Talk:Historical AU

Historical and Historical AU

I notice that "Historical" is redirected to "Historical AU." I was wondering what to do with historical fics that aren't AU? Obviously, Magento's past as a Holocaust survivor falls under backstory, but I tend to think of fics about the Holocaust as historical rather than simply backstory.

What about 9/11 fics? Or non-AU fics that use historical events as plot devices (the J2 visit the Killing Fields fic)? --Anenko 12:27, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not so thrilled with the AU title, but it's the same pattern problem we have with other genre pages. "Historical Fic" won't work b/c of the fanart (and obviously the costume aspect makes this popular for visual things), and just using an adjective, i.e. "historical", as title is rather odd, and you can't really call it "history".

As for the 9/11 fics, I don't really think of recent past really as "historical". Not to mention that I've encountered the first 9/11 fic, iirc, on a mailing list in 2001, so it's more like using news items in your fic. I mean, political commentary fic would also fall within this, like issuefic where some author has characters commenting on gay marriage rulings or such stuff.--RatCreature 22:23, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with RatCreature. The common definition of historical novel (which is what historical AUs aim for) is something that is set far enough in the past that it counts as history because the people writing it/reading it weren't alive back then. Usually that means it has to be at least a few generations in the past. --Doro 22:45, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

yeah. I think the most recent that could be counted as "historical" at the present might be WWII fic, but IMO even that is pushing it, because plenty of people who were young adults then are still alive. In my mind it's more pre-1900, because the rare 120-year old aside, people who knew the year 1900 first hand are pretty much all dead now.--RatCreature 22:57, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

What would you propose doing with this sort of fanwork? I think it's worth addressing, seeing as there's been a lot of heated discussion about the use of (modern) history (both in AU fics and not). --Anenko 23:40, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

We could make a page "Recent History in Fanworks" or "Politics in Fanworks" for recent/current event and/or "Colonialism in Fanworks" or (from a more aesthetical framework) "Exoticism in Fanworks" for the kind of work that uses other places as backdrop depending on which debate/topic/theme?--RatCreature 00:22, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Real-Life Tragedy in Fanworks? --Doro 00:33, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

I like "Recent History in Fanworks" better than Colonialism or Exoticism. While there are a lot of fanfics and other fanworks that have been very hurtful (the Haiti fic, the Killing Fields fic, the Bandom Holocaust fic, etc.) not all stories dealing with recent historical events have been so. . . hmm, fraught, maybe? There were some pretty sensitive X-Men Movieverse fics about Magneto as a Holocaust survivor (frequently filtered through Rogue). And I don't know how the stories were met by fans, but didn't several comic companies publishes special issues with their heroes helping in the aftermath of 9/11? Not all these types of fics are written by outsiders, although some of them certainly are. --Anenko 00:35, 7 August 2010 (UTC) ETA: Real-Life Tragedy in Fanworks works for me, too. ETA again: upon further reflection, strike that last ETA. --Anenko 18:35, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

How about Historical Fanworks? That would cover both art and fic. A lot of Mary Renault fic is canonically historical; and there are certainly other writers about whom that is also true (Rosemary Sutcliff, D. K. Broster, Dorothy Dunnett, et al.). I feel seriously wrong mentioning fanfic based on such authors' works in an article with "AU" in the title.

Apropos of which, the problems of writing real historical fiction as opposed to AUs came up here, in a post to maryrenaultfics made by Dusk Peterson. It starts by discussing litslash, but further down the comments segue into the complications of including history in fiction, and whether it's easier to research events or do character studies. The conclusion seems to be that AUs are a hell of a lot simpler! Contrariwise, people trying for historical non-AU fiction often strive for authenticity to an extreme degree. Granted there's a original fic bent here, for obvious reasons, but it's true of fanfic also.

Meaning that we should distinguish historical AUs from "real history" historical fiction fanworks. --Greer Watson 23:16, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

I prefer "Recent History" to "Real-Life Tragedy", as sometimes recent history used in fanworks may not be tragic (although I just realised how old all those comments are; is there already a page?)

I don't agree that we need to distinguish AUs from 'real history' fanworks, or at least not on the grounds that people trying to write 'real history' strive harder for authenticity. I feel safe in assuming writers of AUs sometimes also strive for authenticity. Historical Fanworks seems like it should work as a general page and maybe keep the AU page as a glossary term? --MegR 12:35, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

There's now Real World Events in Fanworks, although the only content is on the talk page so far. --Anenko 15:45, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

The only trouble I have with putting historical material in Real World Events in Fanworks, is that, to me, the term sounds as though it refers to relatively current events. On the whole, I wouldn't apply "real world events" to the Crusades or Shakespeare or the Battle of Thermopylae. Technically accurate, I suppose; but it's not the article where I would think to look for information about them—and user-friendliness is not unimportant. --Greer Watson 17:54, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

No, I have another problem. Historical setting does not necessarily mean "real world events". Someone could write a perfectly nice Forever Knight story in which the hero (a centuries-old vampire) is travelling as an actor in the 18th century. The author might have done a great deal of research to ensure authenticity in the presentation, so it would certainly count as "historical". However, it would not be an "AU", since it would be based on canon (the episode "Last Act"). Yet they could well not include a single "real event". Culture isn't an event. --Greer Watson 18:03, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I think I confused the issue by responding to two separate points in one comment. I don't think your FK story example is relevant to the Real Worlds Events page, that isn't what it's for. Did you read that page's talk page? As far as I understand, it is chiefly about using recent(ish) and ongoing real world events in fanworks, and controversies related thereto, not about using a historical setting in general. The Historical Fanworks page has been proposed as an additional, separate page for historical fic in general, or as a name-change for this Historical AU page, and is a whole separate issue. --MegR 18:37, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Got it. (Yes, not recent, obviously.) --Greer Watson 06:35, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

As far as a proposed separate Historical Fanworks page is concerned, AUs do surely have distinctive characteristics, so I'm not suggesting a name change for the Historical AU page. (I do think the two concepts are related, though; so cross-referencing would be in order.) --Greer Watson 06:35, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

I would just go for it and make a new page then, there's been ample opportunity for disagreement to be raised, and you seem to be the one adding most of the relevant fanwork pages anyway ;). --MegR 12:20, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

another example found

File:Inthepublicinterest02.jpg, 1988, In the Public Interest (Professionals slash anthology), cover by TACS

--æþel 01:19, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Three Hetalia examples

Do we really need 3 Hetalia stories by the same author? I don't know Hetalia at all, but it looks like the canon is largely set in WW2 so the stories aren't really good examples of historical AUs anyway? Espresso Addict (talk) 07:04, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with Hetalia either but I'm inclined to agree with you. I moved those examples to a page for the author: George deValier. --sparc (talk) 06:10, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

That's a good idea. Someone who knows Hetalia might be able to work out what they are a good example of. Espresso Addict (talk) 09:19, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

New sections or a new page?

As some of you may already know, I am part of the fandom in Portuguese and Spanish, so my view on some terms in the glossary and trope are quite different from those that are part of the fandom and British English or American English. For example, in Brazil a work can be labeled as "historical" or "of the period/epoch". The first being that work that addresses historical facts or environments accurately or not. And the second is when we only use the period as a background. Example we would have the pocket novels, by publishers like Harlequin. Some titles here are seen as historical because they address real facts and even delve into them, while others are only based on that era. I'm explaining all of this because I wanted to know how I can add such facts to the page for these terms and tropes. The way we see these genres/terms/tropes is very different from the way you see them. And I think this should be addressed and explained. But I would like help with that. And where to insert the infos. Ellakbhesse (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Historical characters in modern age?

How should it be handled when the original characters are set in a prior time period, but there are fanfiction works are placed in the modern era? Specifically I am thinking of the ATF universe stories for the Magnificent 7. Would the ATF stories be considered "Historical AU" since it is outside of the original time period? And if so, how should they be listed in the Examples section of the page? -- Lig (talk) 09:53, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Lig, hi. I recommend you read the first thread on this page. Your question is perhaps best answered there. Because there is a big deal about what is AU and what is not about the historical period used in fanworks or in fandom. [Historical and Historical AU] -- Ellakbhesse (talk) 13:48, 31 August 2021 (UTC)