Talk:Timeline of Slashed Sources

What about gen/het/femslash?

Title should be changed to: Timeline of Slashed shows before 2000, which is killer long, but much clearer.

Could the title please be something more inclusive? Possibly Early Shows with Fannish Followings? So long as it's inclusive of het, femslash, gen, etc.--Ari 20:56, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

If the page becomes inclusive, the text needs to change as well -- right now the entry says it's a list of slashed shows, not shows with fan followings. Otherwise I agree that the title needs to specify that this is a timeline of slashed shows.--Penknife 22:15, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Is there really a distinction between those histories, though? Certainly (boy)slash fandom follows a certain trajectory through important texts, and femslash fandom has its own pivotal moments, but every show on this list has at the very least gen written about it, and many of the later shows had large het/femslash/gen followings.--Ari 22:29, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

The problem is the other direction -- if this was for gen as well, there would be three times as many shows, making it virtually unusable for a slash timeline. I think if people want a gen version, they should start with this, and expand it for their uses -- rather than dilute the slash version.

I'm going to go ahead and move it to Timeline of Slashed Shows before 2000, not because I want to cut off discussion of whether it should be inclusive of other genres, but because I agree that "Canon Timeline" is a really confusing title for this article. It can always be moved again if need be.--Penknife 23:01, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Major vs Minor

I would put both Hardcastle and McComick and 21 Jump Street as minor--Sherrold 00:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead and move them. I didn't get that there was a major and minor section. --rache 00:59, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't put Firefly or House as major slash fandoms. Especially when NCIS (Gibbs/DiNozzo), the old BSG (Starbuck/Apollo), DS9 (Garak/Bashir), X-Men (where do I start?) and ER (Kim/Kerry was a major f/f fandom) are listed as small. Two fandoms I couldn't find in either list were Robin of Sherwood (some of the first slash I read was from a RoS zine) and Once a Thief (Vic/Mac!). Some of the shows on the minor slash fandom list seem out of place. If it was on TV, you can find slash for it; that doesn't make it a slash fandom. Otherwise every fandom would be a slash fandom which would make the list more or less useless. Shows I would remove from that list are: The Middleman (two het canon relationships, one possible femslash pairing and I've only seen one f/f story so far), The Pretender (het and gen, yes, but slash other than the occasional crossover?), Profiler (het and gen; I can't remember any slash activity that would put it in the same league as NCIS or DS9), Brimstone (I've never seen more than maybe ten slash stories. Is there a secret stash that I missed? If yes, where?! *want, want*), The 13th Warrior (was certainly slashy, but I can't remember seeing a lot of slash fiction), Moonlight (a het fandom; maybe the occasional slash story, but certainly not enough to characterize it as a minor slash fandom). I have doubts about most of the more recent shows, actually. It reads more like a list of shows that might have a fandom than a list of minor slash fandoms.--Doro 10:21, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I added Moonlight because it has slash comms with a few hundred members where stories are more or less regularly posted. So I'd argue its slash side is not that much smaller than the gen/het side, it's just not a large fandom. I can certainly see it removed for being a smallish fandom, or not particularly significant for slash is general, but then the cut-off points for relevance here need to be defined, as you point out with several other examples.--Ratcreature 10:37, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, while it certainly isn't large this <a href="http://zeram.tripod.com/Stonefic/fiction.html">Brimstone slash archive</a> has more than ten stories (granted it's still only something like fifty or so), which you have probably seen, but I thought I'd link you in case you haven't. I never seen or read Brimstone, but for a while it seemed popular enough, I mean I got who the characters were through fannish osmosis, so it doesn't seem out of place to me on a list. --Ratcreature 10:49, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Fandom queries

Did the original Kung Fu really have a slash fandom around it? (If so, dare I ask who Kwai Chang was paired with? I am having horrifying visions of Master Po asking young Grasshopper to "find the snake"...) The KF slash (but mostly gen) fandom I'm familiar with is the sequel show from the 1990s, Kung Fu: The Legend Continues. --Arduinna 01:00, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Nope, you're right and I'm wrong -- it should have been the later The Legend Continues one. I've fixed it.--Sherrold 17:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

As the page name says 'Before 2000'....

Why are there shows through 2007 in the table? --rache 14:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I assumed because they started before 2000 and ended after, like SG-1, and the end dates are listed for all the others.--Ratcreature 14:41, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, is there a reason not to carry this through to the present? It's only eight more years, and I don't think there are more than four or five more big shows (SGA, SPN, House, Torchwood, and ... what else?)--Penknife 15:10, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Smallville for sure. BTW, if it lists slash fandoms rather than tv shows (which it seems to do with TPM on it) Harry Potter certainly needs to be listed as a big slash fandom. LOTR too. Comics? Personally I think it would make sense to just cut it off earlier, i.e. limit this to a timeline before the internet went mainstream, like pre-90s, rather than trying to list slash after it mushroomed everywhere.--Ratcreature 17:30, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, given the choice of adding or subtracting, I went ahead and added. Feel free to keep adding to the major and minor lists.--Sherrold 17:41, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I just think the description now doesn't fit the content well, not just because TPM is a movie, but also because it says US aired tv shows, and I always thought The Professionals wasn't on US tv?--Ratcreature 17:45, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Good point, it now says, Sources that acquired slash fandoms, and includes HP and others.

How can I get the Table to appear at the top?

As soon as I added a header for the list of minor fandoms, the table dropped below it, and nothing I can do brings it back, even though it's at the top of the file.--Sherrold 18:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Fixed! You had an extra - at the end of the table. --rache 18:58, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Proposed new title: Timeline of Slashed Sources

or Timeline of Slashed Source Not perfect, but better, yes?--Sherrold 20:20, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I assume that's a typo and should be Sources, like the header? (Other than that, I think it's a good title.) --Kyuuketsukirui 21:57, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

slash in some newer fandoms?

I don't really know whether Alias or Lost have a slash fandom that would be worth listing for the smaller slash fandoms. I don't read these but see fic posted sometimes, but can't recall the pairings, because they are ensemble shows. So I don't know whether to add them or not.--Ratcreature 22:33, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Both Alias and Lost used to have archives dedicated to slash, and both are gone now. That may be its own commentary. For Alias, it was probably Vaughn/Weiss, Vaughn/Will, and anything involving Sark. For Lost, it's strange because the cast make-up has changed so much. There's some Jack/Boone, Jack/Sawyer, and Sawyer/Sayid that I remember.

It's always depressing how shortlived some websites are. When I wanted to add archives to the CSI page like half the ones I remembered from as little as three years ago or so weren't there anymore. :(--Ratcreature 22:47, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I know that last season some Lost fans on LJ were shipping Desmond/Daniel and Desmond/Sayid. I think there was also some Desmond/Charlie earlier. I think it makes sense to list it as a minor slash fandom. --Sophinisba 00:18, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Huh. I guess that makes sense. (I personally have my Desmond&Penny4EVAH! hat on.) --Nestra 00:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Chart

I've added a chart visually presenting this data, go ahead and edit it if you like. Does popslash have an ending date? I mean, I know it's still going, but nothing like it once was, right? --Betty 20:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Great idea! I noticed one thing, though. The BSG line starts in 2000, it should be 2003. The weird thing is, when I tried to edit it, it was written as '03, so I don't know what's wrong.--Xenakis 22:23, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

It is somehow not easy to find where to edit the chart. I couldn't find where to click on this page but had to go to http://fanlore.org/wiki/Template:TimelineCanon#Timeline I hope I did it right, the syntax is a bit convoluted it seems, anyway it looks like BSG now starts again in 2003 not 2000.--Ratcreature 22:37, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

AOTC killing TPM?

I guess Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan became less popular but Anakin/Obi-Wan had a real upsurge, so I'm not sure it really harmed SW slash production overall. I think the height of Q/O popularity was already waning, iirc, so there would have been less of that either way, I think.--Ratcreature 17:41, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it's accurate to say it killed TPM, although not SW, since TPM was really all about the Q/O. The fandom after that was less of a 'large' fandom, is my impression. --Betty 18:50, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

But the bar is for SW slash, is it not? And I find it a bit unfair that AOTC is listed as "killing" the previously active pairing in that fandom, for the purpose of this list implying to have killed SW slash as a relevant fandom, rather than listed as bringing in a new pairing and new people. IMO, barring another Q/O centric movie TPM would have gone the natural slash fandom age cycle anyway. I had been reading TPM for example as one of my major fandoms, but by the time AOTC premiered I had already drifted away from the fandom along with scores of others for the next shiny thing, yet AOTC revitalized my interest in SW. Yes, Anakin/Obi-Wan was never a large mega-fandom, but I find this description still biased. --Ratcreature 19:02, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I just took the text from the chart above. Is there a more neutral way of phrasing it that still manages to indicate that the fandom had declined as a major force? --Betty 19:04, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea, I object to this phrasing in the table too. Why not just list the date for the AOTC release and leave it for the fandom articles to sort out the details and whys and hows of popularity or pairings and SW slash as a whole and the differing opinions on that? With the other SW movies there is also no indication what their popularity was at which point in time or end dates. AOTC and ROTJ both contributed to SW slash fandom, even if they didn't bring in as huge a surge as TPM.--Ratcreature 19:19, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Display problem

The graphical representation cuts off on the right, at least for me, making some entries virtually unreadable (see here). Is there a way to avoid this? --Dora 18:40, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

The max-width for it is set to what doesn't deform the page in my browser, which is what's doing it, I think. I could try setting it in an iframe to allow scrolling? --Betty 18:47, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

That's excellent, thank you! This really does need the scrollbar. --Dora 19:05, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

There is also the possibility of leaving out the LOTR book fandom publication? That would get rid of much of the empty left. I don't think it was slashed right away in any case.--Ratcreature 19:07, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I think you're right. I guess it should start w/ B7? --Betty 19:11, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

ETA, and by B7, I mean MUNCLE, obviously. *facepalm* Betty 19:12, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I think that would work better for the scale.--Ratcreature 19:20, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

You know, the thing is, it DEFINITELY works better for the scale, but … I was under the impression that the first slashed source was Holmes/Watson. Which would really screw this all up. Not to mention all the classics slash the Aesthetes wrote. Am I just being a pain in the ass? Probably…--nextian 19:56, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

But did Holmes/Watson have a slash fandom when it was published? I understood the timeline to be timeline of slash fandoms that go with sources, not a list of publication dates. Also, Holmes/Watson isn't exactly a huge fandom.--Ratcreature 20:00, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think it's mostly large slash fandoms right now, as neither BSG v1 or BSG v2 were/are huge slash fandoms, though BSGV2 is certainly a large fandom. Sorta the same thing with Firefly, actually. Huge fandom, but was it a big slash fandom? Otherwise, yeah. They all look like big slash fandoms to me. --rache 20:22, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

The source I have for the existence of Sherlock Holmes slash pre-Star Trek fandom is from the usually well-researched bellatrys' review of the Passion of the Christ. As I've mentioned here and there, now and then (going to and fro as I do) — the idea of canon, of retconning, and of nitpicking for fun and profit, not merely in flameage, comes from the same fandom that gave us fanfiction, profic, fanon and even slash, way before Gene Roddenberry was on the media scene — The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes. Yes, it was Holmes fans who first obsessed in such a way as to make more than the sporadic headline (things like moody teenage readers of The Sorrows of Young Werther dressing like their idol and even shooting themselves in imitation)… She gives no source. Which is something that I have always bemoaned because I really, really want to read Holmes/Watson from 1900. But! That is my evidence. Any Game players around here to verify/disprove?

I think it's probably true (as rache says) that it's not a Major Slashed Source — but when a similar general fanfic timeline goes up, it definitely qualifies, and it is going to screw up the scrolling like nobody's business, so we may still need to consider a workaround. ANYWAY. TL;DR--nextian 20:24, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd imagine a general fanfic timeline would be split in parts with more or less natural divisions, like fandom befor classic SF zines, fandom in zines but before media fandom split off, internet fandom… I mean, nobody wants to horizontally scroll for ages. But her that is just not necessary IMO for the graphic to provide a visual for what the table says.--Ratcreature 20:31, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I think we ought to have a different timeline on a different scale for that sort of stuff. Maybe 'prehistory of slash.' I mean, for one, they predate the vocabulary of 'slash', so we can say in one sense they weren't 'slash', whatever they were. --Betty 23:21, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

DMC killing Sparrington?

I am having a "someone is wrong on the Internet" moment about saying that DMC killed Sparrington, and/or PotC slash in general. I know the Norrington characterization in DMC screwed with a lot of Sparrington writers' take on the pairing, to the point that many of them took up denialfic as a way of life. But it's still a popular PotC pairing, and I feel like we're ignoring the entire genre of DMC-compliant (or at least DMC-inspired) Sparrington.

I'd really argue for just putting the air date of AWE as "last aired" for PotC and leaving discussion of the impact of DMC on Sparrington fandom for the Sparrington page, when that's created. Anyone have arguments against that?--Penknife 01:06, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

I think that's a great way to go. --rache 02:26, 23 February 2009 (UTC)