreature 19:18, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the template should be removed because although there was the suggestion to move the page, there is no consensus to do so. And I agree with your reasoning regarding the "such-and-such-fic" terminology. Most of these things are fic specific glossary terms. Even the wingart examples on the wingfic page are there as illustrations for wingfic stories or are discussed as something that possibly worked as a prompt for writing wingfic. Right now the tentaclefic article seems to be correctly named and I think we should stick to the "fic" name for consistency and glossary term reasons. --Doro 19:38, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, I can't say I see any particular need for consistency when it comes to trope naming in general, it's not like we can't redirect. Also if we must be consistent I'm decidedly *not* in favour of consistently privileging fic over other types of fanworks.--MegR 19:48, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not thrilled with privileging fic, but I like consistency. However I think also prevalence and also just available options of how sensible something sounds should be taken into account. To some extent article naming is just descriptivist. I mean, we can't just declare into existence the term "death" as general genre term to include not just death fic but art and vids showing a character dying, just because the trope articles De-Aging and Soulbond work well enough like that. Incidentally Death Kink is not an option either even though it might work with tentacles. I think many tropes work well without any addition because it is clear that it can only refer to a fiction/fanwork trope. But for example a Disability page would not be assumed to refer to a fiction thing primarily, because disability in fandom is not just fictional. Unlike Animal Transformation or some such as stuff, disability in fandom (issues like accessibility of fanworks and to conventions, disability activism in fandom etc) deserve articles also, which is why there is Disability Fic as title for the trope. So as much as I like consistency, I agree that there can't be a single naming scheme fittng for every fanwork trope.--RatCreature 20:13, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

If prevalence is being applied, which I agree should be taken into account for naming articles, then the article should probably be renamed "tentacle rape" which is the most prevalent term for this kink. It is immensely more prevalent than "tentaclefic."

I find privileging fic over other fanworks to be a problem on Fanlore and I would like to see it undone, not upheld. Consistency would mean upholding it here. Perhaps in some fandoms "some tropes and kinks are most commonly thought of as such-and-such-fic," but from my experience that doesn't apply to anime/manga fandoms at all. Anime/manga fandom has a high rate of fanart, doujinshi, and webcomics, and it does not generally use fic-centric terms for visual art. So in regards to sensibility, I think using medium-neutral terms (not fic-centric ones) would be best for a place like Fanlore.

In regards to the idea that there could be a separate article for other fanworks on tentacles because this one is fic-centric, this article does not seem fic-centric to me. It provides a general definition which is not specific to any type of fanwork, and it addresses a visual canon of an SGA episode. Synonyms list "tentacle porn" and "tentacle rape," which are both named for visual mediums from Japanese hentai. It seems as though the article is set up to address tentacles in general and then information and examples of fic were added by those who knew about the fic aspects of fandom, which is fine, that's how articles get built. As it is, I don't yet see a reason for fic to be separated from a larger article.

-- Kylara 22:03, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I like using neutral terms and am not against renaming tentaclefic, though I would dislike tentacle rape because that seems to me equally too specific, only along a different axis, as it may not exclude visual art, but many of the examples on the page now are not non-con at all and would have to go elsewhere was this limited to tentacle rape in the the "molested by some tentacle" sense. Maybe going with just "Tentacles" would be best after all. My main reason against the urgency with the attn gardeners template and the moving right now sense was that I'd really like to address this across the board with the tropes, where possible, and fix those at the same time. For some I see no easy fix, like I said above (like deathfic), but at the very least wingfic should be renamed if tentaclefic is as both have plenty fanart. And I'd like some brainstorming for the other tropes to see which would maybe be better served by non-medium rephrasing. For example I think "apocafic" could do with a renaming too, because there is definitely apocalyptic and postapocalyptic fanart as a genre--RatCreature 23:07, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Ah ah, I see now. I agree that some other articles should probably to be renamed as well to include mediums besides fic. I haven't thought much about other tropes specifically, except maybe for rapefic. I don't really have any naming rules in mind or anything, I'd just like to see terms be inclusive to other mediums. I'm also not against descriptive article names, such as Rape in fanworks to replace "rapefic", if there isn't an obvious substitution to use.

Deathfic is not a complicated one for me since I commonly see Character Death instead, which is used for both fic and art.

A lot of these terms I haven't seen before, though their concepts aren't new to me at all. Apocafic → Apocalyptic AU. Or Apocalyptic fanworks or just Apocalyptic, to allow articles to include fanworks where an apocalyptic setting could be a canon future, I suppose. Wingfic → Wing AU or Wings? I've seen tons of AU fanart with characters with angel wings but I've never seen them called wingfic, they just use descriptions like "they have angel wings!", so "wings" or "wing AU" seem accurate enough to me.

I'm not sure how specific some of these tropes (listed at Story Tropes) are supposed to be. I came across Teamfic and I'm not sure if that's supposed to be an SG1-specific term or a general concept. If it's fandom-specific, then perhaps it should remain as it is, or perhaps it should still be included in a more general article. Since it potentially impacts another fandom, I don't want to be throwing weight around on it. Then there are also fic-specific names such as badfic which should remain as it. So I don't want to suggest any overall rules or anything for all trope names.

Back to this article's name, I would prefer Tentacles as well.

-- Kylara 08:38, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Some tropes are definitely fandom or fic specific. Your point about deathfic is valid, and just hadn't occurred to me, I guess because I think of "character death" as the warning label for the genre not the genre itself, but it could work well enough, though I think it may have more issues than naming this Tentacles because I'm not sure showing character death in fanart has same status as a fanwork genre as it has in fic. I'd be okay with moving this to "Tentacles", even without tackling all others, if the more genral problem is kept in mind. Maybe what you mentioned, about the "fic-centrism" of articles that actually aren't inherently fic-specific, because many contributers come from fic-centric fandoms, could be raised in the fanlore discussion comm, so that there will be more awareness for future article creation, and we could get some broader input on which maybe to move, which not to move and opinions without hanging it up just on the tentacle. But I think the problem that fanlore isn't growing as well and as diversely as it could is exacerbated by this trend of which the article names are a symptom. Maybe there we could brainstorm strategies how to be more mindful to leave more room for non-fic stuff even if you are thinking of fic first because your fandoms are fic-centric like most of mine are, and can't really add anything about the other stuff yourself, so that new and different people don't get the first impression that fanlore is not meant to be expandable in their direction.--RatCreature 10:25, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

I've taken up your suggestion and posted to the Fanlore community. You're bringing up a lot of good points that probably need a lot more expansion and input, and I welcome shifting the core of this discussion and strategizing to Dreamwidth. -- Kylara 09:38, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

consensus?

It looks like everyone wants the page to be renamed to be more inclusive. Should it be renamed to Tentacles (or perhaps Tentacle Porn)? We can also add the glossary category to redirects so that related terms that wouldn't otherwise get a separate article will show up in the glossary: Tentaclefic, Tentacle Monster, ...?

OR Tentacles in Fanworks, to match Animals in Fanworks?--æthel 17:00, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

I think Tentacles is the most neutral. While the page is primarily about tentacles in fanworks, it's also about a general fetish and to some extent fandom of professional tentacle porn. ("Tentacle porn" doesn't strike me as a good choice because it tends to imply entire hentai anime about tentacles rather than the presence of tentacles in one part of a fanfic or something... IMO anyway.) Franzeska 17:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

I am in favor of Tentacles as well. -- Kylara 20:01, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

And I moved it to Tentacles.--æthel 04:57, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Influence of Japanese Tentacle Porn

For what it's worth, despite being the author of one of the Western Mediafandom fic examples currently on the page, I definitely see tentacles/tentacle kink/whatever we want to call it as being directly inherited from hentai. (Astolat's story is even named, in Japanese, after a specific piece of commercial hentai despite also being for Merlin.) Whatever happens with naming of other articles, this topic is definitely not something I associate only, or even primarily, with fic. I don't know about LotR or SGA, but I had the distinct impression all that giant squid fic in HP fandom was due to the large number of anime/manga fans in the fandom. Franzeska 14:12, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Also should namecheck the mother of all tentacleporn, The Dream of the Fisherman's Wife by Hokusai, --Betty 18:53, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Why? I mean, has it any direct relevance to tentacle fanworks, besides being a classic non fandom example? I mean, we don't name check famous pro examples for other genres, just because they are famous pro examples.--RatCreature 19:02, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Urotsukidouji and Western pulp crap like Galaxy of Terror are a much more direct influence on this type of fanfic/art/etc. Franzeska 02:51, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Censorship & Tentacle Porn Popularity

NSFW IMAGE ALERT! A thread over at weeping cock suggests that "The entire Tentacle porn genre became popular as it was a convenient way to get around said censorship laws." Can anyone who knows more about the matter confirm? --Anenko 20:24, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that sounds accurate to me. Japan came up with a few censorship laws in the 90s, prohibiting the full exposure of genitalia or some such. One of the ways to get around this was to use the tentacle monster in anime; it was okay with censors since they weren't penises penetrating every orifice of the female victim, they were tentacles. So quite a bit of tentacle anime porn arose in the '90s to circumvent censorship laws. The censorship continues today, which has led to a number of jokes about "invisible penises" (where a penis is simply removed from a drawing so it's invisible; one of the jokes can be seen on the Shonen Hump page regarding the circle name). When hentai anime is exported the censorship is sometimes removed, so licensed hentai isn't always censored. Censorship is prevalent in manga as either pixelation or a tiny little black bar which doesn't really cover anything. Doujinshi isn't always censored because it's published by the fans and so it doesn't need to pass censors. And the infamy of the tentacle monster lives on. -- Kylara 20:43, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Do you want to add that info to the anime & manga section of the article? The section is very skimpy, and this information is interesting. --Anenko 00:04, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Sure, I added a section on the Tentacle Monster and how it was pushed to prevalence by censorship. I have more plans for re-organizing this article and integrating more anime/manga and non-fic fanworks, but I probably won't get to them until next weekend. -- Kylara 07:08, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Well... I've seen that explanation a lot in fandom, and it's certainly one factor. Anime/manga nerds who are more into the dark, arty, look at us we don't like kiddy stuff side of things usually describe early tentacle porn as being a sort of Nature in Revolt thing rather than an attempt to get around the censors. That's a common theme in Japanese pop culture anyway even outside of porn--look at the enduring popularity of Godzilla. The first tentacle porn (Urotsukidouji) is very fixated on monstrous pregnancy a la Rosemary's Baby and includes very little explicit penetration by tentacles. Franzeska 20:01, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

just to not loose the link

Once we expand into non-fic, I just came across a cool Star Trek tentacle porn sculpture: http://lymanalpha.livejournal.com/4214.html#cutid1 --RatCreature 16:59, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Organization

I'm not entirely comfortable dividing examples of fanworks into "anime and manga" and "media fandom." We don't section off anime and manga fandoms on the other trope pages; is there something special about tentacles that makes it necessary to do so here? I don't want the page to give off a "lol, those pervy Japanese and their tentacles" vibe (and considering how bad the OTW's track record is with many anime and manga fans, it is something that I'd worry about).

Also, the page is going to look very clunky once we get more animanga examples, especially since there are already so many subdivisions by type of tentacle. Maybe if we differentiated between tentacles in fic, art, and doujinshi instead? --Anenko 16:07, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Plus there's nowhere to put things that aren't either media or anime fandom. -MegR 16:16, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, the Kpop fic is listed under "media fandom," which isn't the best fit. --Anenko 16:39, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. I think I added that to try to get this page to not be all SGA all the time, but it could really stand to be reorganized into "canon" examples, where SGA would be minor and tentacle porn would be major, and fanworks examples, which needn't be only fic or even fic and art. There are absolutely tentacle vids too, among other things. I'm not convinced that the current divide between types of tentacles is the best way to describe the flavors of this trope. Or, at least, I'm not convinced this is how the examples should be listed. And it's still too SGA-heavy. That fandom had more tentacles than the average US tv show fandom of its same era, but it was a drop in the bucket compared to plenty of other fandoms that weren't for US tv shows back then, and it's not unusual compared to fandoms now. The SGA examples can stay, but they should be offset by something else. Franzeska (talk) 06:51, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

non-sexual tentacles

The vast majority of this page is about tentacles in fanworks with a sexual focus/element (which admittedly is many/most of them). But I think the page should either be named to reflect this (not my first choice), or that be revised to include more about tentacles in fanworks that are not sexual. Like scary monsters, or the whole Sime~Gen "transfer" vampire-y thing, or non-human creatures that simply have tentacles for non-sexual reasons. I added a small bit at the top of the page about "gen" fanworks, but I think it needs more, and a defter hand than I. --MPH 22:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

This was also an issue with the Doppelganger page. I'll take a deep-dive later, but a lot of issues with pages like this is poor structure and an erotic writing tone, which from a quick glance, seems to also be on this page. Pinky G Rocket (talk) 02:22, 13 April 2024 (UTC)