FanLib Forum Discussion May-June 2007

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Title: FanLib Forum Discussion May-June 2007
Creator: Chris Williams, David Williams, jdsampson, and many fans
Date(s): May 12, 2007-June 23, 2007
Medium: online
Fandom: multifandom
Topic:
External Links:
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FanLib Forum Discussion May-June 2007 is a discussion on FanLib's forum.

It includes questions by fans about the for-profit endeavor, with some questions answered by FanLib's TPTB.

The discussion starts off fairly neutral, and FanLib's owners are congenial as they reply with PR-ish responses, but it doesn't take long for that to change. Fans asked more and more pointed questions, and FanLib's PTB's answers changed as well.

For more about the forum itself, see FanLib's Fan Forum, and FanLib's Official Blog.

Some Context

FanLib was one of several for-profit endeavors between 2007-2008 with a goal of making money from fanfiction and other fanworks. Some of these companies were owned and operated by fans, but FanLib was not. Its owners were a group of male investors whose fannish experience was non-existent, or was very different.

While there were other companies during this time that operated with profit in mind, such as Fanfiction.net, Quizilla, and Firefox News.

Fan History Wiki and resulting wank and disruption was heavy on fan minds. Strikethrough, something that began during this time, was also a flashpoint.

All of these things, combined with the increasing visibility of fandom and fanworks, set the stage for the formation of The Organization of Transformative Works, and Archive of Our Own.

The Links

  • page 1 (Subject: ?'s about the site itself)
  • page 2 (Subject: ?'s about the site itself)
  • page 3 (Subject: ?'s about the site itself)
  • page 4 (Subject: ?'s about the site itself)
  • page 5 (Subject: ?'s about the site itself)
  • page 6 (Subject: ?'s about the site itself)

FanLib PTB Names

  • jdsampson (employee, fandom beard)
  • holly9000 (forum moderator)
  • mimbo (Chris Williams) (founder and owner)
  • davidbw (David Williams) (founder and owner)

Some Topics Discussed

  • the increased visibility of fandom and fanworks and how this was dangerous
  • some fans were angry that are fans are being "the face of fandom" and speaking for everyone
  • [David Williams, one of FanLib's founders] tagline is "Write something, even if it's a suicide note."
  • a link to the cease and desist letter to The Slayer's Fanfic Archive
  • discussion about other for-profit fan sites such as Fanfiction.net
  • [darkrose]: "I'm going to be really blunt here, Mr. Williams: You're in a hole. Stop digging."
  • the site's confusing, contradictory, and poorly-spelled Terms of Service:
[David Williams, one of FanLib's founders]: "There are some very valid points in these postings and we take them very seriously. We now realize our FAQ and Terms of Service are not good expressions of our intentions. This is why we are currently revising our FAQ and reviewing our TOS."
  • entertainment companies used to be against fanfiction but that has changed
[David Williams, one of FanLib's founders]: "There was certainly a time some years back when the entertainment companies were more antagonistic toward fans. But, we're confident that times have changed and the existence of FanLib with our entertainment ties is a manifestation of that change. BTW, if you have any more info on this, I'd appreciate it. I searched Google and Wikipedia, but couldn't find anything."
  • the business model and how planned to be built on the backs of women and their free labor:
[bereginy]: "I mean, what did they expect us (fandom) to say? 'Thank you, O Unknown Men With No Fandom Backgrounds, for bringing an air of legitimacy to our forty-year-old tradition of women's writing! Without you, why, we wouldn't have known what to do with ourselves! My, what a big TOS you have!' It's the gendered exploitation that gets me. I don't care what that corporate shill Jdsampson says. There's a reason why people are so upset about this and it has everything to do with women's community efforts being exploited by big business via men."
  • lack of respect for fandom history:
[jonquil]: "The fanfiction community is a well-established community, with over 30 years of history. It has its own culture, its own mores, and its own traditions. You didn't respect any of the above when you created your site. You didn't acknowledge the strong fanhistory against profiting from fanfic; you stereotyped fanfic writers as teenagers and college students; you put up ads that seemed to be targeted at adolescent males, but that in any case had nothing to do with the image that fanfiction writers have of themselves."
  • legalisms, it sounded like FanLib would make the money, but if legal trouble came up, would throw fans under the bus:
[hotpoint]: "I personally have no particular issue with Fanlib making money because someone wants to look at one of my Fics but the idea that posting a Fic here could in fact be detrimental to me, while the people making money from it have nothing to lose, is pretty iniquitous when you think about it. Fanlib by its very nature is bound to attract more corporate scrutiny than a not-for-profit site and if I'm going to help contribute to someone's profit margins I think they should be willing to do more than just wash their hands of the situation if the C&D; hits the fan."
  • [David Williams, one of FanLib's founders]:
"[For-profit fan sites] want to make money by producing, distributing and exhibiting big entertainment. Not by monetizing fan fiction. They recognize that fan fiction is marketing for their high-margin wares. It's really a win-win that no one is incentivized to upset. Fans get a long creative leash and the studios get happy active customers who evangelize to the rest of the world."
  • [David Williams, one of FanLib's founders]:
"it is so nice to actually be able to have a level-headed conversation about this with you. There is a lot of sound and fury out there and I really appreciate you hearing us out and making this discussion possible."
  • TPTB saying things like:
    • "Enough for a PR biscuit?"
    • "If we just wanted money, we'd have started a site for porn or dieting or something."
    • "...if you believe as we do that the positives for fandom will far outweight the negatives, then it's worth it."
    • "At least we're not some corporate giant pretending to be some little fan hobbyist who's just scraping by. Hmmm, I'm starting to wonder if I shouldn't be a little perturbed about this."
    • "Okay, I'm going to stop myself from getting riled about this. You know, at least one of those other, seemingly hobbyist sites is currently running full-page interstitial ads. Very annoying; even more profitable. If you saw this site through ad buyer eyes instead of fan eyes, well... perception [insert grand canyon here] reality. I don't want to disparage anyone, but maybe we should get a little credit for being forthright. I sound riled, I know."

More Comments by FanLib's Owners

[David Williams, one of FanLib's owners]:

In short, the purpose of this site is to be an awesome place for fanfic fans: Whether posting, reading, finding, sharing, reviewing, discussing, or meeting others, we want to make the whole experience of fan fiction as great as possible. Easy, effective, fun!

We also want to help make fan fiction more popular for fans who maybe haven't discovered it yet. And we want to help authors get more readers. That's a big reason why we feature selected fics on the homepage and also have created the sharing badges to help you get the word out about your work.

We're a real company. Some people think that makes us evil. But, *sometimes* to do things really well, it takes money. So, we have and will continue to invest significant dollars to do this. We are backed by major investors and we make money mainly by selling advertising, but also by helping other companies like HarperCollins and MSN produce their own "storytelling" events.

You are not under surveillance by us. Fan fiction has been going on for a long time in a kind of black market and we understand that the fact that we're trying to do it commercially and out in the open makes a lot of people skeptical. We're based in Los Angeles and have several entertainment veterans on our team and we believe that the times they are a changin'. In 2007, the powers that be who once battled fanfic authors are ready to take a new approach. We are working closely with media companies and publishers so that this site can help lead the way.

But, that does *not* mean that you lose any ownership rights or anything by posting here. The rights and ownership of fan fiction are a complex matter. But, we don't make any judgments about it. When you post something publicly, you give us a temporary right to present it to others on the site, a right that goes away the moment you remove it. That's pretty much it.

Terms of Service: http://www.fanlib.com/termsOfUse.do

We also take your privacy very seriously. We don't collect any personal info unless you're claiming a contest prize and we will never share any personal info with anyone else. A link to our Privacy Policy is posted on every page and it's as good or better than any other major site.

Privacy Policy: http://www.fanlib.com/privacyPolicy.do

As for the invitation-only status of the site, it has now been open to the public for a few weeks. The invitation-only group was vital in helping us get the site ready for a wider crowd. That group contained real fanfic "experts" to tell us where the big problems were and create good stories for when readers arrived.

Well, this is probably a longer response than you were expecting. I hope I've answered your questions. Please feel free to ask more or just share your opinion anytime. Another goal for us is to be highly responsive and dependable. We get paid, so we oughta be, right? So, please don't hesitate to contact us anytime.

Thanks and enjoy,

David.

[Chris Williams, one of FanLib's owners]:

Hi Zillah975,

My name is Chris Williams and I am also one of the co-founders of FanLib. I thought I would jump in to express myself here.

I must start by saying I think comparisons between the file sharing that was going on at Napster and fan fiction are just plain wrong. Downloading music illegally is a crime and people who do it are thieves plain and simple. Nothing grey about that. If someone uploaded the text from a published book here we would remove it immediately as that is theft.

I feel the need to ask you a question. Do you think fan fiction authors should be persecuted?

I believe whole-heartedly that fan fiction authors and readers should be celebrated and supported. That is my mission in life. I have spent the last six years evangelizing fan fiction to published authors, television creators, book publishers, movie studios, television networks and just about anyone else that would listen. And, you know what, after banging my head against the wall for a really long time they are finally starting to listen!!!

Something just feels so right about fan fiction. It is all about great storytelling, reading and writing and expressing creativity. These are all great things especially for the young audience of teens that make up such large part of the community.

You know a lot keeps me up at night because what we are trying to do is really hard. Not only do we worry about bringing the big media companies around but we worry deeply about the skepticism that we face with the fan fiction community. One thing I can assure you of is we are willing to take the heat and not hide from it. We are transparent and don't hide our mission and goals like some other sites. We look at every question from a media company as an opportunity to evangelize fan fiction even more and ultimately we have courage in our conviction that it is a good thing that should be encouraged and celebrated.

All that I can ask is that you give us the opportunity to let our actions speak louder than our words. Keep an eye on us and speak up when you think we've done something wrong but at least give us a chance.

[jdsampson, one of FanLib's employers]:

I would just like to set the record straight here. I know that my fannish name, JDSampson is ambiguous in its gender but I am female and I've been a fan writer since 1975. I published fan newsletters when you needed carbon paper to do it. I'm half of Gold n Lily, the fanzine press (Media West, anyone?) and I'm active in Supernatural now, Buffy before that and dozens of other smaller fandoms.

I work DAILY on Fanlib as an employee and as a fan. I review EVERY new story posted (no I don't read them all, but I skim many and at least review the summaries, etc of all that come in). And even though I'm not a founding board member, I offer many suggests and have helped shape things with fannish eyes.

You'll also find my fan fiction here and I make the effort to leave lots of feedback and keep up in the forums.

Can't speak for anyone else here- but I fit both of your qualifications, female and a fan writer who goes way back.

Just want to make sure the facts are being properly represented.

[David Williams, one of FanLib's owners]:

Actually, we *did* make some changes based on fan feedback on May 1st and a notice of such has been taking up some pretty good real estate on the homepage since then. And, we are certainly open to improving the TOS more based on feedback in the future. However, while accepting that some criticism is valid, a lot of the TOS issues strike me as red herrings.

1) It's a challenging TOS for reasons I think are somewhat obvious;

2) Much of the criticism ignores the context of other TOS's because, in comparison, ours doesn't suck that bad. (Remember, we lose all rights as soon as something's removed so we won't be investing in exploitive commercial products without member say-so.) Frankly, even finding FFN's TOS is a challenge. But, it does also contain some of the same apparent contradictions we've been dinged on. LiveJournal has those contradictions as well. It also has the standard "Indemnity" clause that makes you soley [sic] responsible for legal ramifications, damages, fees and such;

3) This is the big one... Most of the analysis of our TOS is done with the presumption of guilt. People don't worry about the TOS's on these other sites because they've come to trust them or are swayed by the value they get from those sites. I don't rule out changes to our TOS (frankly, that right to "edit" submissions was just a mistake; It's not even in the admin toolset), but I think trust is the real issue.

More Comments by Fans

[zillah975]: I just joined [FanLib/this forum] yesterday to find out how this place works, and near as I can tell, the purpose of the site is to make money by giving fanfic writers a place with a veneer of authenticity to post their fanfic. Now, since there hasn't been a definitive legal case regarding the legality of fanfic, the site isn't currently making money off of something that's been determined to be illegal, but I think fanfic enters very treacherous waters when it starts to become a money-making proposition, regardless of whether it's the writer making the money. Fanfic.net, for instance, has advertising, but it's not-for-profit. It's also run by fans, which to my mind gives it a slightly greater legitimacy than something run by a corporation to make a profit off of other people's fanworks.

Also, while they're quite willing to make money off of fans, they're also quick to slip out of the room when the copyright holders come sniffing around. Their TOS quite clearly states that any legal liability is on us, even though we're not the ones making the money.

I'd proceed with caution, if i were you. Oh, and read the TOS. There's stuff in there that's kind of alarming, like, "by submitting the Submissions to FanLib, You hereby grant FanLib a non-exclusive, worldwide, and royalty-free license to use, reproduce, distribute, and display the Submissions in connection with the Website." Which, so, if Fanlib decides to publish a book from the fanworks on the site, we don't get anything from it? That's what it sounds like to me. And "In connection with Submissions, You affirm, represent, and/or warrant that You own or have the necessary rights or permissions, either from third parties, or through an ultimate determination of fair use under copyright law" - except how is the average fan going to be able to say that ultimately their work will be determined fair use? They're the ones with the lawyers, not us.

So, eh. I'm very skeptical at this point.

[David Williams]: And there are many other commercial sites making big bucks off fan fiction as well: Quizilla, TheForce.net, LiveJournal, Yahoo!, just to name a few.

[darkrose]: I'm sorry, but that's just not true. None of the sites you mention are primarily fanfiction repositories. Yahoo! certainly isn't, and it's frankly disingenuous to try to claim that it is. LiveJournal isn't--it's a social networking site that many people involved in online fandom have found suits them. Quizilla is a site for online quizzes, not fanfiction.
As for TF.N one of the original fic archivers on that site posted about it here, and her account differs substantially from your claim that TF.N is making "big bucks off fan fiction."
If nothing else, the fact that you and Mr. Williams and Ms. Sampson have consistently responded to valid questions with evasions and in some cases outright misrepresentation makes me uncomfortable. Why on earth should I archive my work on a site that purports to be by and for fans, but whose employees show an astonishing lack of knowledge about this segment of the fannish comminity [sic], and who display contempt for the fanfiction community by refusing to address concerns raised by many members of said community?

[...]

My biggest complaint with both the TOS and the FAQ for FanLib is actually how appallingly unprofessional they are. For a site that's supposed to be for writers to post official statements that are riddled with typos and grammatical errors is really not building confidence. Nor is the defensiveness: "some people think that making money means we're evil" That's a lovely strawman, but in fact, the issue isn't that you're making money--it's that from everything that I've seen so far, FanLib has not been upfront about how the process is going to work, so it looks to many fanfic writers like FanLib will be making a profit from our work while not providing any benefit to us.

If you wanted to show good faith, you might start by:

1. Addressing the complex legal issues around fanfiction by something other than a link to Wikipedia, and re-working your TOS and FAQ to address the issues that have been raised in a transparent and professional manner.

2. Posting a full list of the copyright holders that you have agreements with. This is particularly important to me, because I write in Harry Potter fandom. Both JK Rowling and her publisher have said that they do not condone adult-content fanfiction, yet the first two stories I see under Harry Potter fandom have an age range of "over 13". Lord of the Rings is listed as one of your top fandoms. Has Christopher Tolkien changed his feelings on derivative works based on his father's canon? Has Houghton Mifflin, the U.S. copyright holder for Tolkien's work, signed off on this?

3. Apologizing for spamming fanfiction authors in their LiveJournals and on their sites. Even if you were not initially aware that copying and pasting the same defensive rant into at least four different journals, and having FanLib employees create account on sites for the primary purpose of pushing your site were violations of fannish and internet etiquette, the subsequent negative response should have made that clear. Apologizing, and more importantly, not continuing the behavior, would go a long way toward convincing us that you're serious about working with fans instead of using us and giving us nothing in return.

I don't actually think that FanLib is "evil for making a profit". My main issue is that FanLib has displayed a lack of understanding of the community it purports to advocate for.

[zillah975]:

Also, I'm concerned that in highlighting the fact that it's partnered with industry giants, fanlib.com is hoping writers will believe that this gives them a safe place to post their fic, when in fact, the fact that the site is a money-making venture makes it significantly less safe. I mean, on the one hand you're encouraging us to post work of questionable legality so that the site can make money off of it, but on the other you're backing away at light speed from helping out any of your authors who wind up in trouble because of it, and also making it more likely that there will be legal action. It seems pretty dicey to me.

If you only allowed fanworks based on texts that your partners hold the copyright too, my concerns would diminish somewhat. But the folks you're partnered with don't hold the copyright for all the works that fanworks here are based on, so that air of legitimacy is pretty much false. I worry that many authors will be misled, and wind up in trouble for it, and also that fanfiction across the board - not just here, but everywhere - will wind up in deep trouble over this.

We tend to want to fly under the radar because it increases the chances that, if noticed by the copyright holder, the copyright holder will say, "eh, no one's making money from it, no one's going to think this is licensed. Let's leave it alone." I'm very concerned that Fanlib.com will cause a crackdown on fanfic the way Napster did on filesharing, and that makes me very, very unhappy.

[jdsampson, FanLib employee]: One last thing - your comment about lack of knowledge about the community couldn't be further off base. I began writing fan fic in 1973. I ran fan newsletters (the old fashioned way) for two fandoms through the 80s and 90s. I co run a fanzine press. I have attended fan conventions from the Creation type to Media West. I've been in online fandom for almost 15 years and I am not by any stretch of the imagination clueless. Just because I don't agree with some of the masses, doesn't mean I don't know what they're talking about.
[darkrose]: And yet you expressed surprise that one of the objections raised to FanLib is that there is not a single woman on the board. Gender has always been an aspect of fannish politics, beginning back in the 1970's when male fans complained vehemently about female slashers "gaying up" their characters. Russ, Jenkins, Bacon-Smith and Penley have all included the idea of fanfic-writing fandom as a female space in their analyses of fanfiction. Just three weeks ago, the Metafandom community on LJ was full of posts responding to Cupidsbow's essay titled "Women/Writing 1: How Fanfiction Makes Us Poor". Not everyone agreed with her analysis, but certainly, the topic of gender and fanfiction, especially as it relates to to compensation and mainstream perception of fanfiction has been a hot topic in LJ for some time now--and it still surprised you that people would have issues with the FanLib board being exclusively male?
The behavior of other FanLib representatives, such as coming into LJ and spamming the journals of critics with the identical poorly-written rant, creating accounts on fan sites for the primary purpose of promoting the site, and sending unsolicited invitations to fan writers are all contrary to commonly accepted community etiquette--yet you (the collective FanLib you) seem genuinely confused as to why the community is so upset and views you as outside interlopers. I don't know you, or either Mr. Williams. All I know is what I've seen recently, and I would not expect people who were part of a community to come in, violate community norms, and then be surprised when the community doesn't welcome them with open arms.

[frozencatnip]: First off, I would like to point out to the self-proclaimed representatives of the fanfic community that you don't speak for all of us, and personally, I'm beginning to find it offensive that you're attempting to do so.

I'm entirely capable of speaking for myself, and would like to think that the masses who seem to be engaging in hysteria in their Live Journals are capable of doing so as well.

I'm not going to dispute the fact that FanLib's original ToS had some flaws. I'm not going to argue that I had second thoughts when initially asked for personal information when joining the site. After a few moments' consideration, however, I decided that my personal information was easily obtainable by anyone attempting to find it via the internet, since my fic is normally published under my real name, and supplied it. This was MY CHOICE, just as it has been my choice to submit my fic, and my choice to wait and see what happened when writers' legitimate concerns were taken into consideration.

Thus far, I've seen a revised Privacy Policy, a revised ToS (regrettably still sporting the aforementioned "editing" clause), and any number of irate fans dealt with, predominently [sic], in a professional manner. In fact, FanLib has demonstrated far more patience than I would have had, based solely upon what I've read in a number of the Live Journal discussions of the topic.

Yes, they're making a profit off our fic. They've been upfront about that. Given my choice, I would also be making a profit off of my fic; sadly, like all other fanfic writers out there, I understand that isn't possible. We write for fun, and for recognition. Our ranks, contrary to what seems to be the popular belief, are made of people of all ages, races, nationalities, genders (yes, there are male writers of fanfic, some of whom are quite prolific), and sexual orientations. But ultimately, we have two things in common; we like to write, and we like to have people read it.

In my humble opinion, FanLib has the potential to provide far more recognition and legitimacy for all of us than any previous endeavor, simply because it DOES have sponsors from the owners of at least some of these fandoms.

I'm not entirely clear on just what the nay-sayers would like FanLib to have done to respect the fanfiction community; in my opinion, they're showing respect simply by supplying a service and inviting us to come and use it. And I, for one, appreciate that they are doing so, whether they are men, women, or genderless J'Naii visiting from the Star Trek universe. I'd like to think that the fanfic community for which you purport to speak is a little more openminded than they're being portrayed.

For the record, I've been writing fanfic for approximately 10 years (my real name is available in my profile). And I say approximately not to deceive anyone (I suppose you can check the date of my first fic if you'd really like to) but because I simply don't remember. As you say, I have a life, with all it includes.

And nonetheless? I'm still excited about my free t-shirt.

[mi-chan17]: A side note on the "teenagers/college" phenomenon: If they were getting information from fanfiction.net, I could see where the perception that the majority of writers are teenagers would come from. While many authors are adults, and while the vast majority of prolific authors are adults, much of fanfiction.net's stuff is written by kids/teenagers/students. And, for the record, there's nothing wrong with being a college-aged kid. I know I'm enjoying it.

[bereginy]: It's a corporation. They want to make money off of you. Hello. If their [sic] not exploiting your work, what are they making money off of? What's bringing people here to view their crappy wrestling ads? Love the ads too, you guys really know your audience. Ask yourself why they've poured 3 million dollars into this craptacular website. They aren't here to help anyone. They are here to make a buck, while not providing any legal shield for the people writing for them. The ones bringing the people here to view the ads. You gain nothing by writing for them, while they gain money from ad revenue.

[moralanqua]: Bereginy -

You don't know for a fact the gender ratio in the fanfic writing community because it's just too big and too obscure. You corner of fandom may be 90% female and feminist but you aren't speaking for everyone.

Take the LotR fandom as an example. Yes, the fanfic *is* written by mostly woman but it sure as hell ain't laden with feminiazi agenda or male oppressors! When you get past the tweeny emo crapfic in this fandom you get to the real stuff. The delish pr0n and thought provoking epic fantasy that cherishes canon. You won't find much else but splooge from the usual fandom wanking.

How can you really say for certain that ALL the other fandoms from Star Trek to Sandman are the same as what you know and experience? You can't.

Don't lose perspective. FL is making money from advertising but so does Adultfanfic.net and Fanfic.net (to name some). Shouldn't we be asking how else this site can make cash from writers and then decide (if we ever get an answer) if we are being exploited and then raise the alarm?

What about the graphics? Do FL have super speshul deals that allow them to use copyright protected images such as the rather spiffy one of Eomer looking all smexy? Should we be worrying about New Line/Wing Nut Films coming over to investigate small issues like that but then discovering all the pages of Legolas/Ent slash?

Now that we have created pages of distracting and irrelivant [sic] gender arguements [sic], the real issues of money and legal ass-raping are sidelined again.

So I repeat to the Fanlib ownership -

How exactly do you intend on making money from us and how far up shit creek are we legally when the big wigs of industry come crashing in on your parade?

References

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