Talk:Reader-Insert
Self Insertion and Reader Insert
How to combine or reference with Self Insertion? --MPH (talk) 22:13, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
- I added links. They aren't the same: self insertion inserts the author, but reader-insert inserts the reader.--æþel (talk) 19:20, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
What's the source for reader-inserts starting in Hetalia? FFA says no way that's true, but also isn't very specific.[1]--aethel (talk) 17:04, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
- As someone who came to fandom via Quizilla reader-insert fics in 2003 or 2004, I also don't think that's true. The problem is that they weren't called "reader-insert" fics in those days, so the term originated in fandom at some point but the concept was around long before it. I'm thinking of rewriting that section to reflect this. --enchantedsleeper (talk) 12:13, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
There was a long thread on Tumblr of people complaining that reader-inserts often assume the reader is white/skinny/etc but I can't find it now. Would be good to include under Criticism. --Assassin J (talk) 18:41, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
New Headings/Removal of Headings
Trying to see if I can get this page spiffied up a little more after nominating it, I re-arranged a decent bit. Does anyone feel the "other fandoms" part should be separated from the history section and moved elsewhere in order to expand it as it's own dedicated section? Maybe move it and make it's header "example fandoms?" If so where should it go, perhaps right before the meta section? I am also iffy about the contents and location of the "Rise to Popularity" section. The first half reads as unrelated, simply stating how fandom got popular in general before it goes back to actually discussing reader-inserts. But a quick Google revealed that the Attack on Titan fic references is a reader-insert, which isn't clear in the article. Is this section saying that this AOT fanfic is one of the fanfics to have popularized the reader-insert, or just saying it was popular in general? Would it be a better idea to remove the "Rise to Popularity" section and instead insert an example list of highly popular reader-insert stories through fandom history, since right now that's what the section functions as? At the moment I just feel the statements in that section could be better off as bullet points under an "example fandoms" or "popular reader-insert fic" section(s) of some kind, unless the rise in popularity section could find something to expand upon not stated under history. Right now it doesn't necessarily tell readers much about how, or what year, it got popular, just that it's popular in certain fandoms. Patchlamb (talk) 22:19, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks so much for moving things around - it already feels clearer. I would be fine with splitting the other fandoms into an example fandoms section. I also agree that Rise is popularity is a mix of popular fandoms (on Ao3) and example fanworks. The changes you propose sound very good. I feel like reader insert stories really accompanied the rise of bandom in the early 2000s but I have a very western media-centric pov, but I don't know enough about these stories to say for certain. --Auntags (talk) 15:54, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
Japanese Fandom
Those edits to include similar Japanese fandom practices are awesome! Especially including the translations which really helps readability. There aren't a whole lot of pages that focus on non-western perspectives, so it's well needed. I moved it to the intro since I felt it fit better there and can be seen sooner in the article, along with a blurb about the imagines. Really happy with how this page is filling out. Potpotkettle, you seem like you're much more well versed on Japanese language fandom than I am, if you're up to it I totally encourage you to go ahead and make the yumeshosetsu page that's red linked. Fanlore always needs more pages for things outside of western fandom and I see you've already got other great edits so I'm sure you'd do well with it. Patchlamb (talk) 20:01, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for the kind words, I'm glad you liked it. I'm happy to see experienced editors showing such positive feedback to someone relatively new like me. Kudos for doing that. I have a bad habit of leaving red links without thinking too much, but I'll see what I can do. --Potpotkettle (talk) 03:29, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
"earliest reader insert fanfiction" unsubstantiated claim
The history section opens with a claim that "some of the earliest reader insert fanfiction is dated to 1999 on FFN for the Star Trek fandom", but the references provided are very clearly self-insert fics, not reader-insert ones. I think we should delete any unsubstantiated claims like that. Unless anyone has a reference to pre-2000s readerfic that can be used as a replacement? --Endofthyme (talk) 18:26, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- Is it possible that it was a typo and meant to be "self-insert"? -- FBV (talk) 20:56, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like I had inserted that in 2022, and yes it looks like those are referring to self-inserts rather than reader fics. Reader fics are a kind of self-insert, but not all self-inserts use second person or "reader," and the examples from 1999 don't. I think it'd still be useful to keep since self-inserts and OC/canon fics seem like a precursor to reader fics, just needs to be re-worded. Should go on the self-insert page too if not already. Patchlamb (talk) 14:35, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- The statement can be moved to the Self-insertion page, but I don't think it's valid to claim self-inserts are a precursor to reader-inserts, or that reader fics are a kind of self-insert. Self-inserts tend to read like hyper-specific OCs while reader-inserts tend to be ambiguous, and readerfic uses 2nd person pronouns, which self-insert fic rarely if ever does. In my view, they're separate phenomenon with largely separate audiences and communities. --Endofthyme (talk) 21:26, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like I had inserted that in 2022, and yes it looks like those are referring to self-inserts rather than reader fics. Reader fics are a kind of self-insert, but not all self-inserts use second person or "reader," and the examples from 1999 don't. I think it'd still be useful to keep since self-inserts and OC/canon fics seem like a precursor to reader fics, just needs to be re-worded. Should go on the self-insert page too if not already. Patchlamb (talk) 14:35, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- I thought about it more, and I am torn, though still leaning more towards keeping it but re-wording it. On one hand, I understand your point that they are very different, and that is why you think it shouldn't be mentioned here at all. On the other hand, being that both are forms of self-shipping and one came very much before the other, it feels to me that reader-insert is an evolved version of third person self-insertion. Additionally, I believe these two do have overlap. I'm in a Discord server for a reader-insert fanfiction where there is an entire channel dedicated to members turning the "reader" into actual self-insert (with a name, attributes, ref sheets, etc). So, there is indeed overlap in some areas between the second person reader-insert and the third-person self-insert. Given that, I still feel it's worth mentioning in the history section that the third person self-insertion in the 90s came before the second person self-insertion of the 2000s. I don't think these two things developed in a vacuum independently of each other, even if they are different.