Talk:Homestuck

This page is a diaster for a number of reasons.

I was going to add something amusing like: citation needed for this statement. In the future, it may be more productive to describe what is wrong with the page and how you plan to improve it. Also, when we use talk pages we usually sign the discussions so we can track who is talking. You can use two dashes followed by four tildes (sp?) The sig line can also be found in the edit buttons, second from the righ. I like most of the edits and pulled in some names that had been dropped off in the previous round and added them to the section which asked for more names.--MeeDee (talk) 15:35, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

it may be more productive to describe what is wrong with the page and how you plan to improve it. The editor did, though. "it was an unholy, outdated disaster and i made it beter. im going to make it even better. im going to cite shit. i'm going to organize and categorize shit. its gonna be goddamn incredible." It's just that the info was only in the edit summary and not on the talk page. ;-) --Doro (talk) 18:35, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Todo: add more info on /r/homestuck and the Homestuck Discord. Lots of drama, some interactions with Homestuck authors. Some of this info is in the linked 'Several People Are Typing'. Also, there's a PDF of interactions between moderators and Hussie here (link to source), haven't read much of it yet. Some of the other side of this should be on the twitters of the rest of the Homestuck team. Notable figures: makin/makinporing, previous and current admin, and Drew Linky. --DivinerSpirit (talk) 00:43, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't think this page is following PPOV, which is why I flagged it. Also, marking ships as "canon" in Homestuck is a strange choice considering the nature of "canon" in Homestuck is different and the character relationships change a lot throughout the main story and various spinoffs. --Mozaikmage (talk) 22:27, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Any specific complaints re: PPOV? --DivinerSpirit (talk) 20:17, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

I noticed some discussion about this page from Nov 18th (here, though it looks like the issues from the Twitter thread were already edited out, I think. Regardless, it may be that some people feel the shipping section needs more details and perspectives on the shipping. I don't know enough about Homestuck shipping to make any good edits myself, but it may be a good idea to have someone familiar with the shipping to review and revise the shipping section if there really does seem to be a PPOV issue within it. Patchlamb (talk) 19:02, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Wank and Conflicts Section

Can we make plans or a dedicated effort to tackle this? Most of the rest of the page has seen a lot of improvement, but this section is still mostly a mess of brief bullet points and no useful explanation. I'm not familiar enough with most of it to explain from personal experience or research it.

I think the examples need to be sorted into groups (e.g. wank over canon, headcanons, shipping, etc.) so we can start with giving overviews. And the character-specific ones should be moved to the character pages unless they were really widespread.--caes (talk) 20:10, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

It might make sense to just make a separate "Controversies in Homestuck Fandom" page. Many of the one sentence explanations could be expanded into their own full sections. --DivinerSpirit (talk) 04:30, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

If that's true and some of the controversies are big enough, they can have their own pages too, like the ones in the Scandals category Patchlamb (talk) 17:11, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

As far as I know there are no other pages on Fanlore dedicated broadly to controversies in one fandom, but I think there could be something more specific like "Homestuck Fandom and Race" or "TPTB's Involvement with Homestuck Fandom," plus the specific pages for the really big controversies. But my concern right now is that if we transferred these fragments to other pages they would still just sit untouched.--caes (talk) 19:55, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I see now that making a page just for controversies would probably just end up the same as the section. That would make this page look better but I don't know if having it be a separate page would encourage it to be fixed up. Personally I don't feel up to doing the research required for these controversies. Too bad that tumblr is so painful to search through. --DivinerSpirit (talk) 08:32, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

I agree with this! My proposal for organizing the wank currently mentioned on the HS main page is as follows: (moving most of the information to dedicated pages with a short link/summary/mention in a wank section in the main page)

• "Underage Shipping in Homestuck Fandom"
• (as proposed above) "TPTB's Involvement with Homestuck Fandom" (This would cover forum stuff e. g. Bolin, the removal of suggestions, Toblerones, most Huss Stuff like Paradox Space, PEACHY (link to "...Race") and all the retcon stuff, and more I can't think of right now because there was So Much of it.
• My first instinct was to put it all under something like "Homestuck Fandom and Representation" but then again, there was So Much. I'd say that race, disability, and gender/sexuality representationwanks in Homestuck each merit their own page: "Homestuck Fandom and Race," "Gender and Sexuality in Homestuck Fandom," (consolidating Ladystuck-related/sexism wank with all of the other stuff about LGBT representation) and "Homestuck Fandom and Disability."
• Adding a section to the mainpage for "Outside Reputation," which would cover Homestuck at IRL cons, Let Me Tell You About Homestuck etc.
• The Whole Kickstarter Thing deserves its own page. As you can see, I don't have a working title. I also have vague hypothetical concerns about, because here's the thing—most of the accusations/versions of events Gio covered, Hussie and co. have simply said nothing about. We can't write an article that's basically just Gio's essay again, but there really isn't a lot of other coverage of the incident(s) out there. In fact, one of the main accusations Gio leveled in their piece was a lack of communication with backers from Hussie, which is objectively true. Also, cards on the table, I believe Gio's account, personally; I think the various research and proof amassed seems persuasive, but I am committed to being neutral for the wiki and putting aside personal feelings. Still, I think I've identified an objective difficulty in covering this incident?
• I admit I don't really know much about the official Discord/subreddit mod thing, but it probably deserves its own page. To be written by someone other than me.

Obviously this roadmap I've proposed is kind of an undertaking. I'm just putting it out there, though sadly I personally can't commit to any kind of schedule for getting it done; I am working on a Vriscourse section, though. I also think that probably the mainpage needs to be reorganized, but we could leave that until after we have a nice group of pages set up to link/move information to. --Vinceren (talk) 19:08, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Citation Needed Thought

I was just checking to see if I could do any digging to help add references and remove some citation needed tags, and was looking into the "threads were posted regularly to the MSPA Forum complaining about the lack of interactivity and the fact that the story was now going downhill" that needed a citation. The earliest captures of the forum, and its general thread section, are early 2011, which did capture the thread topics of many 2010 and 2011 threads. I even tried going to 2012, which of course still had some old 2010-2011 threads present. As far as I could see, at least from these captures, there weren't any clear threads about Homestuck "going downhill" right after the suggestions box was locked. It's possible that there could have been replies to threads somewhere discussing it, or a thread I missed. But most threads at the start of 2011 that were still around from 2010 were pretty general threads, none about the suggestions box. If I and others can't find any citation to back up that the suggestions box removal caused numerous negative threads, perhaps we can remove that statement and the citation needed tag along with it? Patchlamb (talk) 23:45, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

PPOV

I see that some of the PPOV concerns discussed above (namely the editorializing in the shipping section) have been addressed, but are there any other specific places people would want to be fixed before removing that banner?

A few points:

• The Fandom section intro could use some citations or more neutral language.
• Fandom History could really use more sources, especially for "growth" assertions, and more than one person's "full definitive history of the Homestuck fandom"— I think there've been a fair few.
• Common Themes in Fanwork isn't much.
• Comics and Fanventures could use links.
• Make Fanfiction less of a rec list and more informative. For example, mention Serendipity Gospel's relationship to Gamrezi canon and wank, mention BONES OF BLACK MARROW's extensive coding as part of a fandom with an intense CSS game, meriting one of only two custom public work skins on AO3, that kind of thing. Also link things up.
• Citations for Cosplay section.

(The Wank section already has a discussion section, and I'll take my discussion of that part over there.)

--Vinceren (talk) 02:10, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

I would agree with this. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 15:39, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Worked on this:

• Removed some editorializing cruft from Fandom section intro, added some citations
• Split off "memes" section
• Slightly expanded chumHandles paragraph
• Also did some more extraordinarily minor shit (linked up parser games wikipedia etc)

--Vinceren (talk) 19:06, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Worked on this some more:

• Added a few more links to Homestuck fandom histories to "Further reading," minor formatting cleanup aka organized in chronological order because why not (seriously, if there's a reason why not, let me know and I'll fix it)
• Moved homestuck.net to "Communities etc"
• The ("Fandom History") claim "People outside the Homestuck fandom have sometimes been known to be annoyed by the frequency and over-enthusiasm of some Homestuck fans. For example, the many people who commented negatively on the fandom in fandomsecrets during spring/summer 2011)" sounded fairly specific and I've been trying to find a citation, but most of the images on fandomsecrets are dead, and I haven't been able to find any support. (I did manage to dig up a few surviving secrets I'll probably cite for Vriscourse, but nothing along the lines of "Homestuck fans are too enthusiastic and unavoidable.") I'll keep looking for more citations for the first part, but I'm going to axe the specific fandomsecrets bit.
• Side note, where would be a good place to go into "relationship with the Hetalia fandom"? ...Is that its own article?

--Vinceren (talk) 22:16, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Vinceren, for working on this! It seems like a lot of work has been done to address the PPOV issues on this page, and I think it's good to allow these flags to be resolved and not just have them hang around indefinitely. I've changed it to a Template:Discussion flag because I think it's still a good idea to check the Talk page and see what discussions have already been started before making significant edits, though I'm open to thoughts on this. --enchantedsleeper (talk) 22:27, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Character Occupations

Less important question: what should we be listing character occupations as on their individual pages? Or should we just leave it blank? "Gamer"? "Child"? "God"? "Furry"? --Vinceren (talk) 20:27, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

It's okay to leave it blank. --MPH (talk) 23:19, 6 May 2022 (UTC)