The 2023 Fic Deletion Discourse

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Title:	The 2023 Fic Deletion Discourse (the umbrella title used here on Fanlore for the ask: "Do you have any thoughts on authors who take their fic down to publish it as original work?
Creator:	olderthannetfic and a cast of hundreds of Anons
Date(s):	Jan 19, 2023 - February 6, 2023
Medium:
Fandom:
Topic:
External Links:	Older Than Netfic – Do you have any thoughts on authors who take their..., Archived version
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The 2023 Fic Deletion Discourse is a title used here on Fanlore for this discussion.

On January 19, 2023, an anonymous ask was submitted to olderthannetfic's Tumblr blog inquiring about authors who were deleting their fanfic in order to republish it professionally. Over the next 3 weeks, the question spurred a vigorous discussion surrounding the practice, expanding on the reasons why fan writers would delete their fanfic, and covering a wide range of readers reactions to the practice.

Over 200 separate asks were submitted, each drawing dozens of responses. In an effort to capture the complexity of the far ranging discussion, selected comments are included below, arranged thematically.

The Original Ask

Anonymous asked:

Do you have any thoughts on authors who take their fic down to publish it as original work?

Olderthannetfic's initial reply (excerpts): Jerks. Also… honestly… I think it often goes less well than they hope. It depends what kind of fic they wrote in the first place and how much heavy revision they’re willing to do, but I think a lot of those fics end up feeling kind of hollow. Many of the people I’m familiar with doing this wrote coffee shop AU type stories in fandom.

Slice of life is actually pretty hard to write. It still needs to have stakes, just less dramatic ones. It needs to be funny or charming or insightful or something. When we read this stuff in fandom, we’re often already heavily invested in the characters and are filling in a lot about their voices. The fluffy coffee shop may also be playing against a backdrop of sad or dark canon events, adding spice to a fairly bland story.

Take away the fandom element, and what’s left? People who all sound the same doing nothing much? A mildly cozy setting that isn’t even that well described?

Topics Covered in Replies

Converting Fanfic To Professional Works

There was discussion of the difficulties writers face when converting fanfiction to a commercial work, questioning whether it would even be successful.

[Reblog with notes, followed by olderthannetfic's response]: #been thinkin about this kind of thing alot#how much fandom hivemind fills in the blanks#its interesting how ur favourite fic would be reduced to base elements without aspects that make it unique to the fandom its written for

The thing is, even with the amount readers fill in, there are fics where a complete set of relationship development is also in the fic itself without needing to lean on canon too much to make people care, casefics with a full mystery novel plot, coffee shop fics with a vivid and fleshed out shop you just want to bask in aside from liking the characters already, etc.

The sort of writer I think makes the jump easily is someone writing AUs with a lot of plot and little connection to canon or someone writing a tiny ship nobody cares about where they have to show everything about the emotional development. The more one tends to include a lot of side characters and OCs and things that flesh out the world, the better for stepping directly into original writing.

A lot of fic that I think is excellent as fic gets right to the point with two characters I already ship. It’s not a long fic, so we don’t hear a lot about the rest of canon’s cast. There’s some relationship development, but we might be starting what feels like a third of the way in. Even if it’s an AU and we start with the meet cute, there’s still not too much time wasted on getting the reader to care. Characters can be annoying or currently bad people, and we’re confident they deserve the partner and will get their shit together during the fic. We also know how hot they are to us without the author trying to write a non-awful physical description or thinking through all the other things that make them hot.

That’s not a dig. Plenty of these fics I think are genuinely brilliant. I just think we go too far when we say “Better than original!” and “Could be published!” as our default ways of praising them. They’re trying to succeed as fic. That doesn’t always set them up well to succeed as something else.

One anonymous reply argued that pulled to publish fanfic is not annoying and it benefits both writers and readers by exposing the fic to a wider audience:

On people taking their fic down to get it published as an original work: is it really THAT annoying, though? I feel fortunate that so many genuinely great writers choose to put their energy into writing fanfic for free. Seems a bit petty to get peeved off when one in a thousand (or less) decides to try and turn their novel-length fic into an actual novel that could jumpstart a writing career. I wish them good luck. Nothing wrong at all with trying to turn your hobby into something to help pay the bills....Filing off the serial #s and publishing is about trying to reach a totally new audience, and not necessarily one that overlaps much with fanfic readers.

olderthannetfic countered this argument by saying that the process of converting fanfic to commercially viable novels is the same, if not more, work than writing an original novel, and results often in an inferior product. It rarely succeeds:

Yes, it’s fucking annoying!

Workshop your pro novel at your writers’ group where you’re all aspiring authors mutually helping each other. Don’t use fandom for that.

I don’t think it’s morally depraved or anything, but I do think it’s tacky. I also think the resulting novel generally sucks.

If you can write one novel, you can write more than one novel.

Pulling to publish just feels weird to me, like the non-writer view where ideas are precious and rare. I’d understand better if it actually were about time and energy—the things truly in short supply for all creatives—but the revision process to turn a fic original takes a ton of time, and not taking that time results in a crummy product that’s not going to launch a career on its own anyway. (And before someone says “Fifty Shades”, that author’s great talent is for marketing and self promo, skills many, many authors lack.)

I don’t think it’s about making the readers pay to reread at all, but I dislike the practice for other reasons. I wish them all the luck in the world trying to start a writing career, but I don’t think this is the way to do it.

This point was repeated several times: that fanfic does not translate well into commercial writing, that the process is arduous and often without much success given the challenges in today's publishing industry.

[louciferish] On top of that, most people who pull to publish will never actually publish. At best, most will self-publish through Amazon or a vanity press. A much smaller slice of writers will get published through a real indie pub and make a small number of sales. It’s a one in thousands chance that the person will actually have success in querying agents with something that used to be fanfic, and many many many of the manuscripts agents send on submission will still never be sold or published. Most people will pull down their fic and at some point in the process of professional publishing, they will fall out of the stream. And then, the fanfic people loved is gone from the archive , and there is no book to stand in for it.

Pulling to publish is generally a terrible idea, not because it’s unfair to the reader or the people who helped you polish and the beta readers or whatever- it’s because the result usually sucks. The skill of introducing characters in their own world is one not developed in fanfic, therefore it starts off poorly by just missing a bunch of context. Your fanfic usually starts by establishing the differences between canon and the AU in which your fanfic takes, and then you have characters who aren’t the main pairing (lets be real a lot of pulled-to-public fic has a strong romance focus) are sort of floating in the background treated as through the reader is more familiar with them than they actually are. Fixing that takes major reworking of the beginning of the story that a lot of publishers won’t be putting it in the effort to do because they don’t want to put that kind of effort into an already-completed novel for a debut author to probably be released with very little fanfare not generated by the author, and a strong chance that if they criticize too harsh, the author will just take their fic and go of too many changes are made, because they’ve never been through this process before, if they’ve been scouted from fic.

Also, writers focusing on writing original fiction vs repurposed fanfic stand a better chance at market success if they focus on writing for a specific targeted market and work alongside other writers with the same commercial goals:

[olderthannetfic] You’re better off workshopping with people who want to write original for money because they have similar aims and challenges, not because I think there’s a moral problem with having a fandom beta and then selling the work. If you’re capable of writing one story, you’re capable of writing more than one, and the one that starts life aimed at a pro market, even selfpub, will often be more suited for that even if the characters are expies.

Finally, a few fans pointed out that converting fanfiction to profitable fiction, breaks the concept that fandom is community, based on a gift economy:

[smooth-mccrimmonal] Fandom is based on a gift economy. All the betas and advice and brainstorms and comments are gifts and the gift back is a fic that people love. And fandom writers by nature don’t live in a vacuum. Even if every single word is yours, the thoughts, plot bunnies, and headcanons are often communally generated. And even then if you aren’t online at all and you just really love a show and you write a completely unique storyline and the characters are just shadows of those canon selves, you are still participating and drawing from that community. Don’t take a gift and try to make a profit.

A fan writes about when a writer deletes a story that was written as a specific gift as part of a gift exchange:

The only time I've ever been truly upset about a fic being deleted is when it was a gift to me - I hadn't yet started downloading fics so it's my fault, but the author deleted everything they ever wrote in the fandom (over 50 fics) including the gifts to me and other people.

It's a small fandom so it was noticeable in general (and the discord server had a slight meltdown just because it was such a shock, not because they were particularly mad), and when I messaged them to ask for a personal copy, I was blocked in return so yes, I was upset.

However, I still wasn't entitled to that specific fic and I now download fics that I'm either not reading right away or ones that I'd like to re-read. A lot of us in the discord started doing it at that point, because if a BNF could wipe everything from existence, so could everyone else.

Why Do Authors Refuse To Orphan Their Works?

AO3 is unique in that an author can chose to 'orphan' their fanworks, essentially removing their names but allowing the work to continue to exist. This has led some to ask why this option is not used more frequently. The replies ranged from: "authors are not familiar with the option as is it not offered outside of AO3" to "writers are selfish and want to punish readers for lack of appreciation."

[Anonymous] Yes, yes, rage over deleted fics +1, but if I had to hazard a guess, part of the particular hurt+"but why?" might just be from the fact that ao3 is an archive. With built in ways to detach something from you and stop getting notifications on it. So delection (sic) may come across more as stupid (ie. Not know one can orphan fics) or malicious (knowing one can orphan, deleting the fic anyways). Which is unfortunate because there are often good reasons to delete, but the setting makes it seem more harsh.

The concept of orphaning is relatively new to the fandom community, and AO3 is the only fandom platform to date that has built an infrastructure to support it:

I deleted all my fic from all the fandom archives that existed back in the 00s pre-AO3 because I had (stupidly) used my real name and I was losing job opportunities because when people looked me up (on Yahoo), they would find my fanfic.

I am slowly republishing my old fics to AO3 now (under a pseudonym) and realizing what a bad writer I was back then, but I received one of the best comments I have ever gotten in my life on an old story: “This story made me think hard and want to change my life.”

If there had been a way for me to orphan my stories way back when I absolutely would have.

Orphaning can also leave behind stressful reminders which is why some authors chose deletion over orphaning:

I orphan works now but as someone who has deleted in the past: it’s sometimes just hard having a fic up if there are bad memories associated with it or the time during which you wrote it.

Others dislike orphaning because it means giving up control over their fanworks:

I hate orphaning because you never get control of your work back, so when you see that you typed "wss" instead of "was" you just stare at it forever... But closing comments was a godsend. GOODBYE, COMMENTS.

Some authors say they might orphan their fanworks more often if comments could be also deleted, leaving only the fanwork standing:

I've both deleted and orphaned fics, for several reasons, but do think I'd end up orphaning more if authors comments were deleted when you orphaned. If I orphan something, I want only the writing itself to remain, but considering I am the type to reply to all comments and try and foster conversation, that would be a sticking point for me. Small one, and suspect this ask will be hit with people going "lol who tf cares anon it's orphaned" but it has been something I've considered, and in convos people have mentioned feeling similarly that being said, I have about 220 fics at the moment, and have deleted 2 and orphaned 5.

For some authors, orphaning means that their fanworks will continue to exist and that mere existence carries the risk pf shame and embarrassment. Only deletion will work for them:

I think people who delete fic even though they could easily orphan instead, do so because they don't want the thing to exist anymore. Like if they see a particular old fic as a product and a particularly demonstrative Illustration of their "cringe"/misandrist/homophobic/"before-I-worked-through-my-racism" phase, that could be not just embarassing [sic] to keep up but also they truly think it's morally wrong to have written that...

Others point out that authors rarely are that complex in their reasons for deletion so orphaning is too nuanced an option:

[Anonymous points out that some authors ask for feedback but then yank the work after readers had provided the feedback]:

I do get wanting to leave fandoms. But scorched earth is selfish. Maybe thats what someone needs. Idk.

[olderthannetfic's response]: People who want to delete aren’t thinking about any of that.

And other authors make it clear that orphaning would be their last choice, spitefully blaming the readers:

[Anonymous] I've considered deleting some of my works. I don't care if someone else downloaded them, or if they can later be viewed through some mirror website or wayback machine. What I care about is that they're not immediately associated with me and that I can't see them on my Works page. Simple as. I've since decided to just orphan those works, but jesus. I'm glad I didn't see these anons at the time, because I'd be sorely tempted to delete them out of spite.

What Do Authors and Writers Owe Each Other?

As in previous debates, a large portion of the comments center on which group "owes" what to others. There is an expectation that one side should have the power - and right - to demand something from the other.

Examples of "Authors do not owe the readers anything" arguments:

[anubis2701]: I think asks like this really miss the point that…at the end of the day, fanfic authors don’t owe you anything. Not updates, not fic completion, and certainly not to keep a fic up if they don’t want to.

There are a variety of reasons why someone might want to delete a fic, ranging from them not finding it representative of their writing style anymore, falling out of the fandom, being the victim of harassment, just finding something in the work painful or unpleasant, or whatever else might inspire them to get rid of it. Frankly, it doesn’t matter what reason someone sees to delete a fic.

It is not up to you. You are owed nothing.

Another commentator expressed this even more simply:

... [deletion is] not selfish cause it’s not about readers, it’s about writers.

And some even pointed this out emphatically in the Tumblr notes:

#AO3 WAS MADE FOR THE WRITERS NOT FOR THE READERS. YOU ARE GUESTS #AND FANFIC ISN'T WRITTEN /FOR/ YOU IT'S /SHARED WITH/ YOU #THE AUTHOR RETAINS FULL OWNERSHIP. THE FIC DOESN'T BECOME YOURS IF YOU LIKED IT

Deletion to Avoid Engagement

Some fans pointed out that deletion was a tool to reduce engagement - either for the story or for fandom in general:

[r3zuri ] The whole point of deleting a fic is that you won’t receive engagement about it anymore, or at least in my experience it was. I had a longfic that I hadn’t updated in two years and I was sick of getting little “reminder” comments that it existed. Deleting it lifted a weight off my shoulders.

Deletion is Sometimes Rooted in Fear

I ended up mass deleting my fics at one point due to a paranoid episode. I don't think any of them were particularly good, even though I know someone probably liked them. Emotional amnesia has stolen the actual memories of the episode itself, I just remember being frantic and panicked that someone who find them and then find me and hurt me for writing them. In all likelihood that never would've happened, but paranoia in its nature is irrational. For me, it wouldn't have been enough to orphan them, because then I would have no control over them, or even to put them in an anonymous collection, because in my mind someone could still find the account linked to the collection and therefore find me. With my having had that experience, you'll excuse me if you find me lacking in sympathy for those who say you shouldn't delete. Deleting those fics soothed the paranoia. If my being allowed to delete in order to self soothe with some modicum of control means that other people have to also be allowed to delete and proceed to gloat about it on social media, so be it. Most people won't be on either of those extremes. Most people are probably just embarrassed by their older works. Even so, everyone should be allowed to delete, no matter their reason. And you're allowed to be upset. But it's on you to save copies of the fics you loved so dearly, not on the author to give up their freedom to do with their works as they please.

Some forms of fanworks carry the possibility of greater personal exposure. Here one fan discussed podfic:

To add to the 'deletion of works on AO3' thing - I've had to take down podfics before. It's not because I wanted to publish or because I was no longer proud of them, but because I was no longer comfortable having my voice tied to my AO3 profile. (Career reasons. Also, I self-hosted the files, and that cost a fair bit to maintain each year)

Personal risks from family and friends also play a role:

I used to delete a lot to keep my work away from my dad's partner. They would break into my computer and if they found something they didn't like they would use it against me as a reason to isolate me. I had to constantly delete fics and artwork they wouldn't approve of, which was pretty much everything I made because they just didn't like me, and make new accounts. It didn't really help much in hindsight but it did give me some semblance of control over my life at the time.

I do still struggle with a lot of paranoia to this day despite having been out for almost 4 years, but I think I'm getting better at not deleting things and I'm actively sharing my favorite work with my supportive family members.

I know not everyone who deletes fic or accounts has this reason, but I felt like I needed to share why I'm more sympathetic toward people who do. I pretty much assume if someone's deleting something they worked hard on and that they've loved, they've got reasons that it isn't my place to ask about. And even if that's i don't like it anymore, then sure, I hope they can write something they're proud of one day. It's on me if I don't save it, you know?

I have a friend that deleted his entire body of work on ao3 during a mental health crisis. I have extreme sympathy for him and I know how extreme his anxiety is. I'm still sad at the loss of his fics (I don't mention this to him, it feels to me in the same category of rudeness as commenting on an unfinished work asking for the next chapter). He's doing better now and has made a new ao3 account and is posting new works, but I'm hesitant to read & get attached. What if he deletes everything again?

Deletion: I Am Not Worthy

Many authors reported that they deleted because they felt embarrassed by their earlier writing or that they felt their efforts were unrecognized and had fallen into a well of silence and indifference:

All this talk of fic deletion or orphaning has got me thinking back to a multi chapter fic I submitted to AO3 late March of last year.

In the beginning I was proud of it, because it was the first fic I had put up on my page after a year and a half long writers’ block. I used to be so happy that I made something and I was even inspired to write a few shorter fics after that for the same source media.

But as time went on, I started to doubt that story I put on the Archive back in March ‘22.

I started noticing every single flaw it had, without thinking of its merits. (I’m starting to wonder if it had any merits to begin with.)...[snip]

I truly don't know what to do.

I also do not understand why my readers never pointed this story's flaws out to me in comments, when I can see them clear as day.

I've been told to leave it up as a way to show my growth, to move on because what's complete is complete and there's nothing more to be done with that particular project. Most of all, I've been told time and time again not to be too hard on myself, but I don't know any other way to be.

Writing a contrived, cliched, horrible mess of a thing is nothing to be proud of, after all. I'm not a beginner, this isn't my first ever fic, English is my first and only language, and I have read enough books to know and do better.

I have no excuse for writing something so shameful.

...for ppl like me, who get maybe a few kudos and a hundred hits? posting to ao3 feels like screaming into the void sometimes. Like nobody cares. And while I don't plan to delete my own fic (cuz Im still proud of my work), I can sympathize with the writers who do. If nobody cared when I posted, it's hard to even imagine anyone would care if I deleted. Sometimes it's like my fic is the tree falling in the forest with no one to hear it, so it makes no sound. Deletion doesn't feel like it'd make any difference at that point. Anyway, to all the writers who feel like this: i see you and I totally understand how you feel.

On fic deletion: Also in very early '00s, I used to have like, 5 badly written fics when I was literally a Child On The Internet and also a longer one that I had a personal site for that also functioned as a "character shrine" to the series, when updated webshrines were rare. Me realizing my old writing wasn't really great is what made me pull them, but also, like, Purges happened. I lost my entire site in a purge but saved the fic and html - it's all going to be recreated someday. Shit happens!

Many others pointed out that even the smallest tree falling in the forest can make a big noise. The loss of a single story in small fandoms is often felt more keenly:

futureevilscientist replied:

Anon, dude, you couldn’t be more wrong. Most of the fic I mourn was deleted precisely because it was posted in tiny fandoms and received little to no attention.

[gondremark]: If you think you’re a fandom nobody and no one will care or notice if you delete your works, there’s a pretty decent chance you are THE author that just one or two people adore because you’re doing something no one else is. It’s those connections that I really appreciate in fandom. The fics with thousands of kudos I can find again somewhere, it’s the ones with 10 kudos that are gone forever without a trace that I’m most broken up about.

[elendraug]: agreed. the fics I mourn are for rarepairs and ancient fandoms, the stuff nobody else remembers and therefore nobody else could help me find because I don’t even remember enough details at this point to track it down like a very old Gundam Wing fic where Trowa was a civil war ghost for some reason??? I loved it as a kid and can’t find it

Lots of both anons and commenters now saying "oh, I'm sure it's sad when a BNF deletes a wildly popular fic, but no one will notice little old me deleting that silly thing I wrote ages ago".

You're wrong, you're missing the point. Fewer people will notice the loss of a less popular fic, but that doesn't make it any less meaningful to the handful of readers who enjoyed it, and doesn't make it any less important a part of fandom for future historians.

If anything, your fic is probably less popular because it fills a smaller niche; if you're not writing for a rarepair or small fandom, it's likely your writing style or characterization or tone is different in a way that specifically appeals to a small number of readers who can't find it anywhere else.

Your silly little thing from ages ago is important for the very fact that it is tiny and less popular. Even if it's not your best work, even if it's riddled with typos and overall pretty bad. Yes, even that fic, the one you're embarrassed of. It means something to someone. And if it doesn't right now it will mean something to someone who finds it ten or one hundred years from now, and it deserves to exist and be preserved in an archive for that one person who hasn't found it yet.

In response, author jayswing101 wrote:

#ngl i was thinking about deleting all my fics and art tonight #but seeing this is the thing that stopped me #thaank you anon and thank you gracie #the things live another day i guess #(might still orphan the fics at some point but probably won't delete them anymore

I'd just like to chime in with something. More than a few people have said something like how there's a million other fics out there and to not make such a big deal of when one is deleted. Well, to that I can only say: Some of you have never been hopelessly obsessed with hopelessly tiny fandoms, and it shows.

Would Never Delete Again

Some writers do not regret deleting their fic, but would not choose to delete again:

I deleted all but a couple fics in one fandom because of pretty intense harassment/the fandom itself. I was 17, and ended up reaching a breaking point and getting rid of a ton of fics. It wasn’t even me being actively harassed at that moment (I’d been the week before lol), but seeing an uptick of insanity in the fandom. So I deleted a ton, and left the fandom completely. I still haven’t looked back to that one

I’ve since shared copies with people who’ve asked, at least of the ones I still have, and while I don’t regret deleting those ones at all, I don’t think I’d delete again. 17 year old me did archive lock everything, and I’ve kept that on ever since. I’m sure that’s helped me avoid some shit, considering a lot of fandoms. Not many people are willing to harass someone with their me attatced to the message

Not that deleting for harassment was (or I don’t think it was) the subject for a lot of the anons. More that, as someone who has deleted a lot of fics without regret, I wouldn’t do it again. I do download the fics I’ve loved, which helps, and when i do notice something’s been deleted I’ve tried to reach out to the author if they’ve linked a tumblr. Nothing about the fic, more asking if they’re okay. Most ignore, and a couple have been rude, but some authors were super appreciative, and several gave me the fics. One’s a friend now actually. She deleted in a mental health spiral.

Idk. I don’t think there’s a easy solution or something everyone will agree on with this, and people on both sides of the debate are pretty heated. Fandom be fandom (or people be people). I think my “solution” is to download fics, reach out politely if I can/notice something’s gone, and when it comes to my own writing, not delete again. It’s worked for me so far.

And others who deleted sometimes regret and mourn the loss of their creations:

I deleted fics under the perceived notion that my writing was awful and no one actually wanted to read that shit. I wasn't proud of it anymore, it wasn't ever going to be finished, and no previous lovely comments could change this negative outlook I had on my writing. That was the mindset I often had in high school and early college, that everything I wrote was shit.

I've gotten a lot better recently where I'm actually really proud of my writing. And at the very least, I don't fully delete it anymore, I just orphan it. With one exception that was a sequel to my first completed fic in many years. I orphaned the completed fic but deleted the sequel. I think I just felt bad for knowing I would never finish it so I decided it was better to delete the sequel.

Last year I had 2 different people find me on tumblr and ask about the sequel they loved so much (which was rather heartwarming, to say the least). I still had the original doc so I shared it with them. Later that year I decided to go ahead and repost the sequel, but I made it clear I didn't intend to finish it. I had several comments that were really happy to have the sequel back even if they were sad it would never be completed.

I guess this “ask” just goes to the people who delete their fics because they think their writing sucks and/or they think they’ll never finish their work. Please don’t. There are fics and oneshots I’ve deleted that I can never get back that I wish I could. Maybe try orphaning it instead. At the very least, hold on to it somewhere. Cause maybe you’ll find a reader who really misses that fic and just wants to read it one more time. And maybe that reader is yourself.

[otherthannetfic] Sadly, this is really common. Some people remain happy they deleted, but a lot don’t. Back your stuff up! You might want it again some day.

Even orphaning can carry regrets:

[beewaggle] I orphaned my fics way back when. I regret it now, but I’m glad they’re still out there for people to read and enjoy. It’s an alternative if you want to let go of fics but don’t want to delete them.

I've only experienced seeing someone orphan their fics once in a fandom I used to be in a couple of years back. Their last message on their fics was that they're very ill and they don't think they can finish any of their fics so they're orphaning them. A few months later I see one of their fics reuploaded and it's by the same author saying their surgery was a success and they're back on writing fics but couldn't un-orphan their old works. I'm happy for them but too bad about their old works.

Refusing to Delete as a Form of Resistance

Several voices spoke out against deletion saying that giving into harassment and antis was counter productive and only gave room for the harassment to continue:

Regarding the fanwork deletion discussion. I've been struggling with my place on AO3 and fandom and thinking of starting over on a new account but tbh I wouldn't delete or orphan my work IF I do. It's gonna stay right where it is and maybe someone will recognize my writing (doubtful) or I'll feel like connecting with my old account again and put everything together once more. Who knows. In any case I don't want to give antis the satisfaction of deleting anything they may disapprove of.

[monotremer] said: If people just start deleting their fics, then antis win. Stand your ground and don’t let any of your private info be publicly connected to your fic profile. That’s it.

Harassment by antis keeps getting cited as a good reason to delete your fic, but I'm not sure I agree. It's understandable to me why would have to erase their online presence for their own safety or mental health, but if you delete your fic because some antis told you to, then you're just teaching them that being dicks to people online is a viable way to accomplish their goal, which is to scrub the internet of fanworks they don't like. And you'll just encourage them to do the same thing to the next person.

Others caution, that taking a stand is not always feasible:

[megpie71] thing is, the antis do this because they know it works. They know people can be harassed off the internet (right-wingers have known this for decades, and they use it) and they also know the offline consequences for doing it are minimal. Especially if you don’t know who it is harassing you, or there’s too many people to identify clearly. The antis don’t care about the people they’re harassing - they aren’t “real people” to the harassers, just names on the internet. Which means the harassers aren’t going to back down when they hear someone is seriously hurt, or even suicidal as a result of their actions; who cares if a villain character in an RPG gets hurt, after all? I think it really does come down to keeping yourself safe in the face of what the anti and purity-patrol crowds are doing.

Deletion With Advance Notice

Writers who warn their readers that they're going to delete their fic and now would be an excellent time to download/save said fic are good people, and that is my opinion.

What Does Deletion Accomplish?

The answer to the question - what does deletion accomplish? - weighed on several fan's minds. One pointed out that if the goal is to limit access to the fic...well, nothing can be erased once it is posted online.

[anonymous writes] People who habitually delete their old fics don't seem to realise that this disappoints and annoys a lot of people and makes them look bad, without actually accomplishing their goal of removing access to the fic for everyone online.

My bookmarks are full of wayback machine links to deleted fics, and I've got tons of stuff downloaded, too. And less scrupulus [sic] people might just upload the fic elsewhere on their own (unauthorized second party uploads are a major problem with visual art online, but it happens with text as well). I might think a little less of the author for deleting it, or I might feel bad that they think so poorly of their work, but I can still read the fanfic.

Don't post things to the internet if you want to maintain tight control over who has accesses them when and how.

This thought was expanded in the notes:

[futureevilscientist]: I feel like people are falling over themselves to take offense to the “entitlement”, and missing what seems to be the core point: You’re negatively impacting people by deleting your stuff, AND it doesn’t actually really achieve your goal, so you’re kinda doing it for not much more than the short-term illusory relief of cleaning house.

If the question is “should we judge authors who do this? should we judge readers who judge authors for doing this?”, then the fact that deleting often doesn’t achieve the intended benefit for the author is surely relevant in there somewhere.

Oh, and the more people are affected by your deletion, the more likely it is that deleting doesn’t achieve your goal. (I.e. popular fics are invariably backed up somewhere and/or have people willing to share the downloaded PDF with you if you ask around.) That’s pretty… ironic, I guess?

Entitlement and Selfish Actions

The concept that readers were "entitled" or "spoiled" came up frequently. Several commentators drew a parallel from the entitled readers to the emergence of Artificial Intelligence art and writing that many perceive to be a threat to creativity and livelihoods:

[anubis2701]:.... acting like you have any right to get entitled to fic that you’ve put no effort into at all is just childish. And like someone mentioned in the replies, it does ring similar to the issue of AI writing and the entitlement there: at it’s core, you don’t care about the feelings or autonomy of the author behind the work. You only care about your own entertainment.

[Anonymous] I can relate to the grief of losing a fic (you didn't even lose it), but I can't stand this entitled, childish crying. Be fucking glad that author ever let you read it in the first place!

This was equally balanced by claims that writers deleting fanfic were "selfish" or "cruel'. Commentators even went so far as to compare this to destructive performance art or the loss of historical manuscripts:

[justamagpie-ohshiny]" As a *writer*, I am on the side of readers are allowed to be annoyed. It isnt a cookie jar; it feels more like an artist having an exhibition, with free entry, and part way through, deciding to start slashing their art out of the frames and chucking them in the trash. Its their art, they’re entitled(!) to do it, but the viewers, who have made time to see the exhibition and appreciate it, being upset is an entirely understandable reaction.

[robotogato said] @justamagpie-ohshiny off topic but an artist slashing their work right in front of you at an exhibition sounds like an interesting performance piece lmao

[can0n-fodder] Dramatic it may be, but to me as a reader, deleting fics is like a Medieval monk burning a whole beautiful illuminated manuscript bc he messed up a few lines or just wasn't into books-of-hours anymore. The loss down the road gd THE LOSS!

In defense of the claim that authors deleting are selfish, one fan pointed out:

"I'm aware that you/some people will be hurt by my fic being deleted, but I don't care, avoiding embarassment for myself is more important", is "selfish", for some meaning of the word. "Whether or not people will be hurt by my fic being deleted, was NOT part of the considerations around deciding to delete my fic [because I had other, more important reasons to do it], I'm minding my own business and not doing anything out-of-spite", is better described by words other than selfish.

Another commentator felt that the "it's not about you" argument misses an essential point: that those who are deleting fanworks are deliberately ignoring how the deletion impacts others in a community where fanworks are central to the community. And that this choice to ignore the impact, not the deletion itself, is what is being criticized.

Everyone and their dog is responding to the fic deletion thing with "IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU". You can repeat it as often as you like, it won't change the fact that your actions affect other people. Everyone already KNOWS that people who delete are doing it for their own reasons and not thinking about anyone else. that's the entire point, that's the part we're criticizing. Or at least, that's the part I criticize when people do it for stupid reasons, which I can and do have opinions about. No "uncharitable assumptions" about the author's intentions or character are being made when there are plenty of people explaining those reasons in great detail, resulting in a frequently unflattering picture. Yes, I do in fact think people deleting fics when they switch fandoms "just because" is stupid and selfish, regardless of how much it "isn't about me" or how much I never "owned" the fics. Stay mad.

"The author has full rights to their work, including deleting it, and ensuring this unalienable right is an important part of keeping fandom healthy and functional"

2. "Deleting upsets fans and some authors treat that in a way too cavalier manner and disrespect the audience that helped them derive such satisfaction and joy from fanfic in the first place"

The two statements can and should coexist.

I swear, despite how central the community aspect of fanfic is, it's like you just don't give a shit about readers except for when it comes to what readers can do for YOU.

Elfwreck expanded on the concept that the act of removal of fanworks is selfish and it is important to acknowledge the impact of the act on others. And it is equally important to also acknowledging the goals and reasons and the necessity behind the choice to delete:

Deleting fics is selfish.

Posting fics is taking part in a community. The reason to post them, instead of keeping them on your hard drive and maybe emailing them to specific friends, is because you want strangers to look at them. Appreciate them. Maybe give you feedback on them.

Deleting them is saying that those people’s interests are now irrelevant to you.

It’s saying that you have reasons not to seek their views, their appreciation, their comments, and those reasons entirely override any interest they may have in reading.

It’s allowed. It may even be reasonable, depending on circumstances.

But it’s always selfish.....[snip]

There are valid reasons to remove fics. But they are always selfish reasons, placing the author’s interests (or needs, even) ahead of those of the community that supported them.

Removing fics doesn’t have to be sadistic. Doesn’t have to be spiteful. Doesn’t have to be depressively self-destructive. It’s just selfish.

It’s not evil to be selfish. Not trying to be hurtful doesn’t make it not-selfish.

Perhaps as olderthannetfic put it more simply: One can respect an authors choice for choosing deletion, and still be able to criticize that choice without the criticism being entitlement:

Respecting your choice means people let you make it, not that they approve.

Emotional Reasoning

Some fans view the choice to delete fanfic through a personal, emotional lens:

[Anonymous] I can't help but feel a little insulted whenever a fic I like gets deleted because the author thought it wasn't good enough. Like, they posted it and invited me to enjoy it, which I did, and they're telling me I was wrong to have liked it and it's so bad no one else should ever get to enjoy it either?

[Anonymous] Some the replies to the ask about deleted fics are kinda... worded meanly? I get what they're saying as I myself have deleted my works for one reason or another too but some of the additional angry comments on the replies make it feel like people we can't even just feel bad that things are just gone and wish they weren't. Many peoples' works had become a part of mine/someone's memories so I can't help but feel like hoping they just stay where they are where others can still find them, you know?

What the hell is up with people mocking readers for feeling devastated by fic deletion, or talking about it like it was the worst thing ever? Art is all about emotional connection. If you deleted a fic and people are devastated it's gone, then congratulations, you've succeeded. Of course people are upset to find something they loved just gone.

The author's emotions are sometimes seen as leading them into self-harm:

As a creator, the idea of deleting the creation I worked so hard on to stick it to one or two anons I didn't like on an online anonymous forum sounds like it would be my ego's bedrock. Live your life, but why would you destroy your work for short-lived schadenfreude you will definitely come to regret a week after you deleted the fic? All because an anon on here said they're sad when fics are deleted? Is this truly the type of person you want to be, anon? Are you that proud to allow the people you dislike to censor yourself?

These emotional reactions can generate an equal and opposite emotional reaction:

[wittyno] To quote bald Tilda Swinton “it’s not about you”.

People delete shit all the time. I’ve deleted fanfics and I’ll do it again. Sometimes because I’ve written better stuff and I want that stuff to represent me. Sometimes because the old stuff is cringe in a way I can’t get behind. Sometimes just to have it and do a full on rewrite.

It feels so entitled to say “I continually want access to this FREE artwork.” People are not entitled to an artists work. Especially free work. If I was selling a book it be a different conversation. Then, because we exchanged money for goods/services, you would be entitled to what I’ve written. Don’t monetize your fanfiction, kids.

They not saying you were wrong to like it. They are saying they no longer want it on the internet, which is their prerogative.

It’s as if I went to a stranger’s house and they served me wine, and I enjoyed that wine. Then I came back and for some reason that person no longer had the wine I liked so much. And then I threw a fit because they no longer had the wine I liked. Except in this case the stranger spent real time sweat and effort making the wine.

[Anonymous] I had people telling me to kill myself for deleting a fic, ages ago. I turned off anon and they just made disposable tumblr accounts to come onto my blog. One of them compared it to "destroying the works of Shakespeare," which would have been funny and flattering if there hadn't literally been more than one forum thread dedicated to calling me a cunt about it.

Tbh I think this wank is really just yet more "we have to control what fic writers can and can't do by throwing little tantrums about it," stuff, a lot of the time.

You can be annoyed about fics getting deleted, that's normal. I'm also annoyed about that. But a lot of this stuff about how it's insulting to you, or you think less of a writer as a person because they're a coward, or you think they're abrogating their responsibility to a social contract you just made up in your own head... come on, there's no need for that. it's not that personal, and people start to sound pretty unhinged.

[Anonymous] Why do people get so emotional when faced with the fact that authors deleting fics instead of orphaning them is often met with dismay, anger, and judginess? All the judginess in the world won't stop you from actually doing it. If you want to delete, which will upset many people, but don't want to have any uncomfortable guilty feelings about the fact that you'll upset people, tough shit? That's every bit as entitled as demanding that authors should never delete anything ever.

I think what these fic-deletion anons are purposefully ignoring is that...authors are not shocked or annoyed that people are upset when fics get deleted. That much is obvious...[snip]....Ultimately, the one who put the work in gets the final say. That's all there is to it.

Holes in Community Fabric and Fandom History

Some replies focused on the impact that deletion can - and does cause - to the community. Instead of focusing on reader vs authors rights and entitlements, they chose to examine how the removal of fanworks breaks the bonds between fans and creates a loss of a shared history:

Circling around the fic deletion discussion to pull on threads that are bothering me. Deleteing your fic feels aggressive somehow? I think it is because making fanworks and shareing them is an integral part of the transformative fandom community and mass involuntary deletion have wounded the community deeply. Deletion is linked with a community/group trauma. It is why ao3 exists. Thus someone deleteing their work is doing something that echos? shadows? evokes? that hurt.

Maybe if it didn't, deleting one's contribution to the fandom community wouldn't have the same impact for author or community.

We've lost so much over the years. Creators have the right... But that doesn't diminish the grief at the thought of losing another piece of fandom, no matter how small and unimportant a sliver the creator believes it is. Those two things - creator rights & community hurt - both exist; you can't just wipe either of them out.

Several commentators felt that the act of deletion leads creators to treat fellow fans as consumers and not community members:

I think what my own stance on fic deletion boils down to is that I don't consider my readers to be consumers. I consider them to be members of the same community as myself. Delete fic if you really need to, but remember that fic and other fanworks is what ties our communities together, and deleting it isn't taking something fun away from people who may or may not deserve nice things, it's severing ties within a community.

The fic deletion wank would be more of a conversation and less of a mudslinging fest if both sides got it in their heads that posting fanfic to AO3 is offering an invitation to fellow fans, not providing content for consumers.

....you shouldn’t be able to walk into a museum or the library of congress, grab a book off a shelf, and burn it; whether you wrote it or not. The argument is that archival and historical record is more valuable than whatever emotion is bothering the author in that moment. The argument is that the value a work has for its community surpasses the irritation it might have for its maker, years down the road. The argument is that a library should be safe.

Which is why AO3's orphaning option or dark web obscuring is favored over deletion by many:

[kaanbaltlak] IDK, I don't have any conclusions besides the "if you delete your fic you do you, but as a concept and action I'm super against of it (as a reader, as a writer and as someone interested in fandom history who will fight to make a little course at university if possible surrounding the topic) and I'd be better if you orphan them, anonymize them in your own Anonymous collection or put them on a shady hard-to-find website only the Hackers™ will find like some Chinese dōujinshi translators do —it'd also be good to keep this suggestion in consideration: if you put somewhere 'hey I deleted this thing if y'all want a copy just ask me Somewhere™ and I'll pass it to you no problemo'

There was disagreement over what should be historically preserved:

One problem with internet these days is the permanence of things posted online. People can dig through years of social media to find some dumb thing said in youthful ignorance and use it as a weapon. While saving things for posterity might be of interest to future scholars, shouldn’t an author’s choice to remove things from permanence also be respected?"

olderthannetfic replied: Should it?

Genuinely, we will never settle this as a society. If that author is seen as important and it has been a while, we tend to say that we shouldn’t. The less “significant” and the more recent the author, the more we say that we should [respect the author's desire to werase their works].</ref>Older Than Netfic – One problem with internet these days is the..., ^{Archived version} </ref>

Some fans said that is the point of Archive of Our Own, if not to preserve the fanworks? Deletion seems to run counter to AO3's mission statement:

Regardless of that, this conversation has centred on AO3, and AO3 itself is explicit that works posted to the archive should be intended to be permanently hosted

; “[…] : as an Archive whose goal is preservation, we want permanent, nonephemeral content. To the extent that your content is designed to be ephemeral, such as liveblogging episode reactions, it should go on a journaling service and not the Archive.” [×]

So : regardless of the broader context of the wank, I would tend to regard fics posted to the AO3 with the intention of taking them down to be a) missing the point of the platform, and b) definitely a dick move towards everyone involved.

Like, shit happens, obviously, and deleting fic IS sometimes the solution in my view, but you really shouldn’t post works there if you *already know* you intend to delete them.

Others were bewildered by the comparison to historical preservation:

[Anonymous] i can't believe in the space of about a week the deleting fic discourse has gone from "I think deletion is bad because it's upsetting as a reader to lose fics I love" to "deleting fic is bad because you're obstructing the efforts of future historians in understanding a niche internet subculture, and you're like the people who destroyed lost films". how the actual hell did we end up here

And among those fans who mourned the loss of community history, a few may have found possible inspiration to work for more preservation:

[dentarthurdent]: I'm still on the side of "authors can delete fics if they want and your feelings about it aren't their problem," but I also agree there's a certain level of media preservation instinct in me which deleted fics make sad. Ahh, the amount of dead links that I've waded through on old livejournals to find content for my tiny fandom... All this talk has renewed my interest in talking to some of the older folk in the official fanclub about digitally preserving the old ficzine they ran in the 80s/90s.

Fandom is Not a Homeowner's Association

Several fans used capitalism as an analogy for why fan creators should have complete control over the deletion of their fanworks.

One example of a fan arguing for 'fanworks' as products and readers as 'consumers' used the f you don;t like the product, go somewhere else:

People screaming about how "insulted" they are when an author deletes a fic are so funny to me, because they sound exactly like those Karens who are "insulted" when their local coffee shop stops serving their favorite pastry or whatever. Like, I get being sad or disappointed. I'm a reader too, I'm unhappy too when someone deletes a fic I liked. But INSULTED? Come on, people. Chill out.

Do you believe it's personal because somehow, your kudos and comments are "currency" that you "pay" for the lifelong right to access a fic? I'm genuinely puzzled at where the hostility is coming from. If the feeling to you is that you're getting "ripped off" when you don't get a "benefit" from your "kudos support", maybe you're thinking of fanfic in a super transactional way, I'm just saying.

Like, I don't feel insulted or ripped off if my corner store suddenly stops stocking my fav cookie, okay? That would be so weird. I might stop going there, and I might not buy their stuff anymore, but I wouldn't be offended.

If the feeling of "losing a fic" is so abhorrent for you, maybe just stop supporting them??? Like you would if a coffee shop stopped stocking your favorite pastry? Because if that's how you think of writers anyway, just do what you'd do in a commercial setting and vote with your wallet (in this case, your kudos or whatever). Good grief. No need to be insulted.

Olderthannetfic disagreed with this analogy, saying that fandom was not a homeowner's association, telling owners how to remodel (or even whether to demolish) their homes. Instead it allows fan creators the right to destroy historical buildings - but the neighbors will certainly weigh in on their bad taste and destructive impulses:

You guys keep making these dumb analogies.

A much better one is the gorgeous Victorian house down the street from me. Somebody bought it recently and has gutted it down to the studs. I don’t know what kind of remodel they’re doing, but I very much fear they’ll destroy the historical character of the house. I know many in the neighborhood feel similarly.

However, it’s a private residence and not even on a historic place registry. In one sense, it’s none of our business if they remodel it tastelessly or tear it down entirely.

That’s still not a perfect analogy because whomever owns that house now did not build it themselves, so they have less of a moral, artistic right to it, while an author has every moral, artistic right to their own work. But it’s closer to why people feel it’s their business than which cookies the local shop carries.

I’m not insulted when someone deletes things, personally, but I do think it’s a loss to posterity. Yes, even those fics you think are terrible and that you can’t stand to see on your account anymore.....

HOAs are intrusive garbage that tells people what to do when it should be their private business....This is the equivalent of trying to prohibit fic writers from deleting.

But even when we don’t have and don’t want rules interfering with other people’s personal choices, we can still dislike those choices for their effect on the community and on posterity.

Archiving

The use of archival tools - whether simply downloading a copy of a deleted story to your hard drive or adding a website to the Internet Archive was often used to illustrate the futility of fan creators deleting fanworks. And in some cases the existence of these tools and practices were seen by some as threats to the creator's autonomy.

[Anonymous] "It's selfish/entitled to use the wayback machine or download fics" is a funny take.

[Anonymous] If readers need to "respect the wishes of an author who deletes fic", does that meant I'm supposed get rid of my downloaded PDFs if the author chooses to delete? Do I have an ethical obligation to check AO3 to see if the fic is still up before I re-read a beloved PDF? Should I delete my Tumblr posts that rec the fic?

And does the author's reason for deletion change any of this? is it ok to disappointed when an author deletes because a fic wasn't getting enough kudos, but not if they did so in the midst of a metal health breakdown?

This sounds absurd, but it's the logical conclusion from the idea that fic deletion is somehow sacrosanct and that it's somehow wrong and "entitled" of readers to be unhappy when something they like disappears from the internet.

Deletion Through Obscurity

[Anonymous]: I don't really have anything to contribute to the deletion wank but I'm reminded of the time one of my favorite kpop rpf writers made her fics unavailable to read not by deleting them but by putting all of them in an unrevealed collection. I only noticed when I was going through my bookmarks and noticed a bunch of unrevealed fics lol some fics i was able to download and some of them are on the wayback machine but i wasn't able to download the others

[gondremark replied]: Oh, that’s clever. The fic’s deleted for all intents and purposes, but still archived and the author can release it whenever they please. This could be a good solution for people who like to post before a work is finished, too.

Prefer Deletion To WIPS

One fan said they prefer authors who delete fanfiction to those who abandon works in progress:

Fics being deleted will always be a disappointment but I’ll still take that over the WIP I started only to get to the last chapter and run into an A/N of “I’m not getting the amount of kudos/comments I want (there were thousands lol) so comment here and I’ll review ur engagement and message you a link for the rest if u pass muster 😇”. Thanks, Author von Douchebag, but I think I’ll pass

Has Anyone Checked On the Authors Who Are Deleting?

One voice poignantly asked readers to approach deleting authors with questions, curiosity and understanding instead of anger or suspicion:

I’ve never deleted a fic in order to publish (I agree that it would be too much effort and result in a mediocre product) but I have deleted my entire Ao3 account (two years worth of heavy writing) due to a mental breakdown I suffered due to fandom drama. It wasn’t until after I recovered and came back that several people told me how upset they were that my fics were gone; only then did I realize how much folks enjoyed them. There are so many reasons a writer might delete their fic, and it’s so nice when folks approach it with curiosity or understanding as opposed to getting offended that their favorite fic is missing. How about reaching out to the writer to see if they are okay?

Deletion Everywhere

As with other discussions surrounding the practice of deleting fanworks, there seemed to always be a few fan creators who demanded that fans delete the copies they downloaded. This is met - almost universally - with incredulity, resistance and non-compliance.

About deleting and downloading: I once knew an author who deleted all her fics due to most readers not liking the ending of one of them. She also demanded that all her readers deleted their downloaded copies because according to her it was 'stealing'... And then she started messaging the readers she had interacted with in the past, asking why they weren't reading and commenting on her new original fiction. Well, Mary, gues what... She deleted her tumblr and Ao3 soon after, complaining that readers didn't appreciate good writing. And I still have some of her fics downloaded even if I'm not in that fandom anymore, because pettiness can be so satisfying sometimes.

[peppermintquartz] reblogged this from usearki and added: If I did something as mad as that I am definitely possessed

Can We Get Some Stats Please?

One fan wondered if there were any statistics about how often fans pulled their fanfic in order professionally publish:

[Anonymous] Genuinely wondering, is there some idea/way to get data on if deleting fics is more common in certain fandoms than others? like if it's more prevalent- or just more accepted- in some fandom sub cultures? I think this might be the case but I have no data to prove except a vague feeling, so I might be way off.

- Though I do think this is true for "deleting to publish", especially when someone from that fandom actually makes it (I think the reylo fandom might be a good example, as I feel a number of popular authors have made the move, but I'm not sure if it's happened before or after The Love Hypothesis became big. But maybe it's just that it's a big fandom, and for a straight ship, so probably more people found opportunities).

To add my two cents... once it's out in the world, it's not just yours anymore. Having the right to delete it does not mean it's the good choice. Whether you are Lucas and it's the original version of Star Wars or if it's a Pokemon fanfiction. (And deleting to publish is sad for a number of different reasons more, and possibly exploitative to fandom, but I'll leave it there)

[olderthannetfic's reply]: Some fandoms have a whole pipeline for pulling to publish. Reylo is following in Twilight’s footsteps.

I have the impression some of the kpop fandoms are pretty deletion-happy.

I don’t know of any real data on this though.

All Is Dust

Others view deletion as part of natural lifecycle of life and death:

[wittyno] Enjoy what you have while you have it. Because, guess what, one day ao3 will host its last fanfiction. The servers will go down and it will become a relic. As all things must.

TPTB Thoughts

Professionally published authors predictably favor the author's rights to remove content from circulation. But even they draw the line at breaking into homes to retrieve the works they once created and published:

Neil Gaiman: No, I couldn’t do that. I could refuse to sell a book that is out of print to publishers and keep it out of print forever though. I’ve done that. And I could rewrite or revise a book I wasn’t satisfied with and then let the previous version drift out of print, so after a while you could only buy the revised version. I’ve done that too.

And I think that the people who make the art can decide what to do with it, and if they want to take down something they can. They can’t come to your house and delete or remove things you’ve paid money for — but I’m not getting the sense that you’d bought the music, only streamed it. So yes, they can do that.

I do my best to buy music I like. Either get it from Bandcamp, or buy it on vinyl. It’s a way of supporting people making music, but it also means I have music, if the music goes away.

However, unlike fans, professional authors are not woven into a community fabric where participation and partnership are equally shared among the community. Transformative fandom is unique in that fanworks are a dialog between reader and creator, an interactive exercise in shared creativity.