Talk:The Sentinel

"Together, they fight crime! (and live together)" Hee. You are super cute :) -Melina 04:08, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

sugoi! as the yaoi fangirl says

D! Indeed. It's a very informative entry, but not overwhelming (I have no clue whatsoever about sentinel fandom). I allowed myself to add internal linkage and move the 'Archives' subheader one level up, because for a noob like me, that header was too inconspicuous.

Oh, good, I was wondering about that subhead -- it looked too inconspicuous to me, too, but I wasn't sure if I was just too used to always-bold subheads. Thanks! (and hee, Melina) --Arduinna 20:29, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Domestic Discipline is an actual, honest to God, nontrivial subset of fanfic here? And they call it gen? Oh my god, I don't know anything about you, Sentinel fandom, but I think I'm in love. Or ded from lulz. Fannish tropes are definitely something that should be mentioned on more fandom pages. --Etothepii 06:56, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, yes it is. I don't know if or where it's still being written, but for a couple of years there, at least, it was a pretty visible subset. I think eventually the people interested in it went off to their own list, because the rest of the slash fandom couldn't let it go. If they'd called it kink and been done with it, it wouldn't have gotten nearly so much attention from the rest of the fandom. *g* --Arduinna 07:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it would be noteworthy to mention the CL Archives policies about the more peculiar "gen" TS genres, i.e. their policy pages about DD and "intense bonding" stories? I mean, I think TS is the only fandom I've been in where a gen archive had to clarify that it wouldn't archive "stories in which the characters remove key articles of clothing or physically "bond" in a manner that implies near-sexual content. Specific examples of this would include (but are not limited to) total nakedness of either/both characters, touching/physical contact over private areas of the body, sensations which could be construed as an orgasm, and mention of implied sexual attraction between characters of the same sex."[1] --Ratcreature 08:42, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Ratcreature, that would be relevant like CRAAAZY, because it tells me (as an outsider) *such* interesting things about the fandom. PLEASE add this! It's stuff like this that shows the uniqueness of a fandom. (I am so very amused! But in a good way :D)--lian 11:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it was. One of the few genres that squicked me, because it also had a sizable subsection that deaged Blair and then posted sort of opinion tracts on how "spanking" was beneficial for child rearing as fanfic stories.--Ratcreature 08:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

amicably split?

I'm not sure that was universal. It's been a while since then, and I was myself into gen and slash, but I think I rembember that one of the reasons the CascadeTimes list was formed in October 1998 was that some fans weren't too thrilled about how slash friendly senfic was at the time, e.g. people referring to and reccing slash stories when they fit into the discussion. And that as a reaction their list rules (website version) said: "Also, since this is an established "gen" list, there are to be no references, stated or implied, to slash or preslash, nor are there to be any slash recommendations. If you are a writer whose website houses both gen and slash, you may state this when inviting listmembers to visit your site (example: "Warning: this site contains slash as well as gen stories."). The purpose of this rule is to avoid slashy conversations or innuendo."

I think another reason was the ongoing fanfic-crit kerfuffle, and it differs in that from Senfic as well, but I think the "amicably" should probably be preceeded by a "mostly" or some other modifier weakening it slightly. And maybe someone with a better memory than me fill in about CT's formation.--Ratcreature 08:23, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, this is so cool to find out. I was never directly involved in the gen side of things, so I just knew what came filtered through my particular set of friends who were into gen as well. You're totally right; I'll adjust the entry. Thanks! --Arduinna 05:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Early History

Didn't Senad split off from Virgule too? Because Virgule was full of the mean girls who believed in concrit and reviewed zines? --rache 04:48, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Huh -- I have no idea. I'm not sure I was on Virgule at the time, and I didn't join Senad until a few weeks after it was formed out of the email loop off Senfic. James never had any particular objection to critical discussion, though, and she was one of the driving forces behind early Senad. (It didn't go all niceness-trumps-all until a couple of years later, after James had handed it off entirely to AnnT.) Hopefully at some point James will come along and fill in some of the details! --Arduinna 05:40, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty fuzzy about the timing of all of this myself, and I may have a lot of things conflated in my brain. Maybe it was just an announcement that got posted to Virgule by AnnT that I'm remembering, not the formation of the list itself. --rache 05:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Cascade

The scene change label thing in the pilot is Casade, Washington, and I'm pretty sure dialogue refers to the place as Cascade as well. I'm confused at the Notes about Cascade section talking about Seattle. -- Kdcat 22:30, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I've heard the name change trivia as well, but that it was changed before airing the pilot. the IMDB says in its trivia section:"The series was originally intended to be set in Seattle, but city officials asked the producers to change so as to not give their town a reputation as a crime scene. Thus, the fictional city of Cascade came into being. The only remnant of Seattle was an undeleted reference to the Seattle Supersonics in the pilot episode. The Cascade basketball team became the Jaguars in later episodes."[2]--Ratcreature 22:43, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

mailing lists

Does anyone else remember "The Raft" ML? I lost some of my old email a few computers ago, but I vaguely remember that some really influential meta posts that were quoted and reposted originated there, like the one "No More Sentinel?" by Kaz that replies to the "all Sentinel ideas have been written" round of discussions that would pop up periodically by listing all the things fanfic hasn't explored yet, I remember it kind of like a long manifesto? It was a really cool post.--Ratcreature 23:43, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, wow, The Raft! I was never on it, but it was definitely an influential list. And damn, I wish I hadn't had to purge so much email over the years, I don't think I've got copies of that anywhere. *curses tiny hard drives* --Arduinna 00:55, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I've always horded email, unfortunately I was bad about backup during my early fandom involvement and Windows ate one of my harddisks. I switched to Linux not long after... I wasn't on The Raft when the original post was made I think I jointed later, but I got it reposted I think two times at least, once on Senfic, once on Rainier maybe... actually I think I still have the copy from Senfic...yes, it was reposted there with permission on June 23, 1999, but that email just says it was originally posted to the Raft, not when that post was made.--Ratcreature 01:15, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, was senfic really the first Sentinel list? I thought The Sentinel General Interest List mailing list was older. I think that was the list that later became Sentries? The first WBMachine archived version of Nightowl's Nest mailing list page (WBM link from May 97, no creation date) only list that ML, the next archived on August 97, update date from June 97 then lists Senfic as well.--Ratcreature 02:43, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

internal contradiction?

Right now the article says that "The first fanfic posted in the fandom, Sacrifice, was posted July 1996 by Laura Schomberg." and I just clicked that story and in it Jim refers to Blair as his guide (albeit only two times as a title and one of that in air quotes), and further down the article says "The first story to create the "guide" as a role, thus launching a fanon so pervasive that few people even realize it's fanon, was Lynna Bright's Sanctuary (1996)". Obviously if Lynna Bright created the guide as a title rather than using it as a verb like the show in her fic Sanctuary, Laura Schomberg fic can't have been earlier, and vice versa, if Sacrifice was the first TS fic and thus earlier than Sanctuary, then using "guide" for Blair's job was insta-fanon, because it is done in that story.--Ratcreature 07:17, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I think I've got the timeline figured out now. "Guide" was used in canon as a role in episode 7 of the first season. Shall fix.--Raine Wynd 18:37, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

right, yes, Brackett used it as a noun once in Rogue. Maybe the history section of the article as a whole could be consolidated somehow, so that the timeline of how TS fandom grew and unfolded would become clearer?--Ratcreature 18:45, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

moving author archive site list to a subpage?

I think maybe it would read better if the main page just had the info that in TS as a late 90s fandom personal archives for just a few authors or single author pages were very common, give a few really important/large ones, and then put the bulk of the list, maybe expanded with current sites and such to a subpage akin to community lists being subpages in fandoms with a ton of LJ communities.--RatCreature 22:40, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Also, the list of pages is far from complete. For more see for example this old listing for Sentinel in the Fan Fiction Directory. --Doro 23:24, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Will do. I think a few high-profile geocities sites could be mentioned on the main page, but this isn't my fandom, so I leave that to someone else.--æthel 02:38, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I've done what I could. Is this what you had in mind?--æthel 06:13, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! Looks good. :) Although I do find the name of the subpage a bit restrictive. Is there a reason why we shouldn't list Sentinel fansites that weren't hosted at GeoCities? If not, the subpage should be renamed The Sentinel/Fansites so that other Sentinel fansites can be added. --Doro 11:42, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah. Only please with an E(!). This fandom is not spelled with an A. (I just don't want anyone to accidentally click that or anything.)--RatCreature 12:51, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

As long as the Geocities sites are separated into their own section or somehow identified, other sites could be added to the subpage, but do you want to have an exhaustive list of random personal fansites? The only reason for listing as many Geocities sites as possible is that the domain is offline and there's no way to access these sites without knowing the URLs. If there's a long list of defunct Sentinel fansites hosted elsewhere, it might be useful to list, but we don't necessarily need lots of current fansites--just popular ones. And those should be mentioned on the main page. --æthel 14:57, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Why should GeoCities sites get special treatment? That makes no sense to me. Fansites disappear all the time (which is even more reason to link them while they are still there, so that other people later can still find them) and just linking fansites because they happened to be hosted at GeoCities privileges them for no reason I can see (Geocities sites are a random list of personal fansites, not just popular ones). In fact, I linked the old Fanfic Directory page and not a more current version or a different link list to make finding those lost pages easier (remember the great Tripod purge in 2001?). In addition to that, only linking sites after they have disappeared doesn't seem to reflect what we are doing with other fandom pages where we link every community and archive for a given fandom we can find. --Doro 16:15, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I think lists like that show the shape of the fandom, whether that's a bunch of half-defunct speciality comms where the last post was two years ago, because Hedwig/Pig shipping turned out to be not the most popular special interest after all, or personal archives. It makes sense to put only major fandom locations on the main page, but lists on subpages are a place to be as comprehensive as possible. I mean, the whole approach of this wiki seems to be a completist one (mostly restrained by practicalities such as missing fanpower) otherwise there would be no more reason to list every fanzine we find, even if it was some obscure handwritten(!) Klingon Mary Sue novel (I still can't believe that found its way on the internet), than to list every fansite.--RatCreature 16:46, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, well I was thinking about the needs of the GeoCities Rescue Project rather than that of the fandom. Upon reflection, I guess I could create a subpage of the GeoCities page to highlight geocities fansites and leave the fandom pages to sort things differently.--æthel 18:28, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I think having the geocities lists be a subpage there makes much more sense than single out geocities pages for every fandom. Especially as there are also mixed fandom geocities rescues.--RatCreature 18:41, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I've created GeoCities/Fansites and copied stuff there. A few other fandoms had geocities lists on their main pages as well; I've copied those, too, but haven't rearranged the original lists. I'm thinking these geocities lists should either be moved to subpages or replaced with links to the GeoCities subpage. Since there aren't any non-geocities links there right now, it feels a little weird for me, for example, to start a Starsky & Hutch/Fansites page. Any volunteers?--æthel 23:41, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think that would work better. (Also, Klingon Mary Sue novel! *Hee*) --Doro 18:58, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I admit the Mary Sue bit is conjecture on my part after I followed the URL that was mentioned with the covers (b/c I was curious that anyone would distribute handwritten zines) and that blog talked about how they knew the author who liked to costume as a Klingon warrior, and the zines' main character (judging from her being on all the covers is a female Klingon...--RatCreature 19:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Vixeotapes

That point about VHS videos is so true! A local friend and zine editor reluctantly asked to see some episodes after I described the show (a cop and a teacher, some stuff about survival in the jungle, and heightened senses...and they share a loft in the Pacific Northwest) so I loaned her our videotapes. Later she showed us a zine and said "This is your fault!" Lol. But that was how shows spread, back then. (I didn't like Blair's hair. It didn't suit him, in my opinion. I have mostly read Sentinel and SG1 stories-- there were a lot of them around.)

Pcdfanwriter (talk) 07:12, 1 September 2020 (UTC)