There She is Again...Like a Turd in the Fandom Pool...

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Title:	There She is Again...Like a Turd in the Fandom Pool...
Creator:	slytherinprincess
Date(s):	February 10, 2007
Medium:	LiveJournal post
Fandom:
Topic:
External Links:	, page 1; archive link for page 1; page 2; Archive for page 2
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There She is Again...Like a Turd in the Fandom Pool... is an post by slytherinprincess which gives a counter argument that slash does not promote pro-gay values.

For additional context, see Timeline of Slash Meta and Slash Meta.

Topics Discussed

• slash
• queerbaiting
• slash vs. gay
• social justice

Excerpts

Sometimes I wonder if I am the only person in fandom who emphatically does not believe that writing slash is somehow a political promotion of equality and acceptance for gays. I mean, how does writing porn about Harry Potter characters even remotely constitute advancing human rights for gays, lesbians, or the transgendered? I mean, GBLT is as normal to me as heterosexuality, so fic about gays is just . . . normal. I would imagine those who read and seek out fic with GBLT themes also see GBLT as normal. Does anyone know of any genuine instances where a homophobe's attitude changed to become as accepting as ours are, just because they read slash fics? What concerns me about people who soapbox that they're somehow affecting some kind of political action by writing gay porn is that the very premise is so very Ladies Who Lunch to me. I guess I see writing slash as more of an assertion of women taking control of their sexuality and sexual desires, and writing about what turns them on -- and, dudes, I completely support that. The benefit in doing so, I think, is in fighting our way out from under the umbrella of patriarchy. But, you know, that doesn't change how anyone outside our microcosm views the GBLT community, unless we can somehow translate our support into tangible and effective work in our community. No slash fic will ever cure AIDS. No slash fic will ever hold and comfort the individual who is tormented because of their sexuality. Certainly no slash fic will ever be the deciding factor in breaching a homophobic parent's rejection toward their gay child. It seems to me that characterizing writing slash fic as a political action is . . . well, a stretch. Slash, you know, is bitchin' (forgive me, I'm feeling retro today) -- but it is what it is, and what it is is erotica and/or porn. Sometimes with a plot, sometimes not. I will concede that I think slash (whether rated G or NC-17, or anything in between) is a positive thing for individuals who need to read about kids or adults who are like them. I believe that's a really cool and necessary thing, and I do believe that slash can be that refuge and that place where someone can go to read about their own reality, and G*d bless it for that, seriously. Piggybacking on this, I think that with acceptance -- whether self acceptance or others reaching acceptance about something they previously rejected, such as homosexuality, bisexuality, or transgenderism -- comes the increased capacity and urge to affect change. And that will always be a positive thing. Always.

Where could you possibly help, if GBLT issues and human equality are important to you? Yes, I think this is more of a rhetorical question, because I don't think communal change (aside from attitude changes) comes from writing slash fic. Getting up from the keyboard and going out to your community and interacting with people is where you will really have an effect. I know a lot of us actually do that, but I rarely see people post about their community activities and involvement and how they stick their hands in the pie, so to speak. Will you share with me now, here in this post? It's okay if you don't do anything at all -- maybe you have some thoughts about what you would like to do someday, or maybe you don't even know where to start. Perhaps some great ideas for community service and real political action will arise from this post (hopefully?). Forgive me if this post sounds holier-than-thou, for that isn't my intention. I think it's one of those topics that is hard to broach, yet I felt I wanted to talk about it despite the risk of backlash. Slash is good and necessary and right. But fic writing is a hobby. That's all.

Comments at the Post

furiosity:

No, you are not the only one. My teeth are instantly on edge when I see pseudo-intellectual posturing by people who believe they're changing the world with slash -- I think I may have ranted about it in the past, too, but I'm too lazy to go look for the post now. I've even seen people openly complain about slash stories that deal with AIDS, homophobia, drug abuse and other issues on more than a superficial level, because they "don't want any reality with their fantasy". Direct quote, yo; don't remember where I read it but it's burned into my brain permanently because I believe it is one of the most ignorant things I've ever read in my life. I think it goes to show that not everyone who writes or reads slash cares about Real Gay People™ It does appear to be a sort of badge of honour in the slash community to also be a gay rights activist or some such. I think part of it comes from people wanting to justify a "subversive" hobby. "I'm not just writing gay erotica; I'm changing the world!" But wishing doesn't make it so.

slytherinprincess:

I've seen the argument many times. I just have never been able to see it as valid. This isn't to say that someone who writes slash isn't politically active. But the act of writing porn isn't going to change the world. I mean, I think we write what we want to read, and sometimes others enjoy our writings in the same way, but I think it's important to draw the distinction between, well, writing porn and actually making an impact in one's community. Yes, it is ignorant to routinely shrug off reality -- it's statements like the one you quoted (I don't want reality with my fantasy) that bother me and make me think that some people only look at gays as a kink for their own personal enjoyment, and I think that's wrong. I'm also reminded of that author a couple years ago who admitted they thought being gay was morally wrong, yet they themselves wrote slash because they liked the kink of it. I found this beyond offensive.

doctor bendo:

I've spoken about how glad I am of the fact that slash isn't all about aids, exploitation, homophobia or anything else like that, because there are not many places where the faggot is the hero. This has to do with the fact that sexuality is many times married to tragedy in Hollywood, and it seems, even in normal published lit, and slash doesn't seem to be aware of that, which I'm really cool with. Sex can be a thing of joy, too, and I dig that. However, I think that no topic is off-limits to a good writer and that it's not in the audience's best interest to curtail a writer's range, whether it's about topic or style or whatever. To say that slash is about X, Y or Z is too weird to me.

dinpik:

My teeth are instantly on edge when I see pseudo-intellectual posturing by people who believe they're changing the world with slash Mmhmm. The Irony Meter goes off the scale when the same people go on about how slash is women's fantasy, nothing more, so don't harsh the buzz with all that, you know, real stuff.

lim:

Hm. Well, I think I shall set your teeth on edge! I'm sorry.

I don't want reality with my fantasy. At the moment, in fandom, I just want to read happy porn. I was saying only the other day in my journal that I'm experiencing a rather liberating period of being demanding! I want this and I don't want that! No! I am saying no! It's brilliant, actually. The whole thing is a revelation. I have wants! I want X and Y to save the world and fall in love and have fabulous, beautiful sex, and a laugh. \o/

(Fandom, slash, it really did change my world. Please don't dismiss it! It's ok that it didn't change yours, honestly, but it really did change mine.)

I don't see how this has anything to do with what I feel about Real Gay People. X and Y are not real people. They are fictional characters. They are my companions and my escape.

I don't want to read about homophobia or drug abuse or AIDs, or long term illness, or hopeless painful death and you know what? It's really not because I am ignorant of them.

sofisticat:

I totally agree with you. Slash stories don't do anything to change the situation for gay people - there won't be any more acceptance of gay marriage or adoption rights for gay couples because of slashfics - fanfic is entertainment, period. It is not a political tool and does nothing for GLBT rights. What does make a difference in people's opinion is that they actually get to know gay people and see that they are no different from them, except that they fall in love with people of the same sex instead of the opposite. Most homophobes don't even know a gay person at all...

slytherinprincess:

Where I think slash can affect change is in attitude -- I can certainly imagine, for instance, a person who had certain pre-conceived notions about homosexuality, bisexuality or transgenderism being educated by fiction. It's all how it's represented. But, yeah, I just don't see writing slash fic as any kind of political tool, really. It's definitely a YMMV thing.

slytherinprincess:

I really do think that is true, because I've read many a slash fic that would only serve to reinforce the stereotypes of gays that likely many homophobes hold. While they're fun to read and I personally have no issue with someone getting a kick out of Harry in sequined spandex pants asking Draco to spank him in the Great Hall!fic, I can see a homophobe losing his/her shit over that kind of story.

emmagrant01:

The interesting thing for me is that there are many, many reasons why people read and write slash. It's naive to think that one reason can be determined even for a single fan, because people's motivation change all the time, from fic to fic, even. I can say that there are fics I absolutely wrote for a political reason. Left My Heart was written as a response to the gay marriage debate bursting onto the American political scene in February 2004. The theme of gay marriage runs through it and its sequel, though perhaps in ways that are only obvious to me. There are several fics that I've written to highlight a particular GLBT issue and think about it in the context of the WW. And there are also a lot of fics that I wrote purely because I wanted to write erotica, or because I had an interesting story idea to explore, and it had nothing to do with politics or promoting a particular agenda.

I think it's a mistake to pigeonhole people in any way, because fandom is a very fluid thing. I'm sure there are people who are conscious of their motivations for every fic they write, but many people aren't. but more importantly, you can never know what the impact of what you write will be on a reader. For example (and to address your question about whether slash really changes anyone's mind about GLBT issues), I have received emails from people who told me that reading my fic in particular made them rethink their view of gay people. Why someone who wasn't sure about homosexuality was reading slash in the first place is another question, but there it is. I've also gotten emails from people who told me that reading something I'd written helped them to accept their own sexuality and gave them the courage to come out.

I don't necessarily write fics with the goal of changing anyone's mind about anything, but I do sometimes write fics about issues that are important to me. And yes, I do think that slash can have an impact on people's views about homosexuality. All the evidence I have for that is anecdotal, but I know slashers who were once fundamentalist Christians, and who were drawn into slash kicking and screaming -- and whose minds were changed.

There's a tone in your post here that people who think writing slash can have a positive impact on people's opinions are being foolish, and that if they really want to make a difference they should do something else. I guess I think that's a bit harsh, because I see slash fandom as being very pro-GLBT rights issues. I have become much more politically involved as a direct result of being in fandom. People on my flist post about events in their communities, and there is a lot of networking that happens online. I have seen many letter-writing and petition campaigns promoted through fandom, and I've been made aware of issues I wouldn't have known about otherwise. Many slashers grow to become activists through fandom. I can point to many examples.

So maybe you think it's foolish, but from where I sit, it doesn't hurt anyone. And it does have a positive impact.

slytherinprincess:

Anyhow, I do want to be clear that I don't think that writing slash is foolish and nowhere did I state such a thing! The thing I love the most about slash (while I don't identify as a slasher per se myself, in that I don't exclusively read slash) is that it does present GBLT in a normal, day-to-day light. I enjoy reading, as do you, about relationships and how they come about. And I do think that writing about characters facing homophobia and rejection because of their sexuality bring a compelling, poignant undertone to a story. I tried to stress that fact that I support slash, that I encourage people to write what they want to write, that I read slash myself and thoroughly enjoy it if it's a story I like, and that I find GBLT issues as normative as heterosexual ones.

[snipped]

But -- and I have a sense that we are just going to plain disagree on this -- I just do not see the act of writing a slash fic and publishing it on LJ to be a political act or act of activism. Others undoubtedly feel differently and I can, again, concede that certainly for some people the seeds of change in attitude, and perhaps activism and involvement, can arise from being exposed to GBLT characters through fiction -- or non-fiction, even.

I don't think that writing slash is foolish, but I have no problem saying that if someone tells me that they are a GBLT activist based solely on the fact that they write slash, I'm not going to view them as a "political activist" unless they take their convictions to a higher level. That doesn't mean that I believe people who only want to write slash in fandom are wrong, bad, stupid, misguided, or foolish. But I do not agree that the mere act of writing slash is a political act. I do agree that it can provide seeds for change and future action, though.

emmagrant01:

And yes, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. In fact, I disagree pretty strongly. Writing has been a way for people (minorities in particular) to be politically active throughout history. The abolitionist movement in the 19th century gained a great deal of momentum through the writing of fiction, for example. Women have written (subsequently marginalized) fiction for centuries, works that were subtly critical of their position in society. In some cases, the only thing people can do to express themselves is to write. I find it a bit strange that someone would suggest writing doesn't have an impact, to be honest.

In fact, I submitted a proposal to Prophecy on this very topic, gathered a panel of people who do that very thing (one of whom has a strong background in queer studies), and did a lot of reading about academic perspectives on slash to support my proposal. I assume you'll be skipping that one, should it be accepted? ;-)

But the idea that one expresses political and social commentary through fiction, even fan fiction, is hardly a new or a fringe idea....

I am occasionally a political activist, and regard things like participating in demonstrations and political campaigns as part of that activism. But I also regard some of the fic I've written as being political commentary on the world I live in, on everything from GLBT rights issues to the Bush administration. In the sense that it gets people to think about an issue in a new light, who's to say that doesn't count as political activism? Isn't the point of a demonstration to show that a group of people believe something is important?

alchemia:

if someone tells me that they are a GBLT activist based solely on the fact that they write slash, I'm not going to view them as a "political activist" unless they take their convictions to a higher level.

I find this sediment upsettting becuase it implies to me that theres an assumption we re all on an equal playing field. we are not. everyone shoulddowhat they can do, butwhat everyone can do is not the same, and is not greater or lesser than what another person does just becuase they do or not have the money, social skills, physical ability, political connections, health, security etc etc to carry it out.

writing, be it slash or original fic, or non-fiction, and being online to talk to people- thats somethign I can do- its something Ive beeen able to help people through crisises and suicidal feelings and dealing withhomophobic parents etc etc.. it has made a difference for alll those people. yet, it appears to be judged "lesss than" doing the same kind of intervention that one can put on a resume because they have the educaational background, the physical health, the social ability, the fiancial ability, etc to do it through volunteering or gtting an actual job via a organisation.

slytherinprincess:

Is there some reason that some slashers need to justify what they're doing? Is the simple joy of writing (and hopefully people enjoying) not enough? It's almost as though they're ashamed that they're doing it - is this somehow related to the fact that the majority of slashers are straight females? If they can make a claim to activism, they're not just using characters and stories as a way to get off? I don't know. I don't know either. There's probably some women who fall into this category, but I'm unwilling categorize slashers in that way. As with any group, there are people who have unhealthy attitudes about their sexuality and gender, no matter what genre they prefer to write -- slash or het, or even gen. I do know, though, that I wish women felt freer to say Hey, this is what I like and that's it. I do believe that women still don't feel free to express themselves sexually, and I believe that writing openly about what we like and think is hot is a very positive thing.

anamirza:

I think that feeling comes about at least in part because of some people writing homophobic comments or reviews for slash fics and then the community piles on and defends the right of gay people to be and straight people to write about them (or something like that).

Honestly, I think some slash is really more objectifying than anything and I don't think I'd be too keen to read het stuff of that sort, and somehow I don't imagine the GLBT readership being so excited about the mere existence of gay characters as to overlook the nature of the fic they're in, yanno?

But not all slash fic is like that - I think slash is a pretty big umbrella. I've seen it defined as writing with characters portrayed as gay who are not canonically gay. Not all slash is rated R or worse, and while much of it (I think) does come from women taking control of their own sexuality, as you say, I don't think all of it does. Some of it is more an exploration of how homosexuality might be viewed in the wizarding world. I think some people also are Working Through Things themselves and that's a good thing too.

darklocket:

I like to imagine that 10-20 years down the track, there will be a whole generation of people who've grown up thinking of slash (and fanfiction in general) as a valid alternative to television and published fiction...so that's got to change people's tastes and attitudes in the long run. TV and movies will eventually clue on and start writing storylines with more believable gay and lesbian characters in them. It won't happen overnight, but it will happen. At least I like to think so. Every slash fic is a drop in the bucket. But I know what you're getting at, definitely. I picked up a novel recently by Anne Rice's son Christopher Rice, who is a gay activist, and not a bad writer...it was a Gothic murder mystery about a gay teenager going through the US school system, growing up in New Orleans ('A Density of Souls') It didn't pull any punches and it made me think about the way that slash fanfic tends to skate over the brutal reality of trying to live the lifestyle, day in and day out. We're writing fantasy, so the temptation to avoid facing up to facts is always there, unfortunately. I have a lot of unresolved issues about the whole thing myself, so it's good to see posts like this that bring it out in the open, definitely.