Zine ELITISM
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| Title: | Zine ELITISM |
| Creator: | various, one long comment is by Flamingo |
| Date(s): | January 2002 |
| Medium: | online |
| Fandom: | Starsky & Hutch |
| Topic: | |
| External Links: | |
| Click here for related articles on Fanlore. | |
Zine ELITISM is an early 2002 discussion on Venice Place Mailing List.
The topic was print zines, perceived elitism, entitlement, the availability of print zine fiction online, and the clash of different generations and their incomplete knowledge of customs and history. And socialism.
[moonpuppy]: Maybe "marginalized" is the wrong term. Maybe "scorned" is a better term. Why else would zines that were published 5, 6, even 10 years ago, still be in print and unavailable on the net? "Murder at San Carmelitas" (correct spelling?) is a prime example. Just because I can't cough up, what? $40 for a zine, I'll never be able to read it. When, in every other fandom I've read, once a zine's been out for a year the stories hit the net. And I used to think MFU was stuffy.
[Creed C.]: I agree with Moonpuppy, but I go a step further. I think Zines are a form of Elitism. I'm a net writer born and bred and I believe everyone has equal right to read my stories if they should chose, whether they can afford to or not. I cannot afford zines or to travel to Cons to buy them, so I feel for anyone else in the same boat. And I do believe everyone has a right to do whatever they like, net publishing or not... but why not net published ZINES?
Flamingo: This is something I can discuss with first hand knowledge, because I'vebeen in the forefront of trying to get zinefic translated for the net for years now. First off, Murder is officially out of print. It never cost $40, but it did cost, I think $30 when the color version came out, and that was strictly due to the high expense of producing 18 color illos and a color cover. When it was in black and white, it cost a great deal less. Clearly, people were willing to pay for the color version since it sold extremely well for many years, but it never broke even in expenses because of the expense of the color copies. You can now get Murder, the color version, through the Starsky & Hutch Lending Library for postage and a membership fee which entitles you to six shipments of zines of approximately 2 pounds apiece. Since the zine is out of print, you can photocopy the library copy for whatever it costs to photocopy.
Of course, that isn't the point, or the real story. The reason most print zines are not on the net and are still on paper has little to do with "scorn" and has a lot to do with culture. S&H came up through a paper culture. Its zines are old, most were typed long before computers, and many of the authors of those stories in those zines cannot be found. However, many of the paper zines' authors *have* given permission to have their zines posted and are more than willing to have that happen. Many stories in the Code 7 zines are up on the archives and more are being translated even as we speak. Decorated for Death is being transcribed even as we speak. The entire "red light" trilogy of Terri Beckett and Chris Powers is being transcribed and One More Mountain is already posted. All of Teri White's and Ruth Kurz's stories and art will be posted. All of Suzan Lovett's fiction and much of her art has been posted. All of Lucy Cribb Walk (Doty) and Cheryl Maier's work will be posted. All of Madeline Lee's. All of Rosemary's will be posted. All of mine will be posted. All of Mer's. And many more.
It takes an enormous amount of time to translate stories that were never in any electronic format to that format. The primary reason all the stories that can be posted aren't is simply that: time. The author's whose stories have not and may not be posted are largely people we can no longer find. They've dropped off the face of the earth, like Jane Aumerle, Dotty Barry, and others. I routinely post hard copy fliers at zines looking for these lost authors and sometimes they turn up. If I can't get their permission, I can't post their stuff, that wouldn't be ethical. There are a very, very few number of authors who come from print zine culture who are not yet, and may never be, comfortable with net publication. But the few who feel that way are in the minority. Most authors have given me their blessing to produce their stuff for the net. We just haven't gotten it all done. So hang in, there, it's coming. I can't promise you about Murder, since I have not been in contact with the author yet, but I hope to contact her in the future. I don't know what she'll say. She's been out of the fandom for a long time. But it's her story.
So, I think you're laboring under a misconception about a lack of interest in net publishing simply because you aren't aware of what's going and has been going on in zine archiving all this time. It's a lot of work. It took me an entire year to get Thousandth Man alone posted. But as for any of these authors' "scorning" the net, the evidence disputes this totally. And again, many of these zines, both in print and out, are available through the S&H Lending Library. The generosity of many editors is making it possible for us to offer many in-print zines.
I hope that clears up this misconception.
Flamingo
[Candy]:I don't think the whole fandom scorns it by any means. Flamingo is obviously putting a lot of effort into 'net publishing fiction, I'm on a couple of other lists that are *alive* with it, and our response to the Slash Virtual Season has indicated that there are plenty of netfic fans out there.
I think we've heard some vocal opinions from folks in the past who have essentially dismissed 'net fiction (which is written and published online, vs. the 'net publication of previously released zines) with the assumption it is all inferior/poorly written/unedited etc. I agree there's plenty of that out there, but there's plenty of material in zines that falls into the same category. It's like labeling dark fiction all "good" or "bad". There are flashes of brilliance in pretty much every category of fiction, as well as mediocrity, and poor writing. What troubles me is to hear people dismiss the whole body of work strictly because of the medium in which it's published. Of course, that's their right. But I think that's part of what's contributed to the feeling that netfic is scorned. At least, it's what contributed to my feeling that netfic wasn't really valued or respected by the fandom as much as zinefic. I'm delighted to see that's not the case, and the virtual season project was a very positive eye-opener to that fact.
Just because an author *doesn't* put her work on the 'net doesn't make her stuffy or elitist (again, strictly my opinion!). I have probably 90% of everything I've written on the 'net--I would estimate 80% of it was written for the net and published there originally, possibly exclusively. I have one story in a zine that, by agreement with the publisher, won't be 'net posted. I have a few other stories that have been published in zines that no one is stopping me from posting on my site. Those stories will go up eventually, but I haven't had time to work on my site in *ages*. Hence, they sit and gather dust for now--not because I'm an elitist, but because I haven't perfected cloning yet and therefore only have one of myself to handle the various things I have to/want to do in a given day. I guess what I'm driving at is that people have a lot of reasons for not putting everything they write on the 'net, many of which probably aren't related to wanting to deny access to their work to fans who want to read it.
As a fan who has come into fandom via the 'net, and done most of my publishing that way, I am a strong proponent of 'net fiction. At the same time, I don't think anyone should feel pressured to jump into the vast ocean that is the Internet if they aren't comfortable doing so. If you wrote a story assuming it would be hard-copy printed and passed around among a small audience, you may not want your name or work in a medium that is open to literally *millions* of people. (Granted, I don't think any net authors have "millions" of readers <LOL>, but the potential exposure is there for anything available online.) Sure, you can adopt a pseudonym, but if you don't have a comfort level with net-publishing, you shouldn't feel pressured to do it. I think any author has a right to do what she chooses with her work. There is no moral obligation, IMO, to publish it anywhere.
The only time I have a moral problem with the zine issue is when I feel someone is making big bucks off the sale of zines--getting rich off the fans, in other words. I don't think that happens often. I think the vast majority of people producing and selling zines are probably functioning at cost or at a loss by the time they'd figure up their time and all their incidentals. I think between lending libraries and the generosity of others, and used zine sales, most fans who *really* *desperately* want to get their hands on zine-published fiction probably can at some point. Maybe not every single story, but I'd guess most of it. I've never felt this fandom was elitist about sharing its goodies.
JMHO...
[Keri]: A form of elitism? Wait a second here. What about the people who aren't online or don't have access to a computer? Don't they have a right to read fan-fiction, too? Or what about the people who simply prefer holding a hard copy "book" in their hands to read? I truly don't mean to step on anyone's budget or to imply that buying zines is necessarily inexpensive, but we're not talking about a new car either. As in all things, it's a choice. If you don't want to purchase or can't afford to purchase a zine, there is plenty of wonderful fiction to read on the net, but I think that saying zines are a form of elitism, is in my opinion, painting with kind of a broad brush....I think Flamingo just expressed the work she's doing to bring zines to the net. This is a great thing for all of us, and I support her 100% in this endeavor, however, I will also always support the publication of zines. A zine is a culmination of months of work. Not only by the contributing writers, but the artists, editors, and publisher as well. I'm sorry, but to me your analogy is akin to saying that movies shouldn't be made because they cost money to get into, and everything should just be on free television. I like to go to the movies. I hate what they cost now, but I enjoy going to them and eating my popcorn that never tastes the same at home. It's a treat, and maybe purchasing zines is a treat, too, but it isn't elitism in my opinion. It's a choice of how you want your entertainment.
[O.L.]: If zines are a form of elitism then are books sold in stores elitist aswell? Not everyone can afford to purchase them. Should all those works be on the net somewhere? Yeah, you can say that books are in libraries, but not everyone has free access to a library, either. In our district, if you live on one of the reserves you don't have free access to the library as the Band Councils haven't paid taxes to the Regional Districts for over ten years and if you're living on band land you have to purchase a library card for $75 a year.
Should all music be available free of charge on the net? Don't buy any CDs at the store - just get them free. (Oh, and don't buy the discs to copy them onto either. Someone should give those to you, I guess.) How about art? Should all art be free for the having? Or, like Keri said, movies should all be free on the net? TV? How about net access? Should everyone who wants it have it free? Mine's not free, I have to pay for it. I don't like reading on the monitor so I have to print off anything I want to re-read, should someone be giving me the paper, ink, printer, etc so I can read fic where and when I want?
Zines are work for all parties involved and why shouldn't someone get a little bit back for all that work? Even if it is only a nicely bound book that they can take into bed with them or into the tub for that matter. I like books (yeah, could be just the bibliophile in me, but...), I like zines (hell, I LOVE zines). Why shouldn't I have them if I want? If that makes me an elitist, then so be it. I'm willing to share them with others, I've traded out-of-print zines with other fans, I've lent them to my friends, I've even offered to copy a few of the real obscure ones for the lending library. If that all makes me an elitist them I'm damn proud to be an elitist!
[Creed C.]: Yep, capitalism in its basic format is elistism. Books for money to. The commodication of knowledge. Very dangerous on a theoretical level. Okay, so I'm a socialist and that reflects in my idealogy. But I have a live and let live attitude. I let the fluffy bunnies fics live and multiple and the zines too. But I have every right to express my opinion.
[Carrie]: As one socialist to another, I must point out that a group of writers and an editing team, most of whom no doubt *work* for their living, i.e. have a worker's relationship to the means of production rather than *owning* the means of production (as in the actual definition of "capitalist" = one who amasses capital), donating considerable time and energy after their tiring day jobs, to say nothing of utilizing a portion of their own salaries (to pay for printing), to the production of a zine and then selling that zine to make back cost of production andshipping, is *not* capitalism.
Rich people who own factories and pay poor people to work in them are capitalists. I'd be willing to bet most of us here work for our livings.
I assure you that Flamingo, or any other zine publisher for that matter, isn't growing rich off the blood and sweat of the proletariat. Quite the opposite. People who make zines work their asses off to do it, and charging money for those zines is the only way those zines can be produced. (I personally know zine editors who *lose* money to get their zines out.) Leftist newspapers have to charge, too, btw, otherwise they wouldn't be able to exist.
The other thing is, if you ever change your mind and want to read a zine you're heard about, I think you might surprised at how kind and helpful people in fandom can be.
[Creed C.]: Ahem, I did say and I quote, "And I do believe everyone has a right to dowhatever they like, net publishing or not..." Therefore, everyone has a right to buy and or produce hard copy zines as they see fit. But realistically the majority of slash is on the internet right now, therefore, it is the centre of my universe. And yes I do believe it is a form of elitism. Didn't say it was the only form of elitism, now did I?
Creed, the nasty little proletariot
[M]: Wow, my plan to oppress the members of SH fandom by selling them zines has been found out! Certainly I don't deserve to make back any of the money I spent on those zines, & God knows the publishers shouldn't have charged me anything--what were they thinking?! The very idea that they should make back their material costs (forget time; no matter how much you charged for a zine, you wouldn't make what your time was worth). It's only the reader, who produces nothing more than the very occasional LOC who is deserving of anything. [M], going out on the street corner to give away her remaining zines to those huddled masses, yearning to read slash
[Gayle]:I'm sure this has already been answered and as I only own the one zine I have a story in, I have to admit I *prefer* net-published stories, but I can certainly see the attraction to Zines. There is a certain statisfaction in holding a book in your hands, I love them, have tons of them in plastic containers in the garage because I don't have room for them in the house and refuse to give them up. And, at least I think, artwork comes through much clearer in printed materials than on most websites. Not to mention how truly hard it is to curl up in bed with a computer. Plus, unless you've found a way to get a free computer and free internet access that doesn't involve constant annoying pop-up ads (and if you have, please share how) net fiction is hardly free either.
I certainly don't see how Zines could be considered elitist. They're advertised on list, sold on websites and off tables at conventions, made available to the public at large, and in most cases eventually net published. In this fandom there's even a lending library to allow people who don't want to or can't afford to buy them to read them. No one is *kept* from owning zines.