Talk:Marion Zimmer Bradley

Pages I'm using for The Controversy, that I haven't managed to link to in the text, yet:

There's already some text on the matter at Darkover and discussion of same on that talk page. I'm not sure what the best location is; my thought was Darkover because the originating event was to do with fiction set in that world. -- Kdcat 23:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, thank you so much for pointing this out -- the Darkover article has an excellent recap of the whole mess! Hmm. At the moment, I think they need a redirect for "Darkover Controvery" or something, and we'll just send them over there.Sherrold 02:16, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps a Controversy subpage of either this article or of the article on Darkover? I do think one location rather than scattered ones for description of the thing; I'd be happy to make a start on such text-arranging wherever is thought to be a good place to gather it. -- Kdcat 20:32, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I think it would be good for the MZB fanfiction controversy to be on MZB's page or on its own page since I usually see it in the form of "Uh... some writer lost a book... I think it was Mercedes Lackey?" or "MZB lost a book!" MZB fans do probably all remember it was a Darkover book, but the urban legend version has spread far and wide among people who know nothing about her work. Also, I'm going to go ahead and label certain versions of the story as an "urban legend". PPOV is all very well and good, but there are many versions of this story that don't even match the most extreme of MZB's own statements, let alone the more moderate statements from her side or the totally different statements from the fan. Franzeska 19:24, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I would rather have a whole page on the MZB Payment For Fanfic Idea Controversy, because it's such a core issue in fanfic. It would be easier to link to it, and to make sure the information is current and has sources. --msilverstar 03:14, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I was kind of assuming Fanlore would have a separate page. I'd also like to quote longer pieces of each side's actual comments. I think seeing what they really said (contradictory or not) is very helpful for people who've just heard vague urban legend versions. Franzeska 14:40, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I've gone ahead and moved most of this info to a separate page: Marion Zimmer Bradley Fanfiction Controversy Franzeska 15:10, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Information about husband

I'm not sure why that information was added here as this is a page about MZB and not her husband. If this has something to do with the way MZB interacted with fandom or fandom with her, it should be framed in that context. --Doro 12:36, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I found out that a lot of fandom people hate her for supporting her, which explained some mysterious acrimony that I'd encountered. I will try to find more context. --msilverstar 22:49, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

She supported him financially. Persumably, the idea is that this allowed him access to events (and therefore victims) he wouldn't otherwise have had. I have no idea what was actually going on, but that's what the hostility is often about. (That and a side order of rage that she's held up as a feminist icon even now despite this and various other things in her work and life that people object to.) Franzeska 16:22, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

And here's a website with an overview of what happened and excerpts of testimony from the court case(s): [1] Franzeska 16:43, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Without taking a position of any kind on what may/may not have happened: it should be noted that that Web site is not (and does not claim to be) a neutral account of events, and that certain parts of what's there indicate that while the legal controversy may have subsided, there's still bitter disagreement between various parties who were connected to the situation(s). I would recommend extremely careful vetting of anything posted on the wiki about this particular matter. --djonn 18:13, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

reference mess-up

So totally flailing about here: I"m trying to make a section read a little cleaner and CANNOT figure out how to make the reference work for the section in "activities as a fan." Can someone assist? --Mrs. Potato Head 02:01, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Is this what it should look like?--Greenygal 05:33, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Thank you so much. After fiddling with it for a while, I went to bed where that footnote haunted me in a dream! --Mrs. Potato Head 13:20, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Suit by Marion Zimmer Bradley Literary Works Trust and Ann Sharp

Not sure where this would best be placed, perhaps in an article on Marion Zimmer Bradley Literary Works Trust, but a couple of links: http://biedermanblog.com/copyright/fan-fiction-or-infringement/ http://dockets.justia.com/docket/california/candce/3:2012cv00073/249871/

Sex Abuse Allegations (MZB)

I've re-ordered and annotated the list of links, and made a handful of technical corrections in the process. I also retitled the section, insofar as all of the material so far gathered mentions no specific victims other than MZB's own children. Notable among these: I pulled the two earliest links, which focus on material regarding Walter Breen's activities (I'll re-insert them shortly, in the section focusing on Breen). I changed the reference to the June 3 Schnelbach post to specify Tor.com rather than Tor Books (the two are editorially separate entities, which is significant because Tor.com as such can't be said to have been MZB's publisher). And I added an annotation to the Guardian link to call out the Russell Galen quote, which was the only material I could find reflecting a statement from the MZB Trust on the accusations. --djonn (talk) 07:13, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for doing all that, djonn. Those edits are very much an improvement.

I've been thinking that this entire section should have its own page, a page which has a focus of how fans have reacted to all this: re-reading her books, separating (or not) the creator from the creations, the willingness of people to tolerate things from heroes/TPTB that they shouldn't, and the challenges and necessities that all fans/self-created groups face in calling out one of their own. It's obviously a huge subject that can only be touched upon in general, but the page should certainly focus on MZB, these allegations, and what fans say. I'm wondering what to call the page? --MPH (talk) 12:16, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Marion Zimmer Bradley child sexual abuse scandal or Marion Zimmer Bradley child sexual exploitation scandal ought to work (based on "Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal" on Wikipedia, it's not too long). Separate page about Walter Breen?, or use "Marion Zimmer Bradley/Walter Breen" in titles? Given what other fan writers and publishers have revealed, Paedophilia and Fandom should have its own page. --KTJ (talk) 01:10, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

There are articles now on Walter Breen and Ed Kramer specifically. --KTJ (talk) 00:00, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Mark Greyland 'Secret Keeper No More' dead links

Starfire-studio.com is dead and so is the archived link to Mark Greyland's interview. If Mr. Greyland wanted these words removed from the internet that's to be respected, but if not, and his own statement about keeping secrets to hide shame would indicate he wants it to be preserved, his words need to be online for others to know they are not alone. I have excerpts but that's all. There are also excerpts on websites that should best remain nameless unfortunately, but no one seems to have the entire text. If anyone reading this does, I wonder how best to proceed. --KTJ (talk) 23:57, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

This link: https://archive.ph/oyloc is used by

geekfeminism.wikia.com » Marion Zimmer Bradley's child abuse en.wikipedia.org » Marion Zimmer Bradley en.wikipedia.org » Talk:Marion Zimmer Bradley fi.wikipedia.org » Marion Zimmer Bradley fr.wikipedia.org » Marion Zimmer Bradley he.wikipedia.org » מריון זימר בראדלי hy.wikipedia.org » Մերիոն Զիմմեր Բրեդլի--MPH (talk) 00:11, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. I have since learned that Mr Greyland died April 30, 2019. Apparently it was not suicide but virtually untreated diabetes. He had been in extremely poor health and chronic pain his entire life. --KTJ (talk) 05:08, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

King in Yellow and "numerous interviews"

I'm taking out the statement that Bradley discussed the influence of this book on her work in "numerous interviews" because I can't directly cite it. I remember reading some, and even picture the printed page in my head, but I can't recreated that link. So until I (or anyone else) can locate some, it's best to leave it out. --MPH (talk) 14:05, 11 February 2019 (UTC)