Talk:Fatphobia in Fandom

new topic re tags on AO3

Randomly stumbled across this page & skimmed it - do you think we should include a section on the "Chubby X" tags on AO3 - whether or not the character is canonically fat - as a sort of alternative to fatphobia? Joanna R (talk) 14:47, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

never heard of Chubby X, what would that Joanna R be? --Ellakbhesse (talk) 21:03, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

That is a shorthand that probably doesn’t translate well, sorry! I am referring to tags where a character is chubby, like Chubby Aziraphale (Good Omens) for characters that are canonically fat to some degree, or Chubby Draco Malfoy for those who aren’t, there are tags like that for a variety of characters. Joanna R (talk) 21:07, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I love Chubby!Aziraphale, his grace is his cuteness. I understand your point and I think we should address it, because it's obvious that there are people using the tag to address fatphobia, either fighting it or doing it -- Ellakbhesse (talk) 22:56, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

article needs work

This article needs a lot of work. I'm going to try to tackle some of it when I have the bandwidth, but here are some big issues and omissions I've noted

• Uses the words "overweight" and "obese" in the first sentence and throughout, which are medical terms that dehumanize fat people. I will bring in some sources for that once I've had a second to pull a few off my shelves. There's a reason academic literature about anti-fatness has been putting "obesity" in scarequotes for years.
• Assertions such as this: "Others, however, will take any imperfect portrayal of a plus-sized character as a microaggression and apply the worst bad faith takes to it." are presented at face value with no room for other interpretations - such as that, perhaps, some such instances actually are microaggressions. They also seem to imply that fatphobia is not a legitimate form of oppression, which, again, I can bring in sources to refute if necessary. Serious PPOV problem.
• "In summation, this is a difficult topic to discuss online, especially in fandom spaces." kind of feels like it's just there to shut down more serious discussions?
• The article's missing the entire history of fat activism and fat liberation and its relationship to fans and fandom. Some topics that could be brought in on that front:
  • Fatshionista and OOTD on LJ, which were popular with a lot of fans in the 00s and which were a gateway for many to the wider fat acceptance movmement
  • Fans who are also fat activists, fat activist discussions in fandom spaces - I remember a lot of the latter on lol_meme back in the day for example
• The idea that "drawing of plus-sized characters as thin is a massive taboo" across all fandom spaces is honestly laughable. Again, PPOV issue.
• Nothing on the dearth of fat characters in the vast majority of canons and how that plays into fandom trends or fandom experiences among fat people
• Fatphobia and cons - lots of cons aren't accessible to larger bodies, just like lots of public spaces aren't in general
• Fat characters that do exist tending to get less fannish attention would be a worthwhile thing to touch on, as are phenomena like Hot Fuzz as a perennial Yuletide fandom that nobody ever writes porn for, which I've seen some (fat) fans speculate is related to Danny being a fat man
• What about things like fandom being dismissed as "a bunch of fat ugly lesbians" in general?

Other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I'd like to make this article a lot better. -- Malcontent (talk) 14:26, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Hey Malcontent, thank you so much for bringing this up. That first point is my fault when I initially created the page two years ago. At the time, I was probably trying to emphasise society's designation and use of the words 'obese' and 'overweight', but you're absolutely right there and it should be changed. It's probably set a precedent for other editors for the rest of the page too, so I apologise. A definite oversight from my own thin privilege.

Your second and third points were things I'd noticed back when the edits had been made, but through one thing or another, primarily lack of spoons, I never got around to addressing it. Those aren't the only lines either. This one: Assuming anyone who's not stick-thin does nothing but sit at home and pig out on fattening foods even if their lifestyle is the opposite seems to ascribe a moral position on the part of the person who is fat because of food consumption and lack of exercise. That, and the language used, are an absolute no-no. Ironically, the Fatphobia in Fandom page has a fatphobia issue. I probably should've expected that, given how much fatphobia is still a socially acceptable form of bigotry to engage in whether consiously or not, and watched the page more carefully.

I'd love more stuff about fat liberation and its relationship with fandom. I have a habit of creating similiar pages, fully intending on eventually at least starting on those kinds of topics to get things moving and then not. The Youth Liberation header on the Ageism in Fandom page has been there for two years. Think the best I've managed is the Assimilation vs. Liberation header on the Queer Fandom page, and that's missing a fair bit. Now it's been brought up again, I'll try and find some stuff, but I'm limited in what I can do. This is why Fanlore needs to be better at attracting people in, and seeing this kinda thing is inevitably going to put folks off.

I also agree with your other points. As it stands the page very much feels like simply listing characters rather than anything much more indepth. And that's a shame, even without its other problems. -- OfMonstersAndWerewolves (talk) 16:17, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Hey OfMonstersAndWerewolves! Thanks for your thoughtfulness (and for taking my thoughts seriously), and honestly, no worries about the phrasing from when you created the page. I get that it's a tricky thing to try to navigate from the outside, and I really do appreciate you having made the page at all. FWIW, I also apologize if my tone earlier came off as a bit harsh - I was frustrated and trying to get thoughts down before they left my brain. (I was also a bit worried someone might challenge me if I just edited out the language issues without justifying myself on the Talk page first, and it's a relief to know now that that won't be the case. <3)

I know what you mean about creating pages with the intent of coming back to add things and then running into the issue of how many spoons it requires to do so. I definitely plan to try to tackle some of the issues on this page too, at least where I can, but I'm sure I'm going to run into that same low-spoons problem eventually... It really is tricky when Fanlore doesn't attract many new editors in, I hear you. -- Malcontent (talk) 16:31, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Oddly enough I was planning on starting a thread like this sometime soon. I'm glad you beat me to the bunch, Malcontent. I agree that the issues you've raised ought to be addressed. What bothers me most about the current state of this article is that it lumps discussion of fat inclusivity under coverage of fatphobia. I don't believe comparable articles follow this structure. Trans Characters in Fandom and Transfic are their own articles. They aren't lumped under Transphobia in Fandom. Similarly, Homophobia in Fandom exists separately from all the articles about gay and lesbian tropes, gay and lesbian fan communities, etc. I understand that the disparity with the treatment of fatphobia/fat inclusivity is probably an unintended oversight. But it functionally serves to reify the notion that fatphobia is the "natural" state while fat inclusivity is an exception or aberration. Night Rain (talk) 18:04, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Ooh, I hadn't even thought about that issue but you're right - that stuff should definitely be split into a different article, or multiple different articles (fat activism in fandom? fat characters?). -- Malcontent (talk) 17:07, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Can I also mention how the few stories about fat characters that make it into mainstream media seem to invariably center on their fatness? *cut out rant about Shrill and the twee pool party scene that still makes me irrationally angry* Night Rain (talk) 18:35, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes! This drives me up the wall. Not that I've never liked media that's about fatness (I loved Huge the TV show way back in the day, my it rest in peace, and My Mad Fat Diary was also pretty meaningful for me when it was airing) but at a certain point I just feel like, man, can't fat characters just exist please? Can't fat main characters just exist and be fat? -- Malcontent (talk) 17:07, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

YES. I'm all for body positivity, but it seems fat main characters exist in only two varieties: the outcast who goes on a diet and loses weight to be accepted by their peers or the outspoken walking billboard for fat acceptance who knocks down all adversity and wins the day by schooling those damn skinny diet fanatics. Just. Let a fat main character be fat and their personality be defined by other things. Sj2014 (talk) 01:42, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Example quotes/links that may be of use on this page

The horrible DraftTrek Interview with David Gerrold. MPH 17:24, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Splitting Off Fat Inclusivity

Night Rain pointed out above that the discussion of fat inclusivity on this page shouldn't be lumped under an article in fatphobia, and I don't want that point to get lost. What would be a good name for another article (or articles) about that content? Would something like Fat Characters in Fandom work, similar to Trans Characters in Fandom? (And then maybe Fat Activism and Fandom for the proposed fat activism additions?) -- Malcontent (talk) 14:49, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

This is a more clear way to phrase what I was vaguely trying to indicate with this topic earlier on this Talk page, i.e. that there’s definitely fanworks being actively fat-inclusive/fat-positive re characters who are canonically all sizes. Joanna R (talk) 23:07, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Tone

There's still a big problem with the way this page is worded in several places and the tone feeling quite defensive towards the fans accused of fatphobia rather than fat fans calling out fatphobia. It's not to say that unfair/unnuanced accusations don't occur, but the same could be said for any form of oppression/bigotry we have pages for, and yet I wouldn't say those have nearly as much of an issue with a defensive tone as this one does. It's bordering on dismissive, as though fatphobia isn't a legitimate problem in the way that, say, homophobia or racism are. -- OfMonstersAndWerewolves (talk) 11:38, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Why just focus on fat?

Fatphobia is just another form of body shaming, which is a wider issue, and certain other types of body shaming are worth discussing:

• Women who are harassed for having big breasts, fictional women who are dismissed as slutty eye candy for having big breasts even if they're anything but that
• Small-breasted women being called ugly, mannish, or "loli bait"
• Short characters being called "child-coded" and accusing people who ship them with anyone taller of being a pedophile (i.e. the Uzaki-chan discourse on Tumblr)
• Muscular women being called "mannish"
• Thin people being called "anorexic" (yes, skinny shaming exists)

I think we need to either adjust the page to discuss body shaming as a whole or at least make a new one for it.

Definitely open to having a separate body shaming page for wider body shaming in fandom, but the reason we're focusing on fat folk is because the page is about specifically fatphobia and it's interactions with fandom. As to the point about skinny shaming, whilst it does happen, it's not a systemic issue and it's a false equivalance to equate it to fatphobia, which has wider societal consequences in everything from employment to housing, from education to healthcare. I as a thin person on the other hand am not oppressed for being thin. I still hold thin privilege regardless as to whether I'm skinny shamed or not. -- OfMonstersAndWerewolves (talk) 11:29, 26 June 2024 (UTC)