Category talk:Books & Literature

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Books & Lit scope discussion, 2012

Okay, wait, help. Seeing that a bunch of fandoms that would fit under the category "Books & Literature" with (sub)categories of their own in the Fanlore sitemap didn't have the parent category "Books & Literature" in their main category page, I added them for some, to make the whole "finding things by browsing fanlore (using the categories)" easier -- because without an indication that there are subcategories, there wouldn't be a way for a visitor to the Category:Books & Literature page to see that categories and subcategories for certain Books & Literature fandoms exist.

That is, it seems logical (for that goal of getting people to find things by browsing the categories goal) that every category in a fandom should be categorized with its parent category until there is no parent to further categorize with. (e.g. (making stuff up) Star Trek gen zines -> Star Trek zines -> Star Trek fandom categorized as Live-action Television, so the Live action Television category page would show that Star Trek has lots of interesting subcategories for visitors to browse.)

But now I'm confused, because what to categorize with a parent cat and what not seems super not-clear.

OT1H, Help:Categories says:

"In Fanlore's sitemap, categories are arranged hierarchically. To make a category the "child" or sub-category of another category, you can "categorize" the category, exactly like normal pages, by adding Category:Parent to the page. Categories should be linked only to their parent this way, not to their grandparent, etc.
Categories can have more than one parent. For example, see Category:Merlin Podfic.
Once categories are created, you can always rearrange them in the hierarchy if it makes sense to do so.
"Top-level" or "main" categories are uncategorized."

but it does not explain whether a fandom's parentiest category (i.e., Category:Fandoms by Canon Type) is a "top-level" or "main" category. Nor does Help:Categorising Guidelines, nor does the Fanlore:Sitemap page or its talk page. The Category:Fandoms by Canon Type page also does not say whether it is a "top-level" or "main" category, and doesn't give guidelines or links on how to apply parent categories to categories that fall under the categories in the Fandoms by Canon Type page.

The Help:Fandoms page says:

"The main fandom page should be added to the appropriate format subcategory under Fandoms by Canon Type. For example, if it's a book, add the Books & Literature category. If the fandom source texts include more than one media format (television and film, television and radio, etc.), add all applicable categories.
You should also add the appropriate fandom category, or create one if it doesn't exist. If the fandom page doesn't have a fandom category, instead add Category:Fandoms by Source Text to the bottom of the page.
Fandom category structure
Fandoms documented on Fanlore fall under one of two types: Fandoms by Source Text or Fandoms by Community. The vast majority of fandom articles are about "Fandoms by Source Text" (e.g. Harry Potter, Star Trek, Naruto, Final Fantasy, Lotrips); "Fandoms by Community" include larger communities (anime fandom) or represent different ways of approaching objects of fannish interest (media fandom, science fiction fandom, vidding, filking)."

But it does not explicitly explain whether once a fandom has enough pages to get its own fandom-category, that highest-level category page for the fandom should (or should not) get the "appropriate format subcategory under Fandoms by Canon Type."

The Help:Fandom Categories and its talk page and the Fanlore:Fandom as a Category and its talk page only talk about subcategories, but do not explain when and how to use parent categories, or if adding the Fandom by Canon Type parent category for a fandom category is a good or bad thing.

Meanwhile, the Category: Books & Literature page itself says:

"The "main" fandom article and not the fandom category should be listed here."

So wait, does that mean we don't want visitors to the Category: Books & Literature to see if a fandom listed there (or one on the Category:Live-action Television, etc.) has subcategories? In that case, how do we get visitors who try to use the category structure to browse fanlore to find out, from visiting a Fandom by Canon Type page, that some of those fandoms do have lots of interesting subcategories they might want to check out and click through to?

I'm so confused. --Sk 20:44, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

A "top-level" category in this context is a category with no parent. Fandoms by Canon Type is not a top-level category because it is a subcategory under Fan Communities.
Basically, when we created "Fandoms by Canon Type" last year, it broke all the rules. Firstly, it is the only category that exists solely to categorize categories--no pages belong in it, and I'm having trouble thinking of one that would fit. Second, it was set up as an alternate way to navigate the fandoms, so users requested that only pages and NOT fandom categories be added under Books, Television, etc. Personally, I find this arrangement more asthetically pleasing, especially for the television category, which is huge, but it does create an inconsistency in the way we apply categories and leads to confusion; I would be okay with changing this rule if everyone agrees that fandom categories should be cross-categorized under format categories. Thirdly, as stated on the category page, the format categories there are overlapping rather than hierarchical because we tried to have our cake and eat it, too--there are serious unresolvable disagreements over how to divide media "formats".--æþel 00:54, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Aha, I can see how this might've been contentious (and sorry for you having to undo my well-intentioned but confused and not in keeping with policy changes re parent-catting from earlier).
But boy oh boy it does seem a) confusing, b) somewhat inconsistent, and (as one who would very much like to help make fanlore more accessible not only to new editors but also to new just-reading users) c) to go against what seems to be another key idea(l)/policy of having visitors able to browse and navigate using fanlore's category structures from the top on down...
I completely agree that having subcategories on the several Fandoms by Canon Type pages is not very aesthetic, but, but, but... it would be rather more consistent (and functional for letting visitors see at a glance which fandoms are populated enough to have their own category or maybe even subcategories vs. which ones just have the one overview page), even though aesthetically less desirable.
The overlapping rather than strictly hierarchical format categories seems like a reasonable compromise to have come to -- and also (I assume?) in keeping with the Fanlore:Categories "yay, cross-categorization!" policy of
"This means that pages can (and should, where appropriate!) be cross-categorised. For example:
The Organization for Transformative Works could be categorised under Category:Organizations & Corporations and Category:Activism
AnimeMusicVideos.org could be categorised in Category:Websites and also Category:Anime Music Video
Cross-categorisation means that classification of articles is not a restrictive practice; it allows readers to locate articles through various paths and interpretations."
Anyhow, after much tl;dr, I would ask if a (concise, which sorry, as we see again I'm not very good at) explanation -- or clear link to longer explanation/background of the current policy (to not allow fandom categories but just the main fandom overview page to be categorized in the various Fandoms by Canon Type pages) -- could please be added to the Help:Categories, Category:Fandoms by Canon Type, Help:Categorising Guidelines, Fanlore:Sitemap, Help:Fandoms, Help:Fandom Categories, and Fanlore:Fandom as a Category pages, so other/future enthusiastic editors won't run amok/aground and get confused about this topic? --Sk 02:13, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

fixing category structure to match the rest of the wiki

I've been adding the fandom categories back under here and hope to finish this week. I'll take another look at the help pages as well if someone doesn't beat me to it.--æþel (talk) 19:17, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

suggestion: fix usability probably with multiple alphabetic lists

I finally, after years, figured out that the wiki makes two separate lists, depending on whether there's only one page or there are many. In this category. that distinction is completely uninteresting to most users, and in fact, hugely confusing. With the new disclosure arrows, it's easy to see which categories do have multiple pages, so there's no usability problem with interspersing them. There may be technical problems, this looks automatic with the wikimedia framework, but really, categories could be so much useful.

Proposal: make one alphabetic list in category pages -- regardless of how many pages use the category tag.

--Msilfan (talk) 23:26, 28 January 2017 (UTC)