Talk:Larry Stylinson and the Fourth Wall

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I created the page with mostly new content but also with some content moved from Larry Is Real. See Talk:Larry_Is_Real for details. --Rougeandtonic (talk) 04:15, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

concerns about the notes section

this page is written with a number of notes, which is fine but it appears that a number of them could be folded into the text of the page or, in some cases, turned into straight references? also many of the notes have no citation but it seems like perhaps they should have one such as "Some fans argue against using the term "gaslighting" as using it in a fandom context may trivialize abuse." and "It has been speculated within the fandom that the band's management may be have asked interviewers to ask the questions in order to provide the opportunity for public denials of Larry. Some anti-Larries have argued that Larries' opposition to the questions is because they do not want to hear the answers." i just feel like some of the notes are statements that could use citation or potentially shouldn't be included at all. Flyingthesky (talk) 23:40, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

We have the problem on other pages (ex: https://fanlore.org/wiki/Talk:Larry_Is_Real) I am inclined to suggest the text in the notes be evaluated for suitability to be mvoed into the body with 'citation needed' added. If, after a month or two no cites are added we can reconsider their status. MeeDee (talk) 00:02, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

there's only three notes that need citations now, so i think if someone who has the ability just wanted to use what we've compiled under the "notes" header and leave the rest with just {{Fact}} that would be fine. Flyingthesky (talk) 22:46, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Notes

Below are the Notes. Add in bold whether (1) the note should be folded back into the body "as is", (2) whether a cite needed template needs to accompany its return to the body of the article, (3) whether the Note should be moved to another page, (4) whether it can remain as a footnote or (5) finally whether the Note should be deleted.MeeDee (talk) 05:54, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

1.[COULD BE MOVED AS IS INTO BODY] MeeDee (talk) 05:54, 1 October 2019 (UTC) ↑ In November 2010, while they were still on The X Factor, Harry tweeted:

And, in April 2012, he said, "The fans call me and Louis 'Larry Stylinson' cause we get on really well." youtube clip of Harry saying, "The fans call me and Louis 'Larry Stylinson'" and gif set of the same by onedirectiones, archived, posted April 7, 2012. gifset of a video interview, archived, posted by 1dbromance to Tumblr May 31, 2012. MuchMusic interview on youtube

2. ↑ "RIP Larry Stylinson" echoes the twitter tag that had trended months earlier in the wake of Crazy About One Direction

3. [SHOULD BE ELABORATED - HOW WOULD THE USE IN FANDOM CONTEXT TRIVIALIZE WHAT TYPE OF ABUSE. CITE NEEDED OR EXAMPLES] MeeDee (talk) 05:54, 1 October 2019 (UTC) ↑ Some fans argue against using the term "gaslighting" as using it in a fandom context may trivialize abuse. EDITED: Suggested rewording: "Some Larries use the term gaslighting in reference to people saying that Larry isn't real, which other fans object to because they feel it trivializes actual gaslighting."

And suggested cite: "hey, abuse victim here,,,this is a giant fucking kick in the face to abuse victims lmfao like honestly? a ship and a fucking band aren’t this deep and you’re playing yourselves if you think so so much that you start thinking like this. if we’re gonna talk like this, i could technically say you and other big larries are gaslighting with the way y'all conveniently ignore the ugly things y'all do to people and then play the victim card when people call you out for being shitty human beings. so go fuck yourself and stop trivializing abuse just because you can’t get your head out of your ass and accept that a ship is a ship and a band is a band and nothing more." https://l1l4c.tumblr.com/post/138223065784 MeeDee (talk) 06:09, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

4. [needs citation] ↑ Asks like this are met with disapproval in some corners of the Larry fandom who feel either that the fourth wall should be maintained or that they are not entitled to private details of their personal lives.

5. [COULD BE MOVED AS IS INTO BODY] MeeDee (talk) 05:54, 1 October 2019 (UTC)↑ Since one theme of some corners of the Larry fandom is that they are supporting Harry and Louis and helping them fight the Big Gay War against the contract thought to be keeping them in the closet, fans may be justifying abusive comments on the social media accounts of supposed Modest! employees (including friends and family) as a way of showing Modest! that closeting is unnecessary and counterproductive. According to an anon confession at confessionsofexlarries: "I used to send awful things to Eleanor because I thought that she would quit and Louis would be able to come out if she did that." 7 Feb 2016.

6. [needs citation, can be moved] ↑ A number of fans keep all their fandom activity on Tumblr, avoiding services such as Twitter and Instagram where the band members and their families are present. (As an exception to this, Harry's sister Gemma has been on Tumblr and has responded to asks about Larry Stylinson). Some avoid having fandom Twitter accounts entirely as the band members themselves are on there and sometimes tracking. Many will intentionally avoid commonly tracked tags on Tumblr, such as One Direction, Harry Styles and Louis Tomlinson, Larry Stylinson, though this may be more due to attempting to avoid attention from anti-Larries and sometimes with the knowledge that many non-Larries prefer not to be exposed to Larry content.

7. [COULD BE MOVED AS IS INTO BODY]MeeDee (talk) 05:54, 1 October 2019 (UTC) ↑ As one said, "Do I support fans sending messages to Briana or Louis family? Of course not. But like they say 'there is no smoke without fire'. We can’t all be wrong…" reblog by louisgirlire, 18 Feb 2016. archived.

8. [should be a reference] ↑

This blog was born from the belief that, as fans, through the use of social media, we can show that we are not homophobic but supportive. Not by outing celebrities against their will. Not by waging war on their management and pr companies, But by organizing ourselves, by consistently calling out homophobic statements by media, celebrities and fans, and by educating them on what a tolerant and supportive fanbase looks like. In this way we can slowly but surely tilt the balance in favor of tolerance and support. Amongst the fanbase, at first, in the media, and, ultimately, in the industry itself.posted on Tumblr, Archived version on 27 Apr 2013.

9. [edit to remove citation info/convert link to cite] ↑ Probably a reference to a 2012 interview with the Tumblr Storyboard, in which Louis was quoted as saying, "This is a subject that was funny at first but now is actually hard to deal with as I am in relationship. Me and Harry are best friends, people look into our every move, it is actually affecting the way me and Harry are in public, we want to joke around but there seems to be a different rumor every time we do anything." Posted to Tumblr July 13, 2012, with 12,259 notes as of November 29, 2014.

rewritten: "Probably a reference to a interview with the Tumblr Storyboard, in which Louis was quoted as saying, "This is a subject that was funny at first but now is actually hard to deal with as I am in relationship. Me and Harry are best friends, people look into our every move, it is actually affecting the way me and Harry are in public, we want to joke around but there seems to be a different rumor every time we do anything."<ref name="storyboard"/> - Flyingthesky (talk) 22:46, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

10. ↑ See also Nick Grimshaw - Relationship with One Direction fandom

11. [needs citation] EDITED: Possible cites below. MeeDee (talk)~ ↑ Some Larries have argued that the Larry posters brought to concerts are not any worse that some of the sexual signs that fans who think they were straight have brought. POSSIBLE CITES: https://twitter.com/taIIfriend/status/625503445030572033?s=19 AND https://twitter.com/sapphicangeI/status/613483396078141440?s=19

12. [needs citation, can be moved] ↑ It has been speculated within the fandom that the band's management may be have asked interviewers to ask the questions in order to provide the opportunity for public denials of Larry. Some anti-Larries have argued that Larries' opposition to the questions is because they do not want to hear the answers.

13. [needs citation] ↑ This is not unique to Larry Stylinson. It has been common in the widespread One Direction fandom for members of the public who criticize band members to become targets of harassment.

potentially reword to specifically mention GQ incident? "It has been common in the widespread One Direction fandom for members of the public who criticize band members to become targets of harassment, such as when GQ released their One Direction cover story." possible citations for this note: 1 2 3 3 - Flyingthesky (talk) 22:46, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

14. [needs citation, can be moved] ↑ Others believe that Louis's statements that he is straight and that he considers speculation disrespectful to his girlfriend and son should outweigh fan interpretations of symbols.

possible citations for this note: 12345 - Flyingthesky (talk) 22:46, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

missing ref?

so while i managed to fix the other missing refs created by moving this page from the initial Larry Is Real page, i couldn't find <ref name="simon jones denial" />? so i removed it and swapped it for {{Fact}} but if anyone finds or knows what the citation is supposed to be, please feel free to add it back in. the cite is the first one under the denials" section. Flyingthesky (talk) 04:46, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

It's this: "I want to say for the record I have NEVER fabricated a relationship or date for one of my clients. It is NOT the sort of PR we do in any way" tweet by simonjonespr, Archived version, Jul 19, 2014. Mentioned in this masterpost.--aethel (talk) 02:08, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

fic and art fourth wall violations?

This page doesn't currently have a section or list examples of fans showing their Larry fanworks to the band, which is what I would expect from a page titled "Larry Stylinson and the Fourth Wall". I did find this interview with Liam in 2015: I get a lot of drawings sent to us on the internet. I get tagged in drawings of Louis and Harry being together. I remember this one time I was sitting next to my dad and I see this picture of me on top of Niall, which was quite intimidating. It’s just really weird to have people drawing these sexually explicit pictures of us in strange situations. [1]. Here's fan meta about it. another.--aethel (talk) 03:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

other miscellaneous examples:

--aethel (talk) 00:17, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

aethel, mind if I throw up a {{to do}} on here with this general idea? Pinky G Rocket (talk) 00:42, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
That sounds fine. I'll probably get to it eventually, but having a to-do list seems like a more sensible approach then feeling like I need to do everything right NOW. (It would also be great if someone else knows of any examples or wants to start a section on it.)--aethel (talk) 00:48, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Louis reading fic?

Might not be Larry fic though. MuchMusic interview May 31, 2012: around 18:00 interviewer says "The fanfiction is actually astounding. Have you read it?" and Louis says, "It's very graphic sometimes". Fans responded on twitter[33][34][35][36]

doesn't look like anyone noticed, but someone did send him a link to their own fanfic[37], Niall/OFC.

someone sent him a link to Larry fic[38], someone told him they read one[39], reccing fanfic to him[40]

The whole band talks about reading fanfic starting at ~16:40 on the FOUR hangout video. But Larry fic is not mentioned specifically.[41]--aethel (talk) 23:43, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

note on the complex changes across pages

Multiple chunks of different versions of the Larry Is Real page were moved to this page initially in 2019: the initial version of this page as written by a larrie, including some moved/recombined/rewritten sections from Larry Is Real, and these edits by a different editor who left a note saying they were copied from the Larry Is Real page. The second set of additions included material that was added by the larrie editor to the Larry Is Real page and was subsequently removed as part of the Larry Is Real revert to a mostly pre-larrie state due to POV issues. Since then the Larry Is Real page has developed significantly, but the fourth wall page was mostly untouched until recently.

I have been mulling over whether/how to combine the duplicated information. I think the harassment information should either live on the main Larry Is Real page or live on its own page with "harassment" in the title. Moving the information to a page titled "Fourth Wall" I feel would be a PPOV violation--hiding the harassment discussion under a term that is mostly associated with fans who show actors their erotic fanart, or journalists asking actors to read bad fanfic out loud. The allegations of harassment in 1D fandom are very serious and have involved phone hacking and assaulting Louis's girlfriend in an airport.--aethel (talk) 15:07, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

misc media and journalist links

Not harassment per se, but this tumblr post claims 1D's management paid The Daily Dot to run the article about Larry tinhats and shares screenshots of themselves DM'ing the daily dot with this accusation.[42][43] Meanwhile, larries interpreted Aja's article as an attack on larries and a fourth wall violation.[44]--aethel (talk) 01:44, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

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