The ASCEM community

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Title: the ASCEM community
Creator: Emily Salzfass, and commenters at ASCEM
Date(s): April 1, 1998
Medium: online
Fandom: Star Trek: TOS, Star Trek: TNG, Star Trek: VOY, Star Trek: DS9
Topic:
External Links: post and comments are here
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the ASCEM community was a post by Emily Salzfass in 1998 to alt.startrek.creative.erotica.moderated.

Topics Discussed

The Post

In the process of trying to figure out the nature of this online fan community, I've noticed that a lot of people are taking issue with the "cliquey" nature of ASCEM. Note:

One person who responded to my query said:

>ASCEML is very cliquey. If you're not in the 'inner circle', you basically get ignored. [...] Anyway, the point is, unless you post a really, really, really great story, or ask for help with something, OR start an argument (which is a bit childish, but then what's the point of being grown-up if you can't be childish sometimes?) then nobody really gives a toss.

And another person said:

>Some of these people seem to have known each other for years, and for newcomers, well, it's a little of the old 'new kid on the playground' feeling. That said, I *do* get good feedback on my stories... but I don't often get into the threads that are started up. Observing them, I notice that the same people keep writing in them, and outsiders tend to be ignored a little. It's like any group, anywhere - there is always an inner clique.

And, honestly, I can see it. I think we all can. So the academic in me says, okay, another factor for the old analysis: online communities have cliques and "cool kids" just like RL communities. Interesting. But the fan in me, the fanfic writer in me, the new-kid-in-town in me *does* feel a little left out.

So in my academic nature, I'm trying to figure out why this social dynamic comes to be, here, and I figured I could turn to you for help. From where I'm sitting, it looks like most of the "inner clique" kids are TOS writers, often slash writers, more specifically K/S writers. Could this be because K/S is the original slash, the genesis of fanfic? Do you think that has something to do with offering a K/S writer more validity, somehow, than a P/C writer, for example, or a J/J writer?

Because there's obviously "cool" fanfic. (I'm gonna just be a big jerk here and start stereotyping, go out on a limb and see what I can make of this. I am extrapolating based on nothing but my own observations, and I really, really, REALLY don't mean to be offending anyone. I'm just thinking aloud.)

1. K/S is automatically "cool." There's something authentic about it; when I see it in a subject line I think "this person has been around; this person knows what's up." And even, "this person's cooler than I am." 2. G/B is new-wave-cool...I would suspect (SUSPECT) that old K/S fans have found some fun in writing G/B, and G/B tends to be consistently good, hot erotica, smartly written...when I see G/B in the subject line, I know that that author is probably confident in him/herself, and his/her place in the fanfic community. G/B is something to be proud of.

2. G/B is new-wave-cool...I would suspect (SUSPECT) that old K/S fans have found some fun in writing G/B, and G/B tends to be consistently good, hot erotica, smartly written...when I see G/B in the subject line, I know that that author is probably confident in him/herself, and his/her place in the fanfic community. G/B is something to be proud of.

3. O/K, P/C and P/T each have their homes in their individual communities, splinter groups from ASCEM that are solid and respectable in their own rights, while not having the power that K/S has to actually define the *shape* of ASCEM as a whole. A P/C writer, to me, looks like a representative of BONC (or some other subgroup), visiting ASCEM and offering us their wares, while K/S writers seem to *be* ASCEM, defining its social shape. But these pairings are also respectable, if not as "hip" as K/S or G/B because they're het.

4. K/Du and P/Q seem to be the most "literary" of pairings, often attracting the best writers, and kind of mysterious in their either-you-got-it-or-you-don't semi-canon subtext. People tend to either buy these pairings or really be against them (not to rekindle the Deanna/Alara thread), but they are also respectable, in their mystique and separateness. Not I-belong-to-a-splinter-group separateness, like the ones above, but rather I'm-taking-subtext-in-canon-and-flying-with-it separateness. Like G/B, I guess, but G/B seems to me to be following the K/S tradition in a way that these pairings don't.

5. J/C *shouldn't* be any different from #3 above, but somehow (maybe due to TS/C?) it is. J/C is canon-derived, just as the pairings in #3 are, but its writers seem to be a different breed from those above (which is not to say that the *authors* don't overlap, but they put on different hats to write them). J/C's just sorta there -- never really talked about (except TS/C), and never really bothering anyone. I'm not sure why it's different (I would say because it's a younger medium, but it's no younger than P/T, really...), but it feels like it is.

6. Other TNG pairings, IMO, are automatically pegged as somehow not as valid. I don't know what it is about TNG, but there's something not subversive enough about that series, too simple, too clean and shiny to really interest ASCEM, even if the fanfic is excellent. When I see TNG pairings, I have an automatic bias suggesting that they're "uncool," due to something I've picked up somewhere in the ASCEM community, though I don't know where this feeling comes from.

7. Other VOY pairings seem young, to me, sorta new-school, but I suspect that "cool kids" from K/S and other TOS fic have moved here, and I'm waiting to see what happens. I feel like the community hasn't really pegged VOY pairings yet, and we're waiting to see what arises. Some good stuff has emerged, and it's pretty clear that folks out there "want to read more Seven fic!", so there's hope for VOY yet. But it will take work for a VOY writer to achieve a place in ASCEM coolsville, even so.

8. Other DS9 pairings (J/J, W/D, etc) don't seem to get much limelight, though the dark-and-subversive nature of that particular series would seem to suggest the opposite. Still -- and perhaps it's because there's not much fic here, proportionally -- this fic's nothing to write home about, and nothing to automatically make the author "cool."

9. Any TOS pairing is cool. Anything TOS related is cool. Anyone who's ever written TOS can successfully move into other genres (G/B or various VOY [P/T/K?] slash or whatever) and still be cool. Again, I feel like this is because TOS was the original series, and K/S the original slash, but even today, when VOY fic seems to dominate, this is still the case.

I know that this sounds really clinical and probably to many of you ridiculous, but I'm trying to figure out the nature of this community. Delete this message if it offends you; I'm not interfering with your lives, and I'm not trying to start a war. If you want to say "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??!!!", please assume that I already know that, and don't bother drawing this out more painfully than it needs to be. But if you want to say "what the fuck are you talking about? *Here's* why some kids on ASCEM are cooler than others!", please do, because I want to know. And, especially, if you want to say "I agree with some of what you've written, let's figure this out," then, by all means, LET'S FIGURE THIS OUT.

Because obviously some kids here are cooler than others, on this ASCEM playground. And it's not just tenure (though that's a big part of it).

Coming out of the closet a little -- I've written O/K, various VOY slash and general fic, and I'm currently dabbling in K/Du (though my talents are nowhere near as good as the rest of that community!), so I run the gamut here, as I'm sure many do. But even though I've been aboard for four months, and even though I've met a ton of folks I consider friends, and even though I *like* everyone here and I feel like everyone likes *me* and has been nothing but nice to me (well...maybe after this post, that will change...<g>), I'm not a cool kid. And I don't see myself becoming one. I'd like to be...

Maybe, at the very least, this post will simply be a teeny bit enlightening. Maybe it will just disappear.

Or maybe, maybe, we can figure out what the deal is.

Feeling very much like I've just hammered the last nail into my own grave, Emily

Excerpts from the Comments

[Ruth Gifford]: >>And, honestly, I can see it. I think we all can. So the academic in me says, okay, another factor for the old analysis: online communities have cliques and "cool kids" just like RL communities. Interesting. But the fan in me, the fanfic writer in me, the new-kid-in-town in me *does* feel a little left out.

OK. I have to admit that I have this automatic instinctive urge to say, "that's not true!" And I have to stifle that urge, because, intellectually, I realize that there is *some* validity to the complaint.

Where am I coming from here? I'm an extrovert, a trait I use to hide a number of insecurities. I wasn't always in the "in crowd" and so I hate to think that I'm responsible for creating that atmosphere. And I'll be honest, if a bit egotistical; I do help create the atmosphere on ASCEM(L). I'm not the only person who does, and it's *not* my ng by a long shot. But I have a lot to say, I like to talk about everything, I'm probably the most vocal ng administrator (which may change depending on how the job thing goes) and I also write fanfic, which gives me a fairly high profile. I know this sounds like I'm saying "look at me!" but, honestly, I'm still surprised that people are interested in what I have to say.

Historical Note; My predecessor as FAQ Maintainer and General Busybody was Christine Faltz, who really *was* a high profile (or BHF--Big Name Fan) to the point that she was occasionally mentioned in connection with ASFS in the "legitimate press" and places like "The Trekker's Guide to the 'Net." She had opinions on everything and didn't hesitate to share them.

Now, when we talk about inner circles, which ones are we talking about? Let me do a bit of a breakdown here.

The Old-Timers: This is tough because on the net, an old-timer can often be someone who has been around for 6 months. So on ASCEM(L), we start with the ASFS Old-Timers. I can personally think of four who post with any degree of regularity: Alara (who I think has been here longer than any of us), atara (whose been around since Dec '94), myself (Feb '95) and Kimbuck3 (I'm not sure when she got involved). Then there are the ASCE Old-Timers (and I get fuzzy here because ASCE never really seemed to jell the way ASFS and ASCEM(L)did/have): Greywolf, R.J., Cam, Robin, BGM, Alexas (who hardly ever posts her own posts, but does us all an incredible service), Anne (who does occasionally post her own stuff and works equally hard to get the TrekSmut out to y'all), and others. Most of these people were also active (or even exclusively active) on ASC because ASC was pretty much spam free. An finally there are the ASCEM(L) Old-Timers: raku, jonk, much of the rest of the TOS crowd, and some of our newer admin types like Katie and Dina.

The Funny People (Class Clowns, if you will): This includes Greywolf, Robin, Jen, BGM, and so on (yeah I'm in there too). These are the people who write parodies, TSU snippets and cultivate semi-virtual personalities that show up in one another's parodies. Now, this is pretty much a clique, but we aren't exclusive. Otherwise, TSU wouldn't exist. Jen started that and AFAIK, Jen's only been posting to ASCEM(L) for a couple of months. So this is a "come on in and do your stuff" circle.

The Prolific Writers: Robin immediately comes to mind, as do Cam, Varoneeka, and BGM (and as noted above, many people whose names I'm forgetting). All you have to do to be "in" with this bunch is to write a lot.

The People Who like to Talk about Any Subject: This might just be the Class clowns again. I'm thinking of raku, Greywolf, Robin, Jen, myself and people like that. This bunch has opinions and they're not afraid to share them.

The People Who Like to Talk about a Particular Subject: these are the people who post on the stuff they know about/write about. So you have the series crowds (the TOS bunch), the pairings crowds (the O/K people), and so on.

Any others that I've missed? Feel free to add to the list. I'm going to break and answer the rest of Emily's post tomorrow.

Ruth, who hopes she didn't come across as either defensive or overly egotistical.

[Kimbuk3]: Hey Emily, I really appreciated that in your post, you used the phrase, "From where I'm sitting", "I feel", or "This makes me feel". I hope by doing this you realize that the detailed analysis you wrote was extremely subjective. Which is fine. Nothing wrong with that, but it's only how you perceive things. As I was reading through your list I was saying to myself, "Really?? She sees X/X like that? That's not how I see them at all!"

For instance, it totally cracks me up that you see TOS and K/S as being hip and part of the inner circle. I have been subscribing to the various Trek Smut newsgroups for almost four years, and it's only within the last 6 to 9 months that there's been *any TOS at all*. For years there wasn't anything. Now that's due to the fact that historically, TOS and K/S fanfiction has existed (and continues to exist in zines). But I certainly don't think of it as "hip" as far as the net goes. I still think, "Wow, someone's actually written a TOS story."

I think there are two reasons TOS stories may get slightly more feedback. 1) There are people like me who like TOS and want to encourage writers to write more TOS stories. 2) Fans who have a history in zine based fandoms, like TOS, may tend to write more feedback. For years it was done through actual handwritten letters. (I know - hard to believe.)

As to your question about cliques and cool people. I actually disagree with your phrasing the question like that. I agree that there are certain people on the list who tend to post a lot of messages and participate in a lot of threads. However, I just think that's due to the fact that they are willing to spend the time necessary to post so much. I mean where *do* they find the time??

Seriously, I think it's not difficult to be an active participant on this board and be part of the "inner circle," but it does require a serious time commitment, which is why I'm usually more of a lurker.

Anyway, that's just my two strips on your comments and questions...

[Ariana]: Emily, this was fascinating and all the more so because I agree with a lot of what you said - but just never thought it out in such detail before.

There was indeed a long discussion about ASCEM being cliqueish recently (possibly before you arrived, though) and this may well give rise once more to that old monster thread ;). But I do agree that there are people who are *very* in - who post all the time and get tons of public feedback on their stories, and others who aren't "in", and have a less high profile. There's no right or wrong - that's just the way it goes.

>>Could this be because K/S is the original slash, the genesis of fanfic? Do you think that has something to do with offering a K/S writer more validity, somehow, than a P/C writer, for example, or a J/J writer?

I think it's probably simply because a lot of TOS authors happen to hang around ASCEM. Perhaps, as you yourself said, Emily, P/C authors, for instance, tend to have their own separate forums for stories and feedback. Or it could just be a complete fluke.

Yes, TOS, in particular K/S, does generate a lot of feedback on ASCEM - but imo, it seems to be feedback from the same group of people, which proves nothing as to K/S having more 'validity' than other genres. It just shows there may be more K/S fans (particularly on ASCEML) than those of other genres - or at least, that those of other genres are more inclined to lurk. But if most of the members of my K/Du mailing-list were subscribed to ASCEML, I'm sure you'd find DS9 stories were suddenly flooded with feedback, too.

[much snipped]

[Kym Hamilton]: Hon', i agree with you 100% about the "cool kids". In fact, i suspect that's what i was trying to get across in my response to your post, but i didn't have the words for it. Thanks for giving them to me.

I suppose the reason i'm not "cool" is 'cause i write Chakotay/Paris - which is Voyager and comes under paragraph 6. C/P, by the way, has its own little splinter group as well.

Anyway, all this "self-analysis" stuff is boring. I know precisely who i am, and why i write what i write, but i doubt anyone else wants to hear about it. :-)

Lets just leave it as "I agree with you", shall we? :-)

[Killashandra]: Well, well... isn't this interesting? ASCEM... cliquey? I have to admit I was really surprised to read that. Maybe I'm just being the typical dense blondeness that is me, and seeing everything through rose colored glasses? It wouldn't be the first time, I suppose. But...

I subscribed to a.s.f.s. back in 1995, and hung around a.s.c. and a.s.c.e. for all the years (ack!) since then. In fact, I think my first story was originally posted to a.s.f.s. But ASCEM is the first Trek ng I've really felt like I'm a part of. I don't post very often (the dreaded Real Life.) But this is the first group or list I've felt like, it doesn't matter. I can post once or twice a month and I still feel like part of the community. Of course we have our little disagreements, like any family, but the atmosphere is so much more welcoming here than on any other group or list I've ever been on. Of course there's going to be the people who post a lot to the different threads, and those who are the "class clowns" (and I love you guys!) and those who write prolifically. They hold us together. But that's true in a family too. What I love about ASCEM is that you don't *have* to be a vocal member of the family to have fun, participate, and be accepted.

[snipped]

:-O You should have seen my jaw hit the floor when I read this. K/S??? The *cool* fanfic??? I've been at cons more than once where K/S was referred to as "the Fandom that Dares Not Speak Its Name." The only reason I ever posted a K/S story is because I had been hanging around a.s.f.s for months and seen not one single TOS story! I was desperate. And (back me up here Kimbuk3) how many months was it that we sat there scanning desperately for any sign of TOS (never mind K/S!) to show up anywhere? Anyway, if I have a point I guess it's that "cool" is a relative (and cyclical) phenomenon.

I don't mean to devalidate anyone's feelings of being left out. I'm just really surprised, that's all. I've always been primarily a lurker, at least as far as the discussions go, but I've followed many of the threads and never felt like I was witnessing any kind of exclusive behavior. And I thought Ruth's and Emily's posts about why others might feel differently really interesting. Maybe it will help give people who are feeling alienated a chance to air their opinions.

But I just wanted to chirp up and say please let's try not to point fingers and name names too much? I really, really don't want a replay of the skirmishes that went on over on ASC not so long ago. They got kinda nasty, and I for one would be sad to see ASCEM lose any of the atmosphere I've come to value so highly. Geez, now I sound like a girl scout leader or something. Killa, lighten up!  :-D

Thanks for bearing with me, Killa

[Ellen Ross]: You know, I've gotten to the point where every time this (the "do we have cliques?" question) comes up in several different places, I'm amused. I think the subject line has it right - what we *have* is a community. And just like offline communities, (like churches, or social groups of other sorts), there are the people everybody recognizes because they stand up and speak, they take on thankless jobs, they're always around. New people show up, and sometimes the old fogies are so involved with what they're doing they don't notice at first, and sometimes there's a big handshake and the newcomer is pulled right in.

Depending on the newcomer, sometimes they slip right in unnoticed, and all of the sudden they're in the middle of things, taking on their share of responsibility and fun. Others stick in a toe, sidle around the edges, test the waters; of these, some eventually make it completely into the water. Others stay on the fringes and you might notice them occasionally, but you never quite catch their name, or learn much about them, usually because they seem to want it that way. Still others jump right in the middle, start pounding everyone on the back, making them choke, and then wonder why the crowds disperse whenever they show up.

And I don't think there's much analyzable rhyme or reason to it - it has to do with individual personalities and how those personalities interact.

I too find the idea that K/S is the "cool crowd" round here amusing. K/S is my own personal favorite, so I've been *thrilled* by the recent surge in postings. But when I started reading slash (ASC, 1996, torch's "Too Dear For My Possessing", P/K - **must*** read stuff, like all her stuff, though she's slunk off into M/Kdom...) there was virtually *no* K/S online, for reasons already mentioned, and VOY was *everywhere*. The "cool" folk seemed to be people like torch, R'Rain, Amirin, Ny Martin, and P/K was the hottest thing going. As far as I can tell, it goes in waves (like just about everything else). But just a quick browse on R'Rain's Slash Archive will show you where the two series stand as far as *quantity* (and I think DS9 still beats out TOS as well, thanks to those sluts in the medlab and tailor shop). VOY may be in a slower spot right now (to my mind, because of the travesty the show has become, and the lack of new slash fodder), but I'm sure it [they?] will come again....

I think the whole TSU phenomena, as truly delightful as it is, aids and abets the "cliquish" feel of things - which is no reason to avoid it, since it is at the same time a great builder of community and list culture. It names names, confers titles, a gives a virtual "who's really who on ASCEM", which probably makes the folks *not* named feel left out. *Not* because those are intrinsically cooler folks (well, okay. IMO Ruth and Greywolf and Killa are intrinsically cool, but they're my heros, and I await every literary gem that drops from their keyboards, whether I get around to telling them that or not. And Ruth and Alexas and Anne are intrinsically cool because they give *so* much and I worship them, as one should true TrekSmut Goddesses).

Anyway. It's not (IMO) because of intrinsic coolness, but because of established intimacy that has developed over (varying amounts of) time, the fact that the "in" folks have strong, dynamic personalities that make them memorable, they are some of the most active in the group in terms of storytelling and general posting, and they love to play around with this stuff. I don't think it's because they write the "right" pairings; to a certain extent, the "traditional" pairings are so in part *because* of the outstanding writing these people do for their own favorite pairings. One of the writes a story, somebody else reads it and gets ideas, and it mushrooms.

And I think that in large part, whether you feel "in" or not is up to you. Most of you probably have no idea who I am, but whether anybody else would consider me "in" or not, I certainly don't feel [left] "out". Whether through giving feedback (mostly offlist), writing/posting a few Blue Reviews (which activity is in limbo right now), and occasionally interacting with the ASCEM denizens, I feel right at home. I don't say much, especially since being seduced by another fandom (gasp!), but I keep up, I know who's who, and there are still particular authors I make it a point to keep up with. So, in TSU terms, that's me, primarily focusing on Independent Study and Correspondence Courses, off in one of the Library's study carrels, surrounded by piles of books, occasionally wandering into this professor's office or that, catching the occasional special lecture, occasionally piping up with my two cents worth (okay, it's usually at *least* a quarter's worth), leaving everyone going "who's that? Where'd she come from?" Then I wander off to the Blue Review Bar&Grill across the street and eavesdrop....

And who the hell am I, some of you ask? I've been mostly lurking so long at this point, I didn't bother to respond to the "who's who" thread. I too have been on ASCEM(L) since it started (funny sounding - ain't been *that* long, except in netyears). I lurked on ASC for over a year (95-96) before ever saying anything - I was intimidated by list culture, didn't think I had anything worth saying - till I sent my first feedback to torch and got back a lovely warm and thankful repsponse. Funny thing, as soon as I spoke up, folks treated me just *like* a regular, and I made a number of friends very quickly. I browsed ASCE a bit, but accessing it through DejaNews was *such* a pain in the ass. When ASCEM(L) was formed (god bless!), I leapt right in. Now, I don't read a whole lot, but I browse most threads, drop a remark occasionally, and *thoroughly* enjoy all the creativity, good spirits and warmth that are so abundant around here.

Besides, all you unnamed TSU folk - who the hell do you think the university is *for*? Those inbred professorial types may *think* they're in it for themselves, but where would they be without us students.....

(Note: So, is Jenn Shipp aware that she's TSUs nurse? Probably puts quite a dent in the time available to her as Regent of ROG-U....)

[Varoneeka]: Okay, I understand, I think, what you're trying to do here, but I have some major problems with your methods. I don't mean this as a slam -- methodology is the most important part of any aurgument, after all -- I'm just wondering if you're up for a little reevaluation of your approach.

This "social dynamic comes to be here," as you yourself point out, because it's what happens whenever (absolutely whenever) people get together in a group. Over time, the talkers know each other's names, the lurkers know the talkers' names, and the new people or lurkers have to make noise before they get noticed. I don't think people who've been writing to each other over a period of years should have to feel at all self-conscious about being familiar with each other and knowing a few inside jokes. Since I myself am not one of these inside people -- I've only been dealing with Treksmut about a year now -- I think I can say with some subjectivity that the joking I see here, even when I don't personally get it, isn't *designed* to exclude people. Friendly talk gets both less formal and more "inside" in any social group. If you want to get the jokes, read the posts, and eventually they make some sense.

>>Could this be because K/S is the original slash, the genesis of fanfic? Do you think that has something to do with offering a K/S writer more validity, somehow, than a P/C writer, for example, or a J/J writer?

And this here is where I really start to get uncomfortable with your whole approach. I don't think the pairings have much to do with any "validity." People do tend to read pairings whatever the author because they find certain characters sexy and certain other characters not sexy, but since you're focusing on the authors and posters together, the pattern is much clearer that it's not a K/S writer who gets attention, but a *good* or *interesting* writer who does so. I mean, who here isn't at least a little fascinated by Ruth Gifford's post about the hardware store? It's gotten many responses not because she writes P/Q and Xena, but because 1) the post itself caught people's interest 2) Ruth has enough presence in the ng for people to know they can respond to her and not get slammed or mocked. Greywolf is a major poster who gets a lot of response *not* because he writes TOS, but because his postings are funny and engaging. His whole furry persona invites you to imagine him, and to respond to him with comfort. When he did respond to one of my stories -- my TOS one, of course -- I felt I had a pat on the back from someone I'd seen around the office and admired, and it made me feel all gooshy inside.

Posts that I see getting ignored are often those which simply do not prompt anyone to answer. Deanna/Alara's little posting session didn't really get many participants until the end because, well, jumping in there looked a little dangerous for a while. Julia asked for specific information about her writing class not too long ago and she hasn't gotten any responses probably because people who haven't taught a writing class might not really feel they want to contribute. I can think of posts from people whose names I didn't recognize and don't remember who asked for information I didn't respond to because I didn't know it, I didn't think they were talking to me, or I didn't like their attiitude and didn't want to end up in a flame war. I have *never* thought, "This person isn't cool enough for me to bother with."

[snipped]

And I don't wish to sound offended, nor do I think you're being offensive, but I do think you might be missing the fun stuff through hasty generalization. I've seen some *stupid* K/S, G/B, P/Q, Kir/Du -- you name it! And I've seen some really wonderful pairings of people I never thought I'd like. It's the quality of the stories that matters and how people *feel* at the time. This pattern you're suggesting seems just too formal for me. I don't think people come to this ng with *any* conspiracy or agenda other than catching hold of a hot story or an interesting debate. Even subconsciously, I don't think people go "Oh, there's a 'cool' story pairing/author, I'll respond to that!"

Personally speaking, I'll read anything with Picard or Q in it, not because it's cool, but because they turn me on. When I have the time and am in the mood, I'll look at any story posted here, read the first bit, and if it interests me, I'll read more. If it doesn't, *click* and I'm on to the next thing. The wonderful freedom here -- to say shit and fuck and talk about two guys getting it on with toys and Jell-o, also the freedom of not have to PAY for any of this beyond the money I give AOL -- keeps me from having to form any plots or plans for enjoying the ng. Designating things "cool" or "uncool" simply takes too much effort.

[snipped]

If you think you're cool, then you are, I think. I think everyone here who has the nerve to post *anything* is cool automatically. I respect your desire to understand how things work, and I'm glad you're having a good time. So am I, and I would never want to impinge on your fun, but you did ask for response, so I'm telling you what I think.

[Robin Lawrie]: Anyone who writes f/f treksmut is cool enough for me. But that's just slutty old me speaking....

Now I've read the replies to Emily's post about ascem, and I've already replied to Emily privately, but after reading Ruth's post it seems I'm outed as one the more vocal participants in this newsgroup. So why break with tradition? <g>

I've been out of paid employment for about six years now doing the "mother" thing at home. Talk about career change<g>. But one of the things I miss most about work is having a group of peers around me to bounce off ideas, bag the shit out of, go drinking together, flirt, and generally carry on like knuckleheads. (What? I hear you ask. Didn't you do *any* work? <g> It was the Eighties. Work hard, play hard.) Now I don't get out (or around) as much as I used to, so all this repressed desire for social interaction has to come out somewhere, and this ng is part of it. Sure I've got the RL friends and team sports etc for face to face stuff, but not many of them understand about treksmut and the need to write it. That's what this place is all about.

For the last two years I've been hanging round asce and the ascem(l). In that time I've posted heaps of stuff to the group, both stories and discussions. I'm usually a fence sitter when it comes to controversy, as conflict and disagreement do nothing for me. The Slash Wars of asc were particularly painful as I watched many friends get hurt and offended. As greywolf does, I sometimes cross post stories to asc, but not everytime. I certainly don't *lurk* there. This place is far more laid back. More my style.

As newsgroups go, the only other one I regularly lurk and contribute to that comes close to ascem in tone, is aus.tv. We also have a "clique" of regular posters who keep trollers in line, comment regularly, are amusing, opinionated and not scared of a fight..er..discussion. However, it's not unknown to have people "kicked off" their service provider for being a dick head. As far as I know, this has never happened to ascem and if it did I would be bloody cranky. This group is self regulating(and moderated) in the nicest possible way. The closest thing we've had to a nasty troll is the occassional plea for "post more Seven stories".

Ascem(L) feels very "Australian" to me. A classless society of diverse cultural backgrounds that kicks along happily most of the time, without pretensions of being anything more.

[Julia]: I could really do a much better job responding to this post if you would define "cool" for me.

There are, without question, some people here who are only names to me, however often they've posted, and others who've taken care to create personalities, either by having nick-names and making cracks about themselves, or by having a really recognizable "speaking" voice, or by having viewpoints on things that they support in most of their posts, or by doing anything else consistently so that I "recognize" them. In fact, I think the need for repetition for recognition is what makes us like those "signature" parts of the posts. Ruth (and others) has her changing quotes, JJ (I think it's JJ) has that "my sig ran away from home" thing. I have my self-promoting notice about my pages, Atara (or should I call you atara? I mean, do you prefer that from strangers or is that something only Ruth should say?) has her triangle, other people have running jokes -- it's things like this which make me feel I "know" people here, or that they're "cool" -- if by "cool" you mean "recognizable," though I'm really not sure that's what you mean.

Oh, book recommendation here (one Mercutio will recognize -- do I still owe you commentary or did you get tired of it?) is Frank Kermode's *The Genesis of Secrecy,* which is all about the nature of "inside" information and interpretation. This book is a cornerstone of academia these days, so you may have read it already. If not, I urge you to do so. In it, he discusses the gospells, some lovely Kafka allegories, as well as a "fable" about a man who goes to learn the law and spends his life sitting outside the doorway, which never opens. His main points concern the recognition that ALL interpretation requires inside knowledge, beginning with knowledge of the language itself, and proceeding from there.

This whole "clique" accusation -- though to mention Merc again, she commented that we might take it as a compliment instead of an accusation -- however, I believe that it's MEANT as an accusation -- seems to me to come from people who get on the ng, read a few things, post, get no response, and then decide that ASCEM is cliquish and snobby. Or perhaps from lurkers who finally decide to post something, get no response, and decide that the ASCEM is cliquish and snobby. I've made MANY posts to this ng which have garnered a big fat ZERO in response, that doesn't make the ng cliquish and snobby -- Hey, there's a motto for the TSU -- "We're not cliquish or snobby -- we're horny!."

Anyway, the reason my posts didn't get response is because no one felt like responding to them. I didn't say something anyone went "Oh, I wanna say --------" to. The end. This might be because my ideas weren't interesting, my language wasn't inviting, or my personality turned people off. It happens. It doesn't make those people mean, and it doesn't make me "uncool," whatever that means. It just happens.

Sometimes, though, I have posted here and gotten a response. Am I suddenly now "cool?" Doubt it. I've just been lucky enough to catch someone's attention. It's nice, but it doesn't "validate" me. Making friends FEELS like validation, but it's not. It's something much nicer.

Have I been rambling? Probably. Anyway, I personally love this ng and spend WAY too much time on it because I LIKE the in-jokes, even when I don't get them. I like listening to people saying fun things to each other, enjoying each other's cyber-company, having a good time about sex and Trek. I love the absense of identifiable children here. I love the way people can talk about ANYTHING here...

In fact, *sniff sniff sniff* I LOVE YOU ALL!!!! Waaaaaaa!

[Alara Rogers]: Me-- as Ruth said, I may well have been posting to the various incarnations of this ng since before anyone else who is posting here nowadays. And I usually *still* feel like an outsider. I throw myself into fandoms obsessively, churning out fanfic, or doing zillions of posts, or offering to archive/run mailing lists/write FAQs... and I always feel like an outsider. it's an intrinsic part of my makeup, and no matter how much validation I get from the fannish community, the moment I slack off slightly and the validation slows down, I feel isolated. And I think, from a wholly objective standpoint, I probably do count as a respected dino, at least.

So being part of the in clique has nothing to do with whether you actually *are* or not, nothing to do with how long you've been here or how often you post or what you write. (I've seen J/C be considered the hottest thing since sliced bread; I was here for the days when all *anyone* ever wanted to talk about as Bashir; I remmeber when K/S on the net was a revolutionary and wonderful new thing; I was around when *no one* did P/Q's, and I couldn't quite figure out how they *could* be done.) It has to do with how you feel. Decide that you're in, and presto chango! You're in. Feel like you're out, and you'll always feel excluded, regardless of the objective evidence otherwise.

I suspect that the people who complain about the in-clubbiness of ascem simply don't know *how* to join a new group. it's a skill.

[Ruth Gifford]: First of all, as someone mentioned in a post this evening, K/S is the genesis of *slash* not fanfic in general, not even TrekSmut. So why so much K/S and why so many vocal discussions by K/S writers and readers on ASCEM(L) now? I'd call it the "room of their own" syndrome. Until recently, K/s has been a *print* fandom. The print editors and writers use the 'net to make putting 'zines together, and AFAIK any K/S mailing lists are strictly private. When ASCEM(L) got going, there were all of 15 TOS stories in adult section of the archive. 15 *total* including a few K/S stories. For some reason (call it fate, call it karma -- gratuitous pop culture reference) ASCEM(L) started collecting K/S writers, and vocal ones at that. I personally think it's that the TOS bunch (we have some fairly vocal S/Mc fans here too) in general, and the K/S crowd in particular are just dang happy to be here.

[snipped]

Hold on, I've read some *really* bad G/B. And I've read some extremely good G/B. New-wave cool? It's hard for me to think that when I think that it was all the rage (as Alara's mentioned) back in the ASFS days (you couldn’t turn around for tripping over the phrase "caramel colored skin"). G/B tends to draw those who want to write kinky stuff, or stuff that examines cultural differences, or stuff that's dark. It's probably because DS9 is dark, and G/B have that power and control thing going on.

[snipped]

BONC is huge. It is, in effect, it's own newsgroup and it's own support group. Often the feeling seems to be that BONCers have what they need from their mailing list and that's good enough for them. This is *not* a charge of exclusivity; if there were a big active P/Q mailing list that was anything like BONC, I'd be very active on it too. I wouldn't abandon ASCEM(L) because I like to read other stuff and I have friends here, but some people are pairing-specific writers/readers. Please note that the Best TNG Story Golden O went to a story that wasn't *strictly* P/C, but was firmly rooted (stop snickering Robin) in that dynamic.

P/T, J/C, C/P, and P/K (and probably others that I don't know about) also have big mailing list families. I first found ASFS when Voyager was new and hardly a week passed that "Your Cruise Director" wasn't posting yet another J/C episode epilogue and if she didn't, she was nagging her friends (in the nicest possible way) to write J/C.

[snipped] I've always thought that G/B and P/Q writers examined some of the same unequal character dynamic (the naïve young man and the smooth spy, and the repressed captain and the flamboyant god), whereas the "equality" dynamic (stated in the late 70s as why women wrote K/S) seemed to be found in P/K and K/S. I would imagine that the K/Du stories (which I don't read, because I have *no* idea what's going on on DS9 these days) look at that dynamic as well. Also, you're talking about characters that have *very* distinct "voices." If you don't get Picard down right, or you stumble when writing K/Du dialog, it'll show.

[snipped]

J/C has been on the 'net since the first Voyager ep aired. J/C, like P/C (Picard/Crusher, I mean), is based on canonical UST. Not *subtext* UST (P/Q, G/B and so on), but out and out declared interest without sex. And, to me, a lot of J/C reads like P/C. Generalization alert! Not the actual stories (big diff because of P & C's mutual background), but the "romantic" feel that so many of these stories have.

[snipped]

But there's some really "unshiny" TNG stuff out there. Look at all the Data stories that got posted last year. TNG is not happening right now, but wait until next December and people are riled up over ST:IX and then see what's going on.

[snipped]

VOY stories took off on ASFS and then found a permanent home on ASCE. As has been mentioned, you didn't see a week go by when torch R'rain, Jan and June, or "Emma" (or, in good weeks a couple of the above) were posting a new VOY story. As far as the 'net and ASCEM(L) are concerned, VOY has contributed one big, important thing to the world of Trek slash: f/f slash. Yes there were the occasional Crusher/Troi or Kira/Dax stories, but by giving us good, strong *interesting* female characters, TPTB made it possible for cool people like Rev. Jim to write hot f/f.

[snipped]

Clinical? Maybe. but clinical can be agood ting. What I see is that you're looking at ASCEM(L) (and talking to ASCEM(L) folk) right now and drawing a lot of conclusions that aren't grounded in the history of TrekSmut on the 'net. This is *not* a Bad Thing (as I've said in my letters). I happen to approve of pop culture studies (Shakespeare is 16th cent pop sulture) and I think that it's time for a study of the net TrekSmut community as a organic whole. The problem arises from the fact that this particular organic community is fluid and cyclical. Yesterday it was P/C, today it's K/S, tomorrow it could be J/7.

snipped]

TSU . . .  ::sigh:: Don't get me wrong; I eat it up, whether I'm in the post or not. And it happens elsewhere; there's the Kingdom of Senad on the Sentinel mailing list) wherein "regulars" have court postitions at the court of King Blair (really!), one of the Xena mailing lists has its own Xenaverse with the "regulars" having various alternate personas. Is TSU cliquey? In that some of us were assigned positions based on our attitudes and our frequency of posting, yes. In that it's exclusive, no. If we were that exclusive, Jen's original TSU post would have simply been ignored as the post of a newbie who hadn't paid her dues (I've been in the Society for Creative Anachronism; I know what I'm talking about here). BTW, anyone can write a TSU post and fill any number of vacant roles; our budget is endless . . .  :-)

[snipped]

First of all, as Julia said, define "cool." Honestly, when I see a post from you, I think, "this will probably be thought provoking and well worded." No, I usually don't do spit takes, and I don't always answer, but then I frequently don't answer a lot of posts that I like. I can be flip and off the cuff at the drop of a hat. OTOH, writing *this* post has been exhausting (but interesting).

Is Emily a "cool kid?" I think so because I think that academics who study pop culture are cool. I'm married to one as a matter of fact (we're off to Florida next week so that atara can give a paper on Xena), and I think that ASCEM(L) is worthy of study because of the community and the fact that it's a new chapter in the story of fanfic and shared universe writing. Now that's cool.

[Geoffrey]: I never thought I'd throw my 2 cents into this kind of discussion, but I'm going to go ahead and make one observation.

I sense the same thing I think you and others are sensing, but I don't feel anything negative about it. Not so much an "in crowd" and "outsiders", just varying levels of intimacy in people's online conversations.

I figure the intimacy comes from external email conversations that I don't get to see. I don't feel intimate with any of the other members of ASCEM, but then neither do I communicate with anyone via email unless they specifically request it because of an unreliable newsfeed.

I'm a little uncomfortable in one-on-one email conversations, but relaxed when I speak to the group. When someone from the group sends me an email, I'm always startled. Writers sometimes respond to me with direct email after I've posted to the group, and that really surprises me.

Anyway, it's clear to me from things that people say in their posts that there's a whole subterranean email flurry going on, probably with more traffic than the newsgroup sees. I wish it was all public, but I know some people think the opposite of me, and feel safer making private communications. Surely that engenders intimacy you can't get from the group alone.

[Jen]: Why are folks here so cool? Because, we can be! Naw, seriously, it's because here you have a group of people who don't live within societies norms, but on the net, where everybody's kinda anonymously freaky, we look conservative because we're just being ourselves. We have, as my friend Oprah calls it, A SHITLOAD OF SELF-ESTEEM!!! Pass the prozac! Actually, I think the K/S bunch are cool because they have been hanging onto the belief that Kirk and Spock are a great couple, long before anyone else ever thought of it. They INVENTED slash, and if that isn't cool what is? It also helps that they can actually write well, but *snort* that's just talent, and everybody out there knows that TALENT won't get you anywhere! I mean, get real dude!

[snipped]

...I never watched Voyager, I live in BFE, MS and we don't get it here. Shit. So I really can't tell canon VOY from fanfic. I will give ya this, though: I started out a Xena fan, right, and DS9 came on after. Well, I was awake so I watched it. Then I met a buddy who read the fanfic--O/K to be exact--and got me hooked. Then, after a few shows and a fanfic story called "Basilisk" me and my pal started wondering about G/B...well, I was. She had suspected since she read a professional novel called "Proud Helios" by Melissa Scott. We then wrote Carolyn Fulton and asked, hey, we're probably freaks, but are there any G/B stories out there? Yep, there were, the first of which belonged to my good friend BGM. And if that didn't intrigue us into watching the show more often, Sophie's nickname did it. BGM. What the hell was BGM, we asked--One person, three people, who the hell knew? She has like thirty different writing styles. And what the fuck did BGM stand for: Big Gay Man? It wasn't until we became close friend's that we found out it really stood for Bashir Garak Slash Slut Machine...like that was any better. So you could argue that Trekkies like the show BECAUSE of the fanfic, not that they like the fanfic because of the show.

[snipped]

Okay, okay....calm down sweetie! Here's the answer, it's no biggie: The so-called 'cool kids' are cool because they actually post shit. The kid in the class who gets A's raises his hand every once in a while...he's also the one who gets stuffed into his locker between classes....thus a slasher is born! We write therefore we are cool. If you post, people will read you, if you post shit, noone will respond because it's shit and who wants to grab the 'letric pooper scooper if it ain't your puppy? Don't complain or you'll get flamed. If you post the most the cool will rule. And if if it don't fit, you must quit. EVERYBODY LOVES JONNY!!!!

[Beth]:

When I first started hanging out in ASC a little over two years ago, there WAS NO TOS! (I can't speak for the erotica group, because I only started reading it after it became ASCEM.)

TNG was the big thing. I wrote my first TOS story because I desperately wanted TOS stories! The TOS writers slowly began appearing out of the woodwork, and we were so rare that we typically welcomed one another warmly, happy to see others contributing to the rare TOS stories. (Just ask Stephen Ratliff or Alara about how rare they used to be!) Seeing a new writer post a TOS story really made me feel like "Oh, my God, a new TOS story/writer!!!" And I'd email another email buddy who was also hungry for TOS and say, "Hey, did you see, there's a new TOS writer!" Honestly, I felt like I was part of an endangered species, and was always excited to learn that there were others out there who love TOS.

I guess there is a lot of TOS around here these days, and maybe to newcomers we look like a clique, but in the beginning it felt like *I* was the outsider, and everytime a new TOS writer appeared on the scene, the feeling was, "Hey, there's someone else like me out there." It's interesting to see that from a newcomer's perspective, the tables have turned.

I believe that after you've been around for a couple of years, Emily, you'll see that these things run in cycles. TOS may seem to be "where it's at" these days, but it was not always the case. I felt like the TOS writers were the blacksheep of ASC for a long time. If you're interested in looking at those types of trends for your research, you might go into the archives and take a survey of what types of stories have been posted over the years. (I believe all the stories are listed with their original post dates.) I'm sure you'll be able to identify trends in popularity that might give you more food for thought for your paper.

[Kathie]:

>>[Raku wrote]:As for cliques, I'd add that one thing I've found is that some people are accessible in their posts and writing, others not. That is, some people are so lively and florid and shedding fur all over the floor that it's easy to respond to their writing and messages--there's a lot of verve to work with. When people write me notes about my stories I respond, but some notes are so tentative and formal I find it hard to say anything other than thanks very much for the feedback (maybe that's enough). Some people emote and tell jokes and tell you a lot about themselves--there's more there to work with, and I think I write livelier stuff in response. But not everyone feels comfy sending notes to strangers that are so full of personality (for lack of a better way to phrase it).

I agree completely with this - I am one who doesn't feel quite comfortable yet responding 'in kind' to a lot of the posts that I see here. As much as I enjoy the humour, and appreciate the wit of the writers, I am a new girl, and hesitant to respond. This is not the fault of anyone in the newsgroup - it is about the way I approach people unknown to me.

A second factor in this is that a lot of the stories (and the feedback!) in this newsgroup are so damn good! Stories like His Beloved Pet, Escher Dreams, Turning Point, Orfeo (and many, many others) are so thought-provoking, and so compelling, that I feel inadequate to say anything except a heartfelt thank you to the authors. This, as Raku so aptly points out above, does not make a stimulating post!

Even the feedback is often incredibly detailed, and thought-provoking in its own right. I have often had to reread a story after a particularly interesting analysis, looking at it in a completely new light!

So. In my opinion, no, this newsgroup is not cliquey (sp?) - itprobably just takes a little more time to 'move in' and settle down. I'm looking forward to it.

[Patti Vickers]: I am a lurker. I have never -- if I remember correctly -- posted to ASCE and now ASCEM. I have emailed people privately -- Greywolf, and some others -- mostly when their rather descriptive posts made me laugh. And laugh hysterically. Or when their stories inspired me in different ways!

Why, you ask, am I posting now? I have read Emily's post and everything that has come afterwards - as I read everything that is posted here and in ASC. And as someone who is not one of the "cool kids" <g>, I wanted to comment on this.

I have enjoyed reading everything I have on the ng -- and have truly enjoyed figuring out just a little behind the minds who take the time and have the time to write and post here. Mostly that "figuring out" comes not from the stories but the "back and forth banter" between various parties. I am happy everyone has taken the time to write, post and chat. Right now, chairing a con, I don't have the time -- I barely have time to read and remember to eat and sleep occasionally.

Do I feel excluded from ASCEM? No -- why would I? If I am excluded than that's *my* fault -- I have chosen not to post, I have chosen to be a passive "lurker". Chosen. If I had more time and possibly more faith in my own writing skills I would post (you guys are good!). But honestly, nothing I have seen here would lead me to believe that if suddenly I became a consistent and literate poster that I would be ignored. I don't think I would be -- I think that once people recognized my posts, my style and my bizarre sense of humour, that I would as included as I choose to be.

Do I think ASCEM is cliquey? No. Yes, there are names that pop up more than others. And yes, you recognize them. And yes, their posts inspire more "talk" than some others. Call me naive but I just assumed that had to do with the fact that most of those people have been around, posting, for a long time. Or if not for a long time, certainly posting frequently. And allowing people to "get to know them" (if you will allow me to use that phrase) via their posts. Don't you always talk more to your friends than to people you don't know? I know I do.

Ah, the various pairings: K/S. Cool? In my very humble opinion, as long as it's well written it's all pretty cool. There is a lot of K/S but again, I thought it was mostly because K/S slash is the granddaddy of all of this. At least in my opinion. That's how I got introduced to it all -- by someone at Toronto Trek doing a panel on Slash Fan Fiction and that's how they presented it -- they could have been wrong, but I guess that's how they saw it. But I think people write what they know and write what inspires them -- just as people read and enjoy more of what they like. I can read say a...G/B story and see it's merits. But since I don't watch DS9, I wouldn't comment on it nor would I attempt to write it. Myself, I would be more inclined to write Voyager fiction. And yes, there is less of that, because it's been around less time.

Anyway, I have really enjoyed my time here. And I hope that eventually, sometime after July, I might be able to get my act together and actually *write* something. And by the way, if the TSU shirts ever get made up, I would love to see some of you wearing them at Toronto Trek this year. There are a number of fan fic panels this year and I think any and of all of you would be a welcome addition to the discussions. Our slash fiction panels with NovaD (who is coming back this year) was one of the most attended panels last year!

Anyway, enough of the con stuff. Other than the signature line...

Thanks for writing and I am delighted to be a part (albeit silent part) of this community.

['Chele]: Well, I'm going to step out from the darkness of lurkerdom and jump right in with both feet. This topic has been brought up before and then, as now, I'm left scratching my head and going 'Huh?'

Certainly there are people who post a lot here and there are people whose postings I check for, even when I'm really behind and deleting like mad to catch up. However, I don't see the group as particularly clique-ish.

I was trying to explain the atmosphere on ASCEM to my mother the last time I saw her (closet? What's a closet? ;^) and the best metaphor that I could come up with was that of a really big party. There's a sort of flow to the 'room' with loud laughter from over in that direction and serious discussion going on over thataway and over it all a steady stream of really cool music that everyone listens to and remarks on from time to time.

I was thinking about this thread and realized that that metaphor works really well for explaining how I feel about the group, too. Unlike Auntie Ruth, I'm an introvert (*way* far over on the I side of the Myers-Briggs scale, if anybody knows about that stuff) and I tend to park myself on a couch somewhere at a party and just watch. I listen in on the conversations without joining in too often, watch people dancing and laughing and just soak up the energy. That's not to say that I don't answer when someone talks to me, just that I rarely initiate a conversation. In other words, I lurk. <g>

OTOH, when I do have something to say, I say it and at this particular party, I usually get answered and I never have to worry about appearing outre. I'm odd, but I ain't the oddest at this gathering. I may go months between posts, but I've never been flamed for anything I've said here.

In my younger days, this sitting on the sidelines made me uncomfortable -- I felt like I wasn't cool, like I had nothing to contribute. Nowadays, I tend more toward accepting it for what it is, a tendency in myself that's neither good nor bad, just who I am.

I don't just do this on ASCEM, by the by. I'm ListMommy for a couple of other lists and do behind the scenes stuff on a couple of others, but I don't tend to post a lot on any of those either. Yet I still feel like part of the community, both on those other lists and here. Despite the fact that I still haven't done a 'Who Am I' post -- maybe now that I have a little more time. Is it too late?

Which brings me to another point -- time. I don't have a lot of it. After I get done *reading* the posts from this and the 1200 other lists I'm on, I usually feel more like sitting down with some hot TrekSmut and my favorite toy than posting. Not to mention the fact that anything I would've said has usually been said already.

So I guess the jist of it is that while I do see groups of folks here, folks who tend to post a lot and talk up a storm, I don't feel excluded by that. ASCEM feels like a safe place to me, somewhere where I don't have to worry about being cool, where I can just be myself. No one pushes me to think, feel or be a certain way and if I don't feel like talking, I don't have to, people will still listen if I have something to say later. That's nice and kinda rare.

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