Talk:Not a Minute of Peace

I'm hoping for some fan comments for these fics.

I also propose bumping down the images, and taking out the "600 px" size. --MPH (talk) 00:56, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Fan comments will be posted as they come out. The fics are not released yet, but either way, there are plenty of fics hosted on Fanlore with far less content. --ShadowMayura (talk) 01:30, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Please point me to a bunch of these fics with far less content and context? Fics from more than one fandom? Because I'm going to spend a lot of time and energy to make sure those pages have wikilinks, and context, and other things. Please point me to pages that have been created in advance of anticipated future comments? Because the fic pages you're adding feels like a lot of pages created to signal boost a specific event. Thank you. --MPH (talk) 01:55, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

I am going to bump down the 600px size of the image on this page, and related pages. --MPH (talk) 02:01, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

In regards to the image size: I think I used the size given because I originally referenced off of another page that was formatted that way. I will use this as my template from now on if this is the preference.

In regards to the rest: I've requested disambiguations both today and in the past where the existing articles were true stubs. If you really want me to link them I can, but I doubt that does anyone any good.

The fics in question are part of a very active challenge and fandom. I can tell you for a fact that they will get comments on them. I created the pages in advance so I can add information as they post, that way the workload can be spread out over the next few weeks, which was easier to start now since the banners and summaries have already been released.

Could you please link me to the rule that say pages cannot be connected to a specific event? Could you link me to the rule that says all articles about fics must include comments? I have seen content suggestions before, but not requirements.

There is no ulterior motive here and I find the suggestion to be inappropriate and gatekeeper-y. This is a big event in the fandom I'm part of, and I'm just doing my best to create articles to archive notable events. If I was looking for a "signal boost" I'd be doing it on a more interactive and heavily trafficked platform. This is done out of a passion for the fandom, not personal clout.

This isn't the first time you've been overly aggressive with me and I'd just like to know what I've done wrong to set you off? Is it that I tend to make a lot of contributions in bursts when I have the energy to do so? Is it that my knowledge falls in a highly specific niche? Or that it's connected to fandoms that are viewed as childish? I can't really control what my hyperfixations are. I'd really like to know what I need to change so we can have more pleasant interactions in the future. --ShadowMayura (talk) 02:15, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

I'd like to start here with your statement: "there are plenty of fics hosted on Fanlore with far less content." Will you please include some links to these so I can start adding content, context, and wikilinks? Thanks. --MPH (talk) 02:18, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Pre-Made Pages

I don't know what previous editing troubles ShadowMayura's had, but I think the page as it was made was fine. It follows Fanlore formatting with categories, an intro, and the infobox mostly filled out, and it has internal links to other Fanlore pages. I agree with changing the image size, but that was a minor mistake that's been easily dealt with.

My only issue with the page is that it's for a fic that hasn't been published yet. The only kind of Fanlore pages I know of being created before the work was released in any form are zine pages, which I think is because the zines have a long and collaborative creation process and are pre-promoted. So I don't don't think a pre-made fanfiction page isn't allowed just because I haven't seen it happen before. I might worry if this page was a stub, but the info on this page already shows the work that's gone into the fic: the challenge/art it was based on, a beta-reader, a summary, etc. It certainly has more content than a lot of stub fanfiction pages. Maybe a good thing to add is citations for verification.

The issues with pre-made pages that I can see are 1) self-promotion 2) if the work is never actually published so there's no content to cover. This page doesn't seem to be self-promotion and has relevant content. I'm interested in hearing if there are other problems or existing rules against this. --caes (talk) 03:34, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your input, Caessius. To provide an extra bit of context, although these fics and art pieces are not part of a zine, they did come out of a similar process that involved lengthy collaboration - since July. The info that I included on these pages has been posted on the official challenge Tumblr. --ShadowMayura (talk) 03:45, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

If the Gardeners feel strongly, I guess they can remove these pages, but it would undo a lot of hard work that will just have to be redone. The first fic goes up in 3 days. It seems silly to take it down, only to put it back up in 3 days. And I have to say, I wouldn't be the happiest since I devoted several hours to creating these today! --ShadowMayura (talk) 03:47, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

If it comes out in 3 days maybe the page can remain up since it would just be deleted then re-created 3 days later, however you may not want to pre-make pages for unreleased fanfics in the future. At least that's what I'm getting at with the others' replies. You'll have to edit the page to no longer be in the future tense, once the fanfic is out, too. Patchlamb (talk) 19:39, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi, ShadowMayura,

You're right that we don't have a specific rule against creating pages for fanworks that don't exist yet, and that's something that we can create more guidance on in our documentation. The main reason that it's not normally done on Fanlore is because, as MPH pointed out earlier, fanwork pages need to reflect the reception of those works in fandom and the interaction that fans have with those works - fan comments, spin-off fanworks, meta, etc. See for example Alone on the Water, which documents how the fandom interacted with this work and the author's responses, as well as other works it inspired; or The Madness Underneath, which contains details of the work's awards and fan posters that were created as well as fan comments.

When a work hasn't been created yet, we don't know whether or not those things will arrive. I know you have plans to document these things - it's just that we would normally wait to see how much impact a fanwork has before making a dedicated page for it on Fanlore.

However, since you have plans to document the fandom response to these fanworks when they're published, it's fine to leave the pages as they are until then.

I realise that it may seem like we have a lot of unwritten rules on Fanlore about how to do things, and I promise no-one is trying to catch you out. A lot of Fanlore editing is subjective, which is why there aren't a lot of hard-and-fast rules around what should and shouldn't be done here. However, we appreciate it can make the wiki more difficult for new editors to navigate and so we're working on making clearer guidelines available. You're always welcome to contact Fanlore Policy & Admin (select "Fanlore Policies" as your message subject to reach us) with suggestions and feedback on our documentation, policies, or anything about Fanlore that we can improve. --enchantedsleeper (talk) 23:46, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

I appreciate the acknowledgement of the unwritten rules. I'm not exactly an inexperienced editor -- I've been around for a while, but with no central agreement on what is allowed or not allowed, what is appropriate formatting, and other unspoken rules, it's very difficult to meet everyone's very subjective standards. I've seen plenty of fanfic pages without much information on them at all, including fandom reception or rewards, so I don't even feel like there's a standard precedence to go off of. 'That' is one large reason of several why at this point MPH's intervention feels targeted to me. In addition, while I admit I haven't seen many pages for unreleased fanfics, I've seen a few for unreleased zines and whatnot, so I didn't think it was a huge jump to make pages for unreleased fanfics. I just wanted to be proactive and document an event that's pretty significant in my fandom.

I do feel frustrated by these unwritten rules. I think it is supremely unfair to enforce a rule that is not written down and shared with everyone. I'm not a difficult person to work with; I'm willing to be cooperative and follow rules, but I can't follow rules that don't exist in a well-documented format.

In any case, thank you for being patient in this response and engaging with me in a polite, respectful way. If the initial interaction I'd had had been more like this, I would not be as frustrated as I am now. I hope other gardeners can adopt your approach in the future. --ShadowMayura (talk) 01:41, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

To back up my point about other fanfic pages having little information and no fandom response incorporated -- here's two that I found very quickly: Across Enemy Lines, After the End (Harry Potter novel). Ironically, the former of the two was created by the Gardener who gave me trouble for these pages. So here are the examples, since they asked for them. --ShadowMayura (talk) 01:52, 30 November 2020 (UTC)