Can't we just buy you an IPod

Meta
Title:	Can't we just buy you an IPod
Creator:	Embitca
Date(s):	August 10, 2005
Medium:	online
Fandom:	Buffy and Angel in a peripheral sense
Topic:
External Links:	Can't we just buy you an IPod page 1, Archived version Can't we just buy you an IPod page 2, Archived version Can't we just buy you an IPod page 3, Archived version Can't we just buy you an IPod page 4, Archived version Can't we just buy you an IPod page 5, Archived version
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Can't we just buy you an IPod is a short comment plus links by Embitca posted at Fandom Wank in response to a fan's proposal regarding fanworks and profit.

The post generated five pages of comments, some of which are excerpted below.

Introduction

"Remember the good olde days when people on your friendslist just hinted around for you to buy them IPods and paid LJ time?? Well, I'm sorry, but that is so 2004 and we have inflation to contend with! Now you can buy a fanfic writer a WHOLE YEAR OFF WORK so she can finish her WIPs for a show that's been off the air for a few years now. Someone should let Joss Whedon know, or at least contact the other writers who helped her write it in the first place. Will they all get a share of the profits?"

Some Topics Discussed

• Fandom and Profit
• Original Fiction
• cousinjean
• the price of efiction, paperback and hardcover books
• fannish etiquette
• entitlement
• claiming a work as your own despite the fact it has multiple authors
• CharityWank and Cassie Claire
• is asking for money from other fans bad?
• previous cases of selling fic and fanart

Original Posts by cousinjean

See cousinjean.

Excerpts from Comments: Page One

• comment by nevadafighter ("Man, she must have balls and they must be HUGE.")

• comment by kroki refur ("Bloooody Hell. That's a whole new level of entitlement right there.")

• comment by jaina ("I clicked on that link fully expecting it to be a show I'd never watched and an author I'd never heard of, so I was really surprised to see who it was. Look, I liked Dancing Lessons, but I'm not about to cough up any money to see it finished. Hell, I'd forgotten about it completely until this post.")

• comment by crickets ("As for the smartest or the dumbest thing she's ever done? My vote says dumbest. There are other ways to get a writing career off the ground. "Pay me a year's salary to write the Great American Novel and I'll throw a fanfic bone or two your way" has got to be choking her flist with WTFBBQ by now. Oy.")

• comment by hylnn ("It would've been better to just take pledges to see she could hit the mark she needs. I understand her motives, and can sympathize, but the methods are just...wrong. It's surprising to see this from her, since I thought she was aware of the sort of backlash Cassie Claire and others have gotten from essentially the same stunt. Up until now, her posts--flocked or no--have been level-headed and drama-free, so I'm still just reeling at this deviation from the norm.")

• comment by dodyskin ("And to make it worse: one of the fics has multiple authors, whom I'm guessing were not consulted. Just guessing.")

• comment by entrenous88 ("Wow -- I was thinking, okay, two or three more authors, but there are something like fourteen people on that list of writers. Her conception that this fic is "hers" is audacious.")

• comment by anonymous ("I'd just like to state for the record that "Dancing Lessons" was a collaborative effort amongst over a dozen fic writers. None of them were contacted regarding this turn of events. So not only is she asking for money to finish fanfic, she's asking for money to finish fanfic that isn't entirely hers. If she gets slapped with a C&D, there are a bunch of other people who could potentially go down with the ship, some of which dropped out of the "project" months ago. She may host the site, do the coding, but the meat and potatoes of it all isn't all hers. If she gets any cash, it should be split between all the writers.")

• comment by workingslacker ("No one tell Lee Goldberg about this.")

• comment by ealusaid ("Seriously does have the potential to ban fanfic forever. Nobody tell anyone about this, for the love of porn.")

• comment by nevernever ("her writing is so good, how can she be this stupid? how can anyone be this stupid?")

• comment by anonymous ("I feel dirty now, as I too have enjoyed "Dancing Lessons" and a few others. But my cold hard cash feels differently, and is currently sleeping in a separate bedroom.")

• comment by bitch queen ("Holy shit. Don't these kids LEARN? Listen, I like fic as much as the next person, but part of the reason I read it is because it's free and easily accessible. And while Dancing Lessons wasn't what I'd call unenjoyable, I can honestly say that it hasn't been eating away at my very soul that it hasn't been finished, yet. In fact, I can't say that there's a single fic I've ever read that I'm THAT attached to. (And I have read a Hell of a lot of fic over the years.)")

• comment by dragonscholar ("I'm having mixed reactions on this one. The cynical side of me is odded out here - pay me to finish my fanfic oh, and to write my novel. I also have to wonder if she has the amount of fans she'd need - to make a good amount (say, 20K), she'd need about 3,300 donors - or if this is arrogance. That ignores ALL the legal and co-authorship issues. The business side of me recalls talk of reviving the idea of "patronage" in the age of the internet to have people support artists, which this reminds me of. The sociologist in me is just gonna watch the fallout.... Admittedly, I don't think patronage necessary means talent is involved, it's just supposed ;) I admit to finding this fascinating in a way. I wonder about the legality, obviously - perhaps if something like this was "support your favorite writer" or "support your favorite writer's pro work" and there's no EXPLICIT statement that its money-for-fanfic, maybe someone could get away with it. I'm not a lawyer, so I can't say for sure. Geez. Imagine a world where battles for money and contributions become a big part of fandom . . .")

• comment by dragonscholar ("The patron thing on the level you mention probably is good to keep in mind. People may support you NOT for quality, but for what they like or what inflates their ego. Which, now that I think of it, the idea of "fanfunding" may WELL be viable. I mean, a person with 5,000 loyal readers who each send in $5 a year would let them make a decent living. Even if they churn out terrible crap with leatherpants!Neville and his torrid affair with Parallel-Earth Evil Colin Creevy, if its what the people want . . .")

• comment by crickets ("Imagine a world where battles for money and contributions become a big part of fandom" Corporate attorneys will make sure that never happens. Garnering patronage for original works by soliciting online is another kettle. It's an interesting concept in theory. It still sounds like asking for a handout though. I'm sorta divided on that, leaning far more toward the "still not such a great idea" side.")

• comment by anonymous ("She also misses the point that often "How's your WIP coming?" is a fandom equivalent of, "How's your health?" Polite smalltalk about a shared interest, not really indicative of someone who cares so much they want to give you money.")

• comment by thebratqueen ("You know, I've had people on my flist who've needed to do the beg for cash thing. It's not pretty but they're honest about it and it's due to them being in dire circumstances, like needing medical help or, you know, food. Things like "I don't want to work, I wanna write fanfic all day!" do not count. Likewise "Plus I've got that wedding coming up and my reception ain't paying for itself." is also not quite the same thing. And you know, I would've even spotted her the wedding thing if she'd left fanfic the hell out of it. I would've thought she had a sense of entitlement a mile wide but hey, if people wanted to throw the internet version of a bridal shower who am I to stop them? But to not only say stop bugging her unless you pay but to also put a price tag on it? (Plus a price tag of a hardback novel - really? Really?) Wow. Balls the size of Alpha Centuri.")

• comment by pyratejenni ("thank you Cassie Claire?" Heh. I have to wonder how many people who saw ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG! with Cassie begging for an iPod and laptops are blowing their stack over this.")

• comment by anonymous ("But CC never begged. She said she wanted and iPod, but never said she expected her flist to buy her one. She said her laptop was stolen , but not that she expected people to buy her a replacement if they ever wanted to find out if Harry and Draco hook up. There's a difference between, "Gee, my life would be all flowers and butterflies should I somehow come into possession of an iPod, poor broke me," and "Give me lots of money or I will never finish our, I mean my, fanfic!"")

• comment by entrenous88 ("The whole "cost of a hardcover book" thing is galling in its way as well, especially since e-books cost nowhere near the price of a hardcover.")

• comment by vassilissa ("Plus, as if profic authors get all the proceeds of their hardback novels, or even their paperback novels.")

Excerpts from Comments: Page Two

• comment by violetsmiles ("First, make a wanky ass post asking for money for fanfic. Next, make a whiny post that explains why you need the money while passive-aggressively asking for more money for an LJ and fandom that you admit to not participating in the way you used to. I don't even know the chick, but I'm stuck between wanting to applaud her big cojones and wanting to spork her for being such a self-involved jackass.")

• comment by rossywar ("When I clicked on the post, I was expecting to see her asking for a dollar or two or something, but the "price of a hard-back novel"?! For the price of a hard-back novel, I would expect a hard-back novel.")

• comment by kenboy ("I'm asking fandom for a pony.")

• comment by anonymous ("Let me take these characters, which ARE NOT MINE, and make money off of them. Unreal. And people will pay her. Because they are suckers. What a sense of entitlement. Being an artist requires work and sacrifice. How is that news to her?")

• comment by ultimate cin ("At least it's not HP wank......")

• comment by jaina ("It absolutely kills me that she's hijacked a site for a COLLABORATIVE FANFIC and used it to pimp herself out.")

Excerpts from Comments: Page Three

• comment by bunnyohare ("Cousinjean isn't playing fair by trying to make money off of copyrighted material. That is The Wrong Thing To Do! I get that. She totally deserves all the flames and wank the Buffy-fen can toss in her direction.")

• comment by splorch ("Seriously. This is the best wank ever.")

• comment by anonymous ("See, the problem is that she thinks she's being attacked for asking for money to help "accomplish her dreams" when the real problem has a whole lot more to do with asking for money for fanfic (which is illegal) and, as much as she may deny it, holding hostage a story that doesn't belong solely to her... that's the effort of many different people... without their permission. We wouldn't all be here if she'd simply gotten on her LJ and asked for assistance in order to spend more time working on her original fic. Some people might not have agreed with her doing something like that, but they would simply have ignored it or groused privately. It wouldn't have set off the firestorm her actual request did.")

• comment by ladycat ("Okay, I admit it. I want to send her an email or post asking her to please reconsider leaving lj and fanfiction. It always makes me sad to see people go. But then my brain reasserts itself. Oh, my god, this woman makes a two year old hell-beast look polite and declarative. "Maybe this is the kick in the pants I need"? Uh, maybe you should've administered it yourself without scaring all of fandom at large with potential lawsuits!")

• comment by zebeckras ("I don't know if anyone's pointed this out yet, but Jean's Story Time original fic archives includes a "Tip Jar" link to her Paypal account. "Consider this my hat. If you like my work, please toss in your change." There is also a link on the DL site, asking to "support Dancing Lessons". These may be fine and good - support original fic, support the costs of the site itself - if not for the fact that the Paypal link for both is to "Dancing Lessons Fan Fiction". Regardless, though, it does sorta make one doubt just how much it took to *ahem* drive her to swallow her pride and "put myself out there like that", given that she's been doing so more quietly for a while now and seems like she'll probably continue. It also takes a LOT of credibility away from her claim that this had nothing to do with selling fanfiction. 9_9"")

• comment from seldomnaughty ("People get stupider every day, don't they? I can only imagine what the internets will look like in ten years -- everyone will be running around saying nothing but "LOL WTF AHAHA" and begging each other for money.")

Excerpts from Comments: Page Four

• comment by kittydesade ("You know, if it's this easy to get paid to write stuff over LJ, why hasn't someone told me before? I've got boatloads of original crap I'd love to get paid for writing instead of schlep at my day job. But nooo. I have to do it the hard way, mailing it all out to publishers and magazines and praying they like me.")

• comment by sheron ("And while we're all laughing, I'm gonna save her fics because if she takes them off the net I'll miss them.")

• comment by anonymous ("You know, the internet, and LJ in particular, is a very peculiar phenomenon. I didn't find this person's post any more wanky than 99% of the other stuff I see. It hasn't been long ago that I saw someone on LJ make an 'I-lost-my-job-because-I-spend-all-my-time-on-fucking-LJ-and-now-the-bill-collectors-are-beating-down-my-door-because-I-couldn't-be-arsed-to-find-another-job-and-I'm-so-fucking-stressed-somebody-help-me-pleeeeeease' post and everyone rallied around her and collected hundreds of $$$ to bail her ass out. People were writing fanfic and doing fanart and every other fannish thing you can think of and auctioning it all off and no one seemed to have a problem with that. The way I see it, this Cousin Jean person is just a little more honest.")

• comment by bankai ("I appreciate your point, but honesty really doesn't create validity when you're doing something that is considered morally wrong by the majority. The point is she's using the intellectual property of other people to bait fans of her work (or whatever) into giving her money. What am I supposed to care if she's admitting as much? Stealing is stealing. I doubt many people would want to be friends with am honest serial killer. Yes, I'm exaggerating in my comparison but...dude, honesty is great, but wrong is wrong.")

• comment by anonymous ("Don't get me wrong - I never said she was right to ask for money. I'm just here goggling at the four pages worth of posts beating her to a bloody pulp when some of the same people involved in the bashing of this girl contributed money and sold fanfic and fanart to help out someone with a sob story, and then patted themselves on the back for being so big-hearted. Poor old Cousin Jean fucked up by being honest instead of creating a nice melodramatic and pathetic story designed to tug at the old heart strings. People are such saps.")

• comment by anonymous ("I've been involved in fandom for years, and I've been reading fandom_wank since way back when it was still over at LJ. My comment here wasn't meant to defend Curious Jean but to point out that what she did isn't all that different than accepting handouts from fellow LJ'ers, and in my years on LJ, I've seen that more than once - once quite recently and involving large sums of money. I'm not sure to what you are referring, so I don't know what to think about that. You're not one of the 'saps' I'm talking about. If you had seen the incident, you would know what I'm saying. The person gave a sob story, she asked for money, and she received, and without anyone calling wank.")

• comment by castellated ("If you had seen the incident, you would know what I'm saying. The person gave a sob story, she asked for money, and she received, and without anyone calling wank." Wow. That's hard to believe. I don't doubt you, mind you. But the story you described seems tailor made for wank, and if I read something like the sob story you detailed there, I'd be whipping out as much "bitchplease" as people are doing in this instance. Odd. Was it a BNF? I'm wondering how it missed FW.")

• comment by anonymous (ani bester) ("Several Harry Potter artists, myself included sold art to raise money for Tsunami victims and there was no wank. (thank GoD!) Alos though at least one HP fanartists has auctioned off his/her art and made (literally) 1,000's. there was a small kerfuffle over this but . . it's legal. All we have to do to make *most* hp fanart legal is not call is Harry Potter. Warner Brothers can only come after us if we use the trade marked name or something that screams Harry Potter like the scar on Harry's head or any of the movie likenesses. WB can't, however, make it illegal to sell a picture of a boy Wizard with a broom and an owl. Or, in the case of the auctioned fanart a blonde boy fucking a back haired boy. =p So it was done, and there was some naysaying, but no wank that I know of.")

• comment by nevadafighter ("Take an alternate example. Not so long ago another author put up a post saying she was going to sell her fanfic. People jumped on her, but instead of the "you're all MEENIES" reaction, she took her post down, apologized, and we moved on. With this . . . she keeps digging herself deeper with every non-humble remark, and I'm sorry that we happen to be annoyed/amused by it.")

• comment by snacky ("Well, yeah. I mean, people are free to give to whomever they want. Who knows, a melodramatic sob story may be true, may be just a huge scam. But people are free to believe it and donate as they'd like, because they see a need, which is how charity works. I mean, look at the whole "give Cassie Claire and her friends laptops" drive - some people thought it was a legitimate need and donated their money. Other people thought it was ridiculous to give money to relatively well-off adults, and didn't. But what the people who gave saw was a need. Cousin Jean fucked up (beyond violating all kinds of fandom rules, like respect for your cowriters, don't sell your fic, don't bring attention from TPTB) because she didn't have a need, she just had a want. She wanted to stay home and write, and she wanted fandom to support her (in an illegal way). Hey, everybody wants something, but we don't have the gall to ask and threaten and then get pissed off when people say, "Bitch, are you for real?" and blame meanness, rather than our own selfish idiocy for the mistake. That's how Cousin Jean fucked up.")

• comment by bittermint ("Damn. Next time she should take some pointers from Mysti Frank on how to rook people out of their hard-earned cash, do it with a smile and make them beg you to do it again.")

• comment by anonymous ("Seems to me the outcry was way wankier than the request. So she tried asking for money, so what? BFD. Why do people get so uptight about this kind of thing? All they had to do was either say no or ignore her, and she would've gotten the message. Whole lotta fuss over nothin', if you ask me.")

• comment by anonymous ("Have you been snorting blocks, lil' anonymouse? Not a big deal you say? What she did was ILLEGAL and she pretty much acknowledge as such. Now I dunno where you hail from, but pretty much anywhere you go anything illegal is a 'big deal'. "All they had to do was either say no or ignore her, and she would've gotten the message." People have been quite vehement with their 'Getting paid for writing fanfic?! Bitch please!' and cousinjean still didn't get it. If we had ignored her and hand't called her out on it, the bitch would still be whining. So eat your cheese and get the fuck outta here.")

• comment from anonymous (not the mouse) ("It's amazing how tough people get in a mob, isn't it? Someone posts questioning the wank, you feel judged, you jump on 'em.")

• comment from xero sky ("That's where, I think, the quite understandable outrage is coming from; she's trying to appeal to the "community" while fucking with its rules--primarily with the gift culture." Indeed. Nobody better fuck with the gifts. *shakes fist and goes looking for more free porn gifts of fanfiction*")

• comment by 'Gan ("So, did she say she wouldn't be mad if someone totally ripped off her original work for a profit and she got nothing? 'Cause fanfic? Basically free. All you need: Brain, imagination, maybe some paper, and the occasional connection to the Internet if you feel the need to share. I write fanfic, I'll admit it. But I don't do it so I can make a buck. I enjoy the characters and world someone else created enough that I want to explore different possibilities of what could happen to them... even things that would most definitely never happen in canon. Even if I didn't post on the Internet or even write the stuff down, somewhere in my head fanfic would be percolating. Not because I want money. But because I enjoyed the story that someone took the time and effort to think up and craft into the movies/shows/books I love. The fact that she's begging for money so she can enjoy her hobby kind of sickens me. And if she really thinks that asking for money for messing around with copyrighted material is the smart thing to do, then she should have no complaints when IF her book ever gets published, someone just scans a copy and posts it up on the Internet and she never sees a dime. Because it's obvious she has no respect for the original creators of the shows and books she's been enjoying because she totally wants to take the food out of their mouths, the clothes off their backs, and to keep them from ever being able to make a living at writing.")

Excerpts from Comments: Page Five

• comment by ladydisdain ("On behalf of everyone who is working at least 40 hours a week at a retail job and squeezing in time to write on their lunch hours while their coworkers jokingly ask if they're "writing their memoirs" a thousand times, SCREW YOU. Besides, even if someone did offer to give me a year off of work to focus on my writing, I don't think I'd take it. When I'm working full time and also juggling grad school and family life, I somehow squeeze in time to write. When I'd have summers off of school as an undergraduate, I'd get NOTHING written.")