Talk:Kylo Ren/Hux/Archive 2018-2019

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Quotation Missing

Has the quotation describing the history of the Kylux ship been moved to another wiki page? Or has it been replaced with a link? Couldn't find one. While it is a rather long quote, I don't think it should be deleted in its entirety. but open to other opinions. --Auntags (talk) 13:52, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

It looks like it was deleted in User:ZoeAlden's first revision here. Maybe they just forgot to add it back in? I think the quote is valuable, too, and should definitely be kept on this page. It might be good to seek out other opinions and a little more framing might be nice, though. Like, the quote is a great general overview, but is a little light on the details about exactly who was in that "BNF" group of popular kylux writers and which fics exactly they were writing. - Hoopla (talk) 18:29, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

While the long quote for the history will be planned to use as a source, it seemed reasonable to delete the whole thing as the whole quote appeared to have quite a bit of personal feelings when discussing the early days of the fandom. There was a plan to redo the whole section to include a paraphrases of the quote as well as more updated information. The idea was to make it seems more objective, or at least have multiple points of view, to give a more well-rounded history section. - Charliechoc (talk) 16:41, 15 December 2018 (EST)

PPOV includes "personal feelings". Fanlore does not strive for an objective POV. But yes, the section badly needs more updated content so we have set up a section below where you can start adding and editing. MeeDee (talk) 22:29, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

I apologize for my initial edit, I didn't understand that Fanlore tries to include all POVs rather than attempting objectivity. I'm quite new to Fanlore, and I should have read through pertinent policies before beginning to edit, so I apologize for this. I was quite excited to begin editing and contributing, which is a reason why I didn't read through the policies before editing. I appreciate y'all bringing this to my attention, and in the future I will provide justifications/summaries of my edits, as well as trying to adhere better to Fanlore's policies. ZoeAlden

RESOLVED Contested Edit 1:Fandom

OLD As of February 2018, it is the most popular ship in the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy fandom on Archive Of Our Own.

Kylux was initially considered an obscure crack ship, but quickly gained in popularity and overtook Finn/Poe (aka Stormpilot) in popularity.

NEW As of February 2018, kylux is the most popular ship in the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy fandom on Archive Of Our Own. There are 11,660 fanworks in the Armitage Hux/Ben Solo | Kylo Ren tag on Archive of Our Own as of December 14th, 2018. Comparatively, there are 38,325 total fanworks in the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy tag on the Archive as of December 14th, 2018.

Proposal: restore the deleted line with the addition of [cite needed]. If a factual statement lacks support we document it, and do not delete

Sounds good - Charliechoc (talk) 19:57, 15 December 2018 (EST)

Will go ahead and make the proposed edit. MeeDee (talk) 06:04, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Contested Edit 2: Adjacent Ships

Deletion Adam Driver, who plays Kylo Ren, did a parody at Saturday Night Live where Kylo went undercover as Matt the Radar Technician. Fandom jumped on this character, and in a feat of extended crossover, pairs him with Clan Techie, a character Domnhall Gleeson in the 2012 film Dredd.

Proposal: restore the source and context of this pairing, as it is one of many. The inclusion of other alternative pairings now gives a better picture of the fandom pairing diversity

I was wondering if the "and in a feat of extended crossover" could be omitted from the restoration of the context for Techienician? I feel like it could be read as being biased against the kylux fandom. ZoeAlden

When I read it I thought it was a compliment. If you (or others) think it reads as possibly biased, what we'd do is leave it in, then document the different points of view. (Ex: Some feel this was feat of extended crossover, others feel that this characterization of the pairing shows bias against Kylux fandom...... )

For those of us not familiar with Adam Driver's work, it might help explain how these pairings came about. Did the actors/characters appear in the same movie/TV show? In the same skit? How did fandom make the leap to the pairing? Was it an obvious or intuitive paring? Or was it something wildly original and creative?

This also leads me to my next question: what was the first adjacent ship? How was it received? How quickly did the other pairings follow? Did the practice of adjacent ships become widely accepted or was there skepticism? Are there communities/blogs/fanworks of note that showcase (preferably 2-3 for each pairing). Sometimes we try to find the first example of each pairing and the date, type and author/artist.

Finally, have we documented the concept of adjacent ships on Fanlore? We don't have a page for the term. Is this a term that originated from Kylux fandom? Used elsewhere? Considered a positive? Neutral? Negative term? MeeDee (talk) 16:48, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

On the concept of adjacent ships, I hadn't heard the term before. I've just been thinking of them as multifandom ships, but it got me interested.

If you search "adjacent ships" on Ao3 only kylux adjacent pairings show up, and they are tagged as both kylux and the relevant pairing name. It also appears on other sites used by the Kylux fandom and it looks like it did originate there. Maybe someone who's more familiar with dating Tumblr posts can confirm that. It also appears to be cropping up in the DrWho fandom, based on Tumblr blogs and rec posts. May be a term in need of a page but it doesn't appear to be in widespread use (yet). --Auntags (talk) 12:50, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Moving the info re adjacent ships to the main page.MeeDee (talk) 06:21, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

RESOLVED Contested Edit 3:History

Deletion

When kylux began it quickly begame huge, because quality was very high and it was very kinky, and the early quality fics was all written by a group of experienced fandom peeps in their 30s most of whom already knew each other or became quickly friendly because, again, the fandom was really small. There was a few weeks were almost every fic would get hundreds upon hundreds of kudos, posts would get dozen of notes, people would make headcanon posts about fic the popular writers were writing. The intensity was really overwhelming, and popular folks would get a lot of attention. Some of them interacted with their followers (for example, reserve's headcanon fridays) but the followers also latched on the friends of those people and basically raised up the entire circle to BNF-hood just by going into a frenzy. When instead they didn't interact enough with the general fandom they were resented.

To give you an example, I remember when like in spring 2016 reserve made a few posts about hanging out in NYC with some of her kylux fandom friends, most of which she'd already known and had become fandom popular in part because of association with her. I remember people going 'oooh' and 'awww' and #squad goals, why can't I be friends with them, why can't I be them. It was weird. Like, posting about a 'kylux NYC club' definitely felt cliquey, but the response was random weirdos coming into her askbox and ask her if they could organize meet up IRL for the next time they were in New York. It was really A Lot.

Or, don't even let me get started to the obsession hollyhark's Children, Wake Up caused. It was really crazy intense, more than I thought could happen in tumblr fandom in 2016, because it's a level of obsession I'd usually have associated with LJ-era fandom since now it's a lot rarer for a fic or a writer to get that massively popular.

Anyway. A lot of writers who arrived later felt upstaged, which is understandable: they were younger, less experienced and didn't really know that this is how fandom always goes. As usual, they found that the fanon and headcanons prompted by the 'popular circle' had been adopted by the overwhelming majority of canon, found the same five fics in every rec list, the same people reblogged everywhere in their dashes, who kept mostly promoting their friends. I think what really set off all and jealousy is the speed at which it happened: kylux began really picking up steam in earnes in mid-January/early February 2016 and I'd say that creators joining the fandom in April had already missed the boat and found that whatever they did they could never achieve the same level of popularity and readership as those super early writers. There's also the fact that kylux fandom just wouldn't touch WIPs (I know this is not uncommon, but it happened a lot a lot in that fandom) unless they were CWU or got recced left and right. There was definitely the feel that if someone went for a larger effort it would largely be ignored. I remember when all the kylux big bangs fics dropped and they went largely ignored because all people wanted was to see what a handful of popular people had written, then nothing else. (And you can definitely tell the 'less popular writers' were less experienced in how to fandom because half of them didn't redate their Big Bang fics, so.) − That's around the time when the fandom fragmented - there was the Pink Hux thing, the soft kylux thing, the bottom/top discourse - so it largely blew over because the enormous kylux fandom was no longer a thing after splitting up in many sub circles that largely didn't interact with each other. −

Anonymous

Proposal. There is no explanation offered for this deletion. If additional points or view or context are needed, please supply them. See Fanlore's Plural Points of View Policy. The deletion blanks the entire section on the history of this fandom. There is a lot of history that can - and should be - added.MeeDee (talk) 22:34, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

As noted above in the "Quotation Missing" section, two or more fans have plans to rewrite the History section by offering additional POV and updated content. The original quote that was blanked will be restored, subject to edits.MeeDee (talk) 22:34, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

PLEASE ADD REWRITE OF HISTORY SECTION HERE

There has been discourse in the kylux fandom since its beginning, after the release of Star Wars: The Force Awakens in 2015 .

Some of the more well-known fanfiction from the early days includes the Children Wake Up series, which gained popularity due to its extremely high word count during a time in the fandom when there weren’t many long fanfictions to be found. As of late 2018, there are thousands of great fanfiction, fanart, and other forms of fanwork, with many on Archive of Our Own , tumblr & twitter.

As mentioned in the quote above, there was discontent with several well-known blogs sharing each other's work. There have been concerns about fiction many rec lists that share the same ten or so works . Despite all the discourse and feelings of fragmentation, also mentioned in the above quote,the fandom appears to be more connected. There have been numerous fandom events that promote the creation of creative content and allow users to come together to encourage and share each other's work. Some of these events include the Kylux Big Bang/Mini Bang and Huxloween.

---

MeeDee (talk) 18:02, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

1. Is "discourse' being used to refer to contentious discussion, or its more neutral form? (it can be used as either).

2. What is the name of the Kylux Discord group? Its is public or private (invite only)? For private channels we either get permission from the person we're quoting, or we cite the memory/recollection of a participant who was there. Example footnote: "MeeeDee's post to the [Name] Discord channel dated January 2016, quoted with permission" or "Based on [Name of Channel Member who was there and is agreeing to be listed as source] personal recollections of conversations in the [Name] Kylux Discord channel in January 2016."

   -The info was from a private but was discussed sometime ago. I edited it out- charliechoc

3. "As mentioned in the quote above, there was discontent with several well-known blogs sharing each other's work."

I assume the quote you are referring to is the long quote from fail-fandomanon ? I do not think we should start off this paragraph with the quote. Even if it is a valuable first hand recollection and a single perspective summary of Kylux early days, it needs more context. So I'd suggest we start the paragraph:

---

In the early phases of the fandom there were much discontent with how fanworks were recommended and what types of fan fiction gained popularity. New arrivals felt they were being upstaged. By May 2016, fans began blogging their concerns that many fiction rec lists kept sharing the the same ten works over and over.

I’ve also seen that there are generally a very small group of fictions recommended over and over by the same people, in a sort of circle. I have friends I’ve talked to that are so discouraged by the attention only to “popular” fictions with obsessive artwork that they’ve stopped writing. This makes me sad. There are a lot of really talented people out there that no one ever draws a picture for, and no one ever reblogs their stories.

I considered deleting this a few times before I hit post, but honestly, my point is the stories with 4000 kudos and 400 pieces of art don’t define this fandom. There are nearly 3000 works of fiction and hundreds of artists, and when “rec” posts go around that invariably list the same ten, over and over and over, it diminishes everyone else. I’ve talked with folks that are very discouraged by this.

I suppose I might have negative feedback from this, but that’s ok. It’s not about me. I just wish we could branch out and love more folks and give them encouragement and pride. .

Others expressed concern that the limited number of poplar works would result in overly derivative fanon:

Also can I add something? I don’t want there to be a small group of people in the kylux fandom that everyone looks up to. Why? Because then so much work is going to end up derivative of their ideas instead of standing out on its own. Already, I’ve noticed that people characterize Hux and Kylo in ways that seem to crop up over and over but aren’t necessarily supported by canon – it just was used in a popular fanfic. I understand the community taking inspiration from each other but seriously you all should come up with your own ideas based on the canon presentations of these characters! Don’t just write fanfic that makes Hux and Kylo act like they do in every other fanfic. Interpret them your own way. It makes for far better work.

This led to a few suggestions: a 'small fic’ fic rec list: "it’s Friday. I’m going to put together a Fic Rec Friday list of…idk, a dozen one-shots that I really enjoy, and I’m going to make an effort to make sure none of them are big name fics." Another fan wrote: "an art/fic exchange pool for smaller fics that have no artwork? Not like a big-bang. It would be only for fics that have no art at all. Maybe have artists list the type of stuff they like to draw and try to match them to people who have fics like that??? Would anyone be interested in trying to organize that???" It is unclear if any of these ideas took off.

In later years, one fan participant attempted to recap her recollection of the early turmoil:

"When kylux began it quickly begame huge, because quality was very high and it was very kinky, and the early quality fics was all written by a group of experienced fandom peeps in their 30s most of whom already knew each other or became quickly friendly because, again, the fandom was really small. There was a few weeks were almost every fic would get hundreds upon hundreds of kudos, posts would get dozen of notes, people would make headcanon posts about fic the popular writers were writing. The intensity was really overwhelming, and popular folks would get a lot of attention. Some of them interacted with their followers (for example, reserve's headcanon fridays) but the followers also latched on the friends of those people and basically raised up the entire circle to BNF-hood just by going into a frenzy. When instead they didn't interact enough with the general fandom they were resented.

To give you an example, I remember when like in spring 2016 reserve made a few posts about hanging out in NYC with some of her kylux fandom friends, most of which she'd already known and had become fandom popular in part because of association with her. I remember people going 'oooh' and 'awww' and #squad goals, why can't I be friends with them, why can't I be them. It was weird. Like, posting about a 'kylux NYC club' definitely felt cliquey, but the response was random weirdos coming into her askbox and ask her if they could organize meet up IRL for the next time they were in New York. It was really A Lot.

Or, don't even let me get started to the obsession hollyhark's Children, Wake Up caused. It was really crazy intense, more than I thought could happen in tumblr fandom in 2016, because it's a level of obsession I'd usually have associated with LJ-era fandom since now it's a lot rarer for a fic or a writer to get that massively popular.

Anyway. A lot of writers who arrived later felt upstaged, which is understandable: they were younger, less experienced and didn't really know that this is how fandom always goes. As usual, they found that the fanon and headcanons prompted by the 'popular circle' had been adopted by the overwhelming majority of canon, found the same five fics in every rec list, the same people reblogged everywhere in their dashes, who kept mostly promoting their friends. I think what really set off all and jealousy is the speed at which it happened: kylux began really picking up steam in earnes in mid-January/early February 2016 and I'd say that creators joining the fandom in April had already missed the boat and found that whatever they did they could never achieve the same level of popularity and readership as those super early writers. There's also the fact that kylux fandom just wouldn't touch WIPs (I know this is not uncommon, but it happened a lot a lot in that fandom) unless they were CWU or got recced left and right. There was definitely the feel that if someone went for a larger effort it would largely be ignored. I remember when all the kylux big bangs fics dropped and they went largely ignored because all people wanted was to see what a handful of popular people had written, then nothing else. (And you can definitely tell the 'less popular writers' were less experienced in how to fandom because half of them didn't redate their Big Bang fics, so.) − That's around the time when the fandom fragmented - there was the Pink Hux thing, the soft kylux thing, the bottom/top discourse - so it largely blew over because the enormous kylux fandom was no longer a thing after splitting up in many sub circles that largely didn't interact with each other. −" -Anonymous

Despite all the discourse and fragmentation, as illustrated above, by 2018, it seems as though the fandom has become more connected. There are numerous subgroups for people with varying interests, so it can be easy to find and befriend of those who share the same interests.

From another fan in 2018:

".....about 2017 there was a change where the big BNFs weren't the writer's, but the artist's. Jeusus is wanky, but still super popular and inspires AUs. Slowly old BNF's like reserve were overtake by other writers. Flyboys is huge right now. So much so that reserve has complained about the lack of art her fic gets. There's been a lot of moaning about BNF's lately, from BNFs. But unlike the earlier day's it's mostly friends talking to one another and no mass writers meet up of the earlier fandom. It's less cliquey now."

There have also been numerous fandom events that promote the creation of creative content and allow users to come together to encourage and share each other's work. Some of these events include the Kylux Big Bang/Mini Bang and Huxloween.

---

Since it has been over a month and no further objects, I will add the revised text back.MeeDee (talk) 06:03, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Hux on AO3

I changed the line about Hux being the most tagged Sequels character on AO3, because for some time it's no longer relevant (he's on the third place, following Rey and Kylo): another thing is that I think that he never was the most tagged one and he appeared on the first place in the ranking only because people use three different tags for Kylo (Ben Solo | Kylo Ren, Kylo Ren and Ben Solo).

Thanks for correcting that. This fact was copied from a different Fanlore page so I'll change it wherever else it's mentioned. –caes (talk) 18:12, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

RESOLVED Restored fanart links

I've restored the links to the Kylux and Kylux Adjacent Art Tumblr and the Pinterest links that were removed from the page, minus the "notes" about adding more examples, which weren't really needed. Boredbyreality, was there a particular reason you removed these from the page? As a general rule, we don't remove content wholesale from Fanlore pages, as it's important to preserve it as part of fan history. -- enchantedsleeper (talk) 8:46, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Enchantedsleeper I have removed the link to the Jeusus blog as the artist is highly controversial within the fandom and having links to ONLY their blog on the whole fanlore page could be considered strongly insensitive. I have changed the link to lead to the 'Kylux' tumblr tag instead.

Hi Boredbyreality - thank you for your message. On Fanlore we have a policy known as Plural Point of View, which states that rather than trying to represent a single "objective" viewpoint, we represent the diversity of fannish views. What it means in this case is that rather than remove the link, we would give additional context to explain why this blog is controversial in fandom, and also add more links that represent other aspects of the fandom. This way, the page represents a more complete picture of the fandom as a whole.

If you come across other similar situations on other pages, it's absolutely fine to flag it up on the article's Talk page and ask for other editors to help you add other perspectives to the page. However, you should avoid removing or changing the link.

If you have any questions about this, don't hesitate to ask! :3 (Also, did you know that you can type ~~~~ to add a signature to your messages?) -- enchantedsleeper (talk) 20:15, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi enchantedsleeper. I am unsure who added the original link, but it should not have been here in the first place as it isn't representative of the fandom in any way, and could be read as hurtful to many members of the fandom. Substituting it with a link to the general ship tag is more appropriate and represents the fandom better. I am unsure whether you are part of the Kylux fandom yourself, and how relevant this information is to you.

I am only editing the Kylux pages as I have extensive knowledge on the matter, I do not intend to touch anything else on fanlore.

Thanks for the info on signatures. Have a good day :)

Boredbyreality, it is not okay to simply remove things from Fanlore because you don't like them or agree with them. That falls under the practice of hostile editing on the wiki. Fanlore practices a Plural Point of View as stated above. That means that many points of view and opinions are important. It is not for you to decide that "it should not have been there in the first place" nor what is or isn't "representative of the fandom in any way." That is your opinion. Others may feel differently. If you would like to expand on something you feel is "hurtful to many members of the fandom," then give additional context on the page to explain why this blog is controversial in fandom. You can also add more links to the page that you feel represent other aspects of the fandom. --MPH (talk) 21:58, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi, I added links to the section in question before you made this comment. I think the issue is resolved, unless you have any other points to raise? Boredbyreality (talk) 22:40, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, those look great! It looks like the archived link for Jeusus' blog got lost in the process, so I'll add that back in, but you've done a very thorough job finding additional blogs to link, thank you.

Also, you are more than welcome to edit other parts of Fanlore - there's no rule that says editors have to confine themselves to one fandom or only to the fandoms where they have deep knowledge and expertise. Quite the opposite! We value every kind of experience. But it's important to understand that what you see as being a bad reflection of the fandom might not be someone else's view.

Anyway, I've said enough on this, but I hope we'll continue to see your edits around the wiki! It's great that you've decided to contribute to Fanlore. If you have any questions about editing here, you can always leave a message on my talk page. -- enchantedsleeper (talk) 23:32, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

enchantedsleeper The link to Jeusus' blog did not get lost, it's on the list, sixth from the bottom, just under the name 'Jeusus' instead of the header title of their blog. I have used usernames to list all the artists as that is the way they are widely recognized. I am part of the Kylux fandom, hence I know who is a better-known artist within the community, and added the names off the top of my head to expand the article since you were so adamant on keeping that part of it.

Like I have said before, I have no intention whatsoever to edit any articles that aren't related to Kylux as I am not willing to encroach on other fandoms, especially when I have no knowledge of them. It simply wouldn't sit well with me. I wouldn't touch things and try to add or edit articles about them when I do not know what I am doing. You will not see my edits anywhere else on fanlore. Thanks for leaving your contact details, but I highly doubt I will ever use them. It's nice of you though. Have a good day! Boredbyreality (talk) 23:49, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I said "archived link". I meant the copy of the blog link that had been archived in the Wayback Machine (which appears next to the regular link). If you look at the edit I made to the page you will see what I am referring to. I wasn't accusing you of taking the link out so please refrain from jumping to conclusions. -- enchantedsleeper (talk) 7:37, 4 December 2019 (UTC)