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I tried to rename the page to Dargelos, but that name currently redirects to [Jean C.]. Should material from here be incorporated into the [Jean C.] page or should there be a separate Dargelos page?--æthel 18:46, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I think separate, no connection. --Mrs. Potato Head 18:51, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree (even though I am a bit confused as to what the issues are and how we should proceed). let me know if I can help.--Morgandawn 19:00, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
From reading the page here, I gather that the issue is that Dargelos had taken "White Rabbit" offline, but then someone else put it up again somewhere else. So if we ever find a link to the fic, we shouldn't add it to the White Rabbit page. And apparently Agent with Style is not authorized to be printing copies of the zine (though I'm not sure from their website if the zine is still in print). So maybe we could add a note about that to the White Rabbit page.--æthel 19:55, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I think her issue with archival is that it's available through the Wayback Machine, not that a third party re-posted it. A quick google search links to at least one fic reccomendation site that has the link posted. As for AWS, the zine, as of today, is still for sale there. But that's an issue between the writer and the agent. --Mrs. Potato Head 20:04, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Listed yes -- for sale, maybe not. The listing I saw, unlike those above and below, didn't have a clickable link in it. --djonn 22:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
It's for sale. This is from AWS's front page: "We've had several people ask the same question, so let me explain -- all the zines on our site are available for ordering. If a zine has a blue link, that means there is a table of contents (click to see) to view for that issue. A title in black is available, it just doesn't have a table of contents because it's a novel. Again, all the zines on our site can be ordered. If it's listed, you can order it!" --Mrs. Potato Head 22:41, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
BTW, Morgan Dawn, if you (or someone else) could retool the Dargelos entry so that it reads more like a regular fan page and less like a personal blog post, that would great!--æthel 21:00, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Is this her user page? Or is it an article about her? To be honest, I wouldn't know where to start. --Mrs. Potato Head 21:04, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Don't worry, I went ahead and made an attempt at making this a fan profile page. I will continue to wait for more clarity and info. "There's too much confusion here..."--Morgandawn 21:12, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Coming in with no background whatsoever save for the content on this and the "White Rabbit" page: my sense is that not only (a) the author didn't grant AWS permission to sell a "White Rabbit" zine, but (b) the author may never have granted permission for online posting/archiving in the first place. This is unfortunate, and it's clearly not Fanlore's fault that the relevant genies have been de-bottled. However, given the author's directly expressed wishes, it seems to me that the courteous thing to do would be to put a notice on the "White Rabbit" page to the effect that "On [date], the author of [story] contacted Fanlore to report that any copies of this story posted online, or being made available for sale in printed form from [vendor] are unauthorized by her, and to ask that fans not seek out or purchase such copies of the story. Fanlore cannot regulate the behavior of fans or of third party content providers, but provides this notice as a courtesy to the author and to fans who prefer to respect the author's wishes in such matters." --djonn 22:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
From what I understand via Dargelo's lj, the zine was for sale with permission for some time, Dargelos had asked for it to be taken down, and it wasn't. And as far as I know, no one else has archived her story; she is unhappy that the Wayback finds her own old archive. --Mrs. Potato Head 22:41, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I like your disclaimer and think it is one that we could use - with a caveat. My understanding is that Mysti had permission to sell the zine for years....that recently Dargelos contacted her and asked her to stop selling in preparation of filing off the serial numbers. Ditto on what Mrs P says above the 'archiving' - my understanding is that the author posted the story online in her own online fan fic archive for years, has now taken it offline and the archiving complaint may be with the automatic Internet Archive. But what she posted here is vague, I am not certain of the whos, whats and wheres and whether they match up with my understanding. I'd be hesitant to start naming names in a disclaimer without at least allowing the committee some time to ask for clarification. Short answer: I'd give both the author and the committee a full day to chat and then if we hear nothing back, we add the disclaimer to the White Rabbit page, sans specific names of people or organizations? But great idea and one that I think has legs. --Morgandawn 22:45, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
That makes perfect sense to me; this is clearly a call that ought to be made by folk with more complete knowledge than I have (I see others are adding info as we go), and after due consultation with relevant authorities/parties. The specific language can certainly be edited as necessary; I was simply trying to come up with something polite and clear -- and with the idea of developing boilerplate that could be cloned if/when similar situations arise. --djonn 23:00, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
What they said. Also, the permission to sell the zine back in 1999 was mentioned in the notes of the author's online version of the story: Thanks too, to [...] Agent with Style – who stepped forward and took a great load of work off of me by agreeing to print and agent this puppy. --Doro 22:56, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Added the authorial notice we discussed above to the White Rabbit pages - I edited it to be very factual and also made it clear it is something that two volunteers came up with and it not official policy yadda yadda.--Morgandawn 17:46, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Looks good to me, at least pending further developments. [If her committee contacts haven't done so already, it might be good for someone to let the author know that's been done. She may or may not consider it a sufficient response, but it at least demonstrates acknowledgment of her issues.] --djonn 17:55, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks! I don't know the author but hopefully someone who does will pass on the update. I feel a bit awkward at putting the notice on the White Rabbit page on my own iniative, but getting an official response does take time and I didn't want her (or anyone else) to feel their concerns are not important.--Morgandawn 18:18, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

While the issue may be resolved, removing the quoted material creates at least two links that now make no sense. [1] and [2]. --Mrs. Potato Head 16:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I updated the pages with links to the original version of this page, which contains the quoted material, though I'm not sure if we still need the note on the White Rabbit page--the zine is no longer listed on Agent with Style and has been blocked from the Wayback Machine.--æthel 17:52, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Since the material was placed there by the author, I don't think we should be removing her words and her feelings on the matter - and beyond the matter itself her feelings about fandom. I think it should be restored with a note that the zine issue has been resolved. But we don't just document a zine - we document zine history and the events that took place are part of the zines' history. As they are part of Dargelos' own history.--Morgandawn 18:25, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
I added most of her text back in. How does it look now?--æthel 18:42, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Information/Darelos' words, moved from main page to talk page

As per discussion with the wiki committee, on September 23, 2014, the following section was moved (This move was made by --MPH) to this talk page, personal information redacted:

On September 21, 2010, Dargelos posted this on her Fanlore page:

... She has since turned pro, but had retained a deep love for fannish work until the 21st of September 2010 when she found that in spite of not wishing a particular fannish story to be sold in fanzine form any longer, it was apparently still being advertised as being for sale. When she found that the same story still existed in an archive that she had never okayed. When she discovered that in spite of having made a simple request that the information about that particular story be removed from a fannish wiki, the response was swift and negative. When she realized that she was no more important than a fart in the wind unless she could still make money or enhance reputation for others.

It was on that day that she swore that she would never again produce any fanfic or fan art again. It was on that day when she finally said "Well done, fandom, you've fucked me up the ass for the last time.

Dargelos is now dead. [1][2]

ETA 9/15/2014: I would very much like to add this follow up: Four years ago, [personal information redacted]. I was angry at everyone and everything, and when I made what I felt was a reasonable request of the people who ran this forum and was rebuffed, I flipped out as you can see above, and made an ill-advised entry on this Wiki.

In the intervening years, [personal information redacted], I've given this a lot of thought and what I want to say is that while I still feel my request was legitimate, my response implied that I was finished with fandom. I'm not. Fandom is my spiritual and intellectual home. Fans are my people, and I love them dearly. I honestly wish I had the inspiration to continue to produce stories, but over the years I've lost the spark. I am fortunate that I'm able to do original work, though that came slowly, too, but to a great degree has been one of the things that's saved my life.

The bottom line is this: I never should have made this argument public. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I felt stonewalled and I struck out stupidly and pointlessly. I hope you all can forgive me. D."

--MPH (talk) 21:49, 27 October 2014 (UTC)talk) 19:13, 23 September 2014 (UTC)


  1. ^ Dargelos -- September 21, 2010
  2. ^ Dargelos later added that "the problem with the fanzine was a mistake, and she apologizes to anyone who felt they were being unfairly singled out."