Talk:Filing Off The Serial Numbers

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Would it be alright to add examples? Something like novel X was a fanfic in fandom Y?--Doro 15:38, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I was wondering about that too! Since you have Tropical Storm, I think that one would be good, since it's clearly in both the pro and the fan camp, but for others, I am really hesitant to mention both the pro author novel and the fan novel in the same context; I think most times we'll have to do either one or the other. --rache 15:18, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
The uber novels are easy; there are between 200 and 300 of them and some of these stories are still available online. With regard to other examples, I'm hesitant too, that's why I asked. I think linking to a novel and saying it comes from a specific fandom would be okay, but then the fan pseud and the title of the fanfic shouldn't be mentioned. However, I don't know what to do with books where the print title is the same as the fanfic title. I think there is a former Horatio Hornblower fanfic where this might be the case.--Doro 15:38, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Maybe on this page we stick to fanworks, unless there's a direct connection already made, the way it is with the uber stuff. What do you think? --rache 15:47, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
You are right, there are good reasons for sticking to fanworks here. I just think the other way around would be more interesting for readers, though. At least it would be for me. I'm reading a lot of profic with m/m content and when I get this feeling that it might have been fanfic once, I always try to figure out which fandom it came from because it drives me nuts if I don't know. *g* And then there is the problem that more often than not the fanfic was removed (if it was on the net to begin with) or isn't availabe because it was in a zine that is difficult to get your hands on (if it's still available). Either way there is nothing you can link to. --Doro 16:14, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
There are fan-turned-pro novels that are 20 years old now -- I don't think mentioning one of "Mel Keegan"s or (damn, who wrote The Cost of Love -- the S/H novel turned Pro, oh yeah, Alexis Rogers) now is going to cause a problem.--Sherrold 16:35, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
I dunno, I don't think that's our choice to make; I think it falls under the "don't out people without their permission" policy, and it's safer not to add any that aren't already explicitly linked publicly somewhere. For older authors/stories, we have no way of knowing if they want to be outed. And even if there is a "you're no longer fannishly protected after X years" cutoff point, we would have to make that very clear on the page, so that people didn't see examples and assume that they could just add anything they can think of, including recent work that authors were at pains to conceal. (I'm honestly not even keen on saying "X novel used to be fanfic in Y fandom", because some authors really don't want a fandom connection made to their work or themselves.) Basically, I think this is something that needs to stay word-of-mouth. --Arduinna 18:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
What if we made it so that only the author of the fanwork could put it on this page? That way they could decide what level of disclosure made them comfortable; the only issue I can see is a notability problem, but I would be willing to skimp on that for this article because it's such a fascinating one. --Emma 19:33, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be okay to add examples to this page if the author has been open about it "on the record" (in an interview, or on her official site, or something like that.) I can think of one example right now-- a 2006 romance novel where the author clearly states on her own site that the hero "might" "allegedly" be the Eighth Doctor. I feel like it would be fair to add that one. If there's nowhere that the author has stated on the record that she was "filing off the serial numbers," I agree with Emma that it should be up to the author. -- Liviapenn 19:54, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't know, I think the being open "on the record" part is a tricky issue. Just by publishing it as fanfic first an author creates the possibility that someone will see it later and recognize it as that fanfic they once read, which is actually not a bad thing. That's how the author of a Chakotay/Paris Voyager AU learned that another author had taken the story, filed off the serial numbers and published it first as ebook and then in print. A reader recognized it and asked the fanfic author about it. I think what we can all agree on is that it's not okay to create a connection between book author and fan pseud when the connection hasn't already been made. --Doro 20:34, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, we definitely all agree that it would be wrong to create a connection between a fan pseud and an author pseud without specific permission from the fan/pro involved. But there's a difference between saying "Pro Author Suzy is actually Fan Susie; her novel X is based on fanfic Y," and saying "Pro Author Suzy has acknowledged in an interview [with citation] that her main character in novel Y was originally based on Mr. Spock." What I'm saying is, as long as the *pro author* is open about her inspirations or sources or whatever-- if she has acknowledged it in an official interview, or somewhere on their own official site, that their novel is the product of "filing off the serial numbers" -- then I think it's fair to include that here. -- Liviapenn 21:18, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
I think if the novel is a product of "filing off the serial numbers", it's fair to mention that anyway, even if the author didn't say so in an interview or you just don't know that such an interview exists. Pointing out that a book used to be a Professionals AU and that there might still be elements in there where you can recognize a popular trope, a piece of fanon or a particular style that was common during that time in slash fandom is not the same as connecting an author name with a fan pseud. All the books I know about are books where I read it somewhere online; none of the sources were author interviews or something like that. Anyway, I'm not married to this. I'm happy to stick to the Xena ubers if that is what people are more comfortable with and leave the rest to someone else. --Doro 22:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Doro, if it's all right, I really think we should stick to specific author consent -- there's at least one example I can think of where it is totally easy to find out that the author wrote it first as fanfic, and yet the author specifically doesn't want anyone connecting the two. To subtly allude to the elephant in the room. I just don't want to open up any outing issues that we don't have to, y'know? Although I would love to hear any of the examples you could think of myself. ;) --Emma 00:36, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Also, dude, that Chakotay/Paris thing sounds FASCINATING and should totally go on this wiki page! -- Liviapenn 21:19, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm still not sure whether I should be miffed or happy about my bad timing; I bought the book a few days before the similarities to the AU were revealed and the publisher stopped selling the book. Now you can buy it new for $300 and used for $100. --Doro 22:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I think we can go too far worrying about outing

When I type '"THE COST OF LOVE" alexis rogers' into Google, of the first four hits: two reference the S/H novel, the other two the gay pro novel. She changed neither the name of the novel, nor her pseud. I don't think that mentioning that fact can be considered outing.

Earlier examples


-- that may be as far back as the Google newsgroup archives go. Sandminer (talk) 06:47, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, These could be added under "non-fandom" examples?MeeDee (talk) 07:19, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
Not quite sure how "rec.arts.sf-lovers" or "rec.arts.sf.written" count as non-fandom ? Sandminer (talk) 08:00, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps use them to show how the phrase migrated among fans from referring to commercial fic to fanfic. Ex: By the early 1990s, the phrase was used among fans when discussing professionally released fic or media. By the xxxx, the phrase began to be used by fans referring to the practice of repurposing fanficton for commercial publication."--MeeDee (talk) 17:08, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
I added some of the usenet examples to the page and tried to clarify the different nuances in usage.--aethel (talk) 20:51, 11 June 2016 (UTC)