Talk:Astarion

Canon section

I'm usually the last Fanlore contributor who'd register this quibble, but the canon section seems overlong to me and might do with restructuring. Canon sections on Fanlore are generally a place for giving a synopsis of major plot events related to a character. Much of the material here details this character's personality and minutiae like his sleeping habits, crafting skills, etc. Some of this information could probably be better integrated into the tropes section. Otherwise, this article is looking good! Night Rain (talk) 11:16, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Also give me a shout if you want me to try to find CC-licensed art of Fen-I mean, this character. ;) Night Rain (talk) 11:34, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for the help! I'm in the process of moving some of this (maybe) to more adequate pages, like pairings and such, so I have just used it as a dump for his info. Which parts do you recommend moving, exactly? And where? They're canon so I just left them in the canon area, thinking fans could probably use seeing them clearly, since a lot of his canon wasn't/isn't common knowledge and people had been wondering about some of it. Thank you for the art! I'm actually wondering if the picture placed in the Character Profile should be exchanged by one of yours (don't know if you want to do that) because of spoilers. Aliandry (talk) 09:04, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I'd say it's ideal for infobox images to be Creative Commons-licensed rather than uploaded under fair use. The top image would be included on the main page along with the lede text should this article attain Featured Article status. I feel this article is already quite well-developed and has the makings of a featured article! I also found more CC-licensed art of Astarion than what I added. I can upload the rest too if you wish. Are the back scars a major spoiler? (I haven't played BG3 yet, sorry.) My initial impression of the art before I read the Canon section (and watched a couple vids) was of a blood magic ritual. In any case, it might be nice to feature an image with Astarion's face visible, spoiler considerations aside. Feel free to choose the illustration you think would work best.

Fanlore is generally a pretty chill wiki. Contributors seem to have a degree of latitude in shaping articles in a way that best represents their fandom. But in the past I've encountered contributors who felt canon sections in other articles were overlong. In short, Fanlore:What Fanlore is not advises that this wiki is not a "repository for plot summaries, character biographies, or other canon information." Some seem to understand this as indicating that canon sections ought be brief and to-the-point, and that the bulk of an article's content should ideally consist of coverage of fanart, fanfic, fannish opinions, shipping, and other fandom-related stuff. I've disagreed with this viewpoint in the past (and still do) for a number of reasons. But it's the kind of thing that may come up at some point, especially if this article were to be nominated for FA at some point.

As it stands, I would recommend re-focusing the "Canon" section on core biographical details and plot involvement, with an average of about one paragraph dedicated to each official media release featuring Astarion. The secondary stuff – his feeding habits, crafting skills, etc. – could then be covered under "Tropes." Consider providing an explanation of the relevant canon, and then highlighting examples of how fans interpret, build upon, or subvert this canon in fanworks. If there's a character aspect that seems integral to Astarion, but doesn't seem to fit neatly into the framework of a plot synopsis, then it might be possible to build an independent section around it. If you want some ideas then maybe have a look at Anders (Dragon Age) (a current FA nominee) to see the approach I took. The climatic event of DA2 (major spoiler!) and Anders' mental health are both important aspects of his canon characterization and focuses of fandom discourse. Both topics would've taken up disproportionate space in the plot synopsis-focused "Canon" section, but would've also been underserved by a couple of cursory sentences in a "Tropes" section. Ultimately, I opted to give both subjects independent sections within Anders' article, and used these to both explain the relevant canon and highlight fannish opinions per PPOV. This felt like striking the balance between providing a comprehensive overview of character canon while also addressing concerns about keeping Fanlore articles fan-focused.

Keep in mind that these are merely my own ideas and approaches! Don't feel obligated to follow my advice here. You know this character better and thus would have a clearer insight into what the optimal approach might be in creating an article about him. No one's substantially pruned the canon section I added to Jaime/Brienne since a "Too Much Canon" tag was added like four years ago. XD Night Rain (talk) 10:53, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Excellent work thus far! Going to try to tread lightly here because this comment will reference sexual assault. I feel that "self-forced sex" is inapt and potentially problematic as a trope name. The two centuries Astarion spent as a thrall of a master vampire wouldn't fit this description, as every "choice" would've been made under threat of harm from another person, rather than (nominally) free choices made out of an internalized sense of obligation to others. I recognize that the trope description is careful to situate it in terms of his post-Cazador life ("because of his past") but people skim-reading the "Tropes" section might have an inaccurate takeaway. Given the sensitive nature of the subject matter, erring on the side of caution may be advisable. I'd recommend 1) choosing a clearer name (the AO3 tags "Consent Issues", "Learned Helplessness", and "Sexual Self-Coercion" spring to mind), and 2) adding a second trope such as "Sexual Slavery" or "Sexual Grooming" to clearly delineate fannish representations of past abuse/trauma from the issues that arise in later freely-formed relationships. And TBC I definitely think this scene involves the PC actively coercing Astarion into sex rather than him pre-emptively offering it as a defence mechanism (which seems to be a thing he admits doing). Night Rain (talk) 01:19, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for all your suggestions. There’s a lot to go through and I do keep them in mind while I update my archives (which I then transpose here). I’m also aware some elements of this page are slightly outdated or might cause confusion due to new developments (or events that were considered important during EA/the first month of FR are now no longer as relevant or are seemingly not easily accessible to the new arrivals to fandom). I plan on updating them and adding more as fandom continues developing but I’m also currently bedridden and I haven’t been able to do so as I had planned. As for the trope situation, Astarion forcing himself to have sex for protection is a very common trope used explicitly, distinctly and with more fannish impact than his “luring” under Cazador (which is usually just mentioned and not actively worked on), which is why it was present firstly. It’s also so common it’s not usually tagged. Since his seduction defence mechanism springs in part from his years under Cazador’s vampiric compulsion they are connected, yes, but they are two distinct tropes. His post-Cazador coercion (by PC) is also intermingled with, but distinct from, those and canonically is a turning point in the way he conducts himself (the famous “hug” dialogue in Act 2). I have not seen it having a strong presence in fanart or fanfiction. As for the name, I was hoping the tags would congeal into something (but as with most bg3 tags they haven’t) that I could use and went with a very bare bones and direct description of the act, together with disassociation, as these two go hand in hand forming the trope. Aliandry (talk) 07:48, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry to hear about your health. Hope you're feeling better now. I myself took a break from Fanlore for a couple of weeks. Don't feel the need to rush as far as this article goes. It's coming together really well but there's no fixed time by which it needs to be "done." As for the "Tropes" section, as much as I absolutely adore the Last Unicorn reference, "holding out for a hero" on its own be may more accessible. Many readers will be familiar with a campy '80s pop hit. Fewer will know about a cult '80s kids film with surprisingly deep themes of mortality and regret. Don't hesitate to create an article for a trope if there isn't an existing one that fits. I've had to do that myself when I wanted to cover something specific in a "Tropes" section. I could take a crack at starting an article for the "holding out for a hero" trope myself. I can think of at least one other canon example of a character arc that fits the trope in the broad strokes. Night Rain (talk) 17:23, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your wishes. I'm currently recovering. As for your query (warning, there's spoilers): Fans had previously voiced their displeasure in the "Holding Out for a Hero" name as a trope representation in this page. I myself wasn't pleased with my choice of Bonnie Tyler's song for it, because I too realised it's not really what it is about for Astarion. The fandom itself has represented this specific trope with The Last Unicorn quote, both in art and fic as well (for example: Tav/Astarion example, Spawn ending to Pale Elf Quest, Fan regarding Astarion's distaste for heroism)

I'm heavily quoting other fans as well as myself here: Astarion is not really pining to be saved. He's very specifically manipulating people to his cause more than anything, which in itself is separate enough from this trope to be considered a different one. While in fandom representation, he may exude romantic and/or sexual desire for his saviour, it's not always the case, and it's not shown in canon.

Astarion is taken from his captor by happenstance, not rescued by a hero at all, and the majority of works represent him trying to keep himself that way by trading favours for protection and resenting hero-types for their lack of action in the past (he himself will express reluctance and discomfort in the player character trying to become is protector: Tell him you'll always be there to protect him > It would be nice not to rely on you as my great protector. There's more dialogue, but I'm unable to quote it verbatim at the moment). These are the themes that tie him more accurately to The Last Unicorn quote. It's a trope specific to him, rather than the generic "damsel in distress" that "holding out for a hero" entails and might also erroneously lead fans to relate to him. While he might acquiesce becoming a hero by the end of his good arc he's not holding out at all (but might be secretly pining for it). That being said, there are fandom instances where he IS the damsel in distress and he IS saved, but far less than the representation of the resentment he holds for heroes and the fact he wasn't rescued when in need of help. --Aliandry (talk) 00:48, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Character-specific tropes are definitely a thing that exists. We ought to document them along with more widely-used tropes. I suppose what I'm trying to figure out here is whether there might be a broader trope that could be applied to other characters and fanworks. It's possible that a jaded person might resent heroes and performative heroism (being rescued, chivalry, etc.) while longing for deliverance on a spiritual/emotional/moral level. In other words, to find or re-discover their faith in other people, or hope in a world that seems endlessly cruel and corrupt. That's how I've always understood the Molly Grue quote. She doesn't curse the Unicorn for failing to rescue her, but for not finding her while she still carried joy, wonder, or purity in her heart. A rather complex emotional palette to be presented with at five in a bargain VHS! Anyway, I might be wandering out into the weeds a bit here, but it would be neat to grow our coverage of tropes. :) Night Rain (talk) 17:21, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Infobox image

Seeking opinions on what image to feature in the infobox. The criteria used were 1) focus on his face, 2) no or minor amount of blood featured, 3) depicted more realistically (as in the game) than stylized. Night Rain (talk) 06:05, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

• 

  by am-Alnath

• 

  by Leshiye-Art

• 

  by lydiayue

• 

  by Ewa Sztefka

• 

  by Ewa Sztefka

• 

  by VinogradovaArtroom

Thank you for taking on this task! In my opinion, the one by am-Alnath is clear and close to his likeness while focusing on a trope and being spoiler free, so it is a good candidate.

[above unsigned comment by User:Aliandry at 13:34, 22 October 2023‎ UTC]

I also consider the am-Alnath piece to be the forerunner of the selections due to it being the least visually stylized. I started playing BG3 last week and I've gotta say that I don't consider Astarion's vampirism to be a major spoiler. He's got visible fangs and bite scars, and tried to nom on me in the first hour! I'd say the softer side exemplified in the am-Alnath piece is a bit more revealing in terms of his character arc. I haven't seen that side of Astarion yet because I'm ~10 hours into the game and finding it hard to build approval with him. In any case I don't think that's a reason not to feature the am-Alnath art in the infobox. I'll swap it out now. Night Rain (talk) 16:15, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

I found CC-licensed art of the immediate aftermath of Astarion's torture. Viewable without login through Archive.today (CW: bleeding wound, near nudity). Not sure how others feeling about including this. It hits me in the feels a bit harder than the emikart piece because Astarion's face is visible. Night Rain (talk) 19:40, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Fanfic Stats on AO3

User:Aliandry was talking about updating the the fic stats, but keeping the current numbers as well, to show change in the fandom over time. I think a table might be a good way to show this? Gonna try it out in here:

Pairing	Stats (19 Sep 2023)	Stats (16 Sep 2023) (public only)	Stats (02 Nov 2023)
Astarion/Tav (default Player Character name):	1,244		3,098
Astarion/Original Characters:	1,269		743 or 2628 (including synned tags and subtags)
Astarion/Original Female Characters:	805		1,567
Astarion/Charname:	371		574
Astarion/Original Male Characters:	390		782
Astarion/Reader:	398		848
Astarion/The Dark Urge:	176		561
Astarion/You:	67		162

More stats from the page, featuring Astarion/Specific NPCS:

Pairing	Stats (19 Sep 2023)	Stats (16 Sep 2023) (public only)	Stats (02 Nov 2023)
Astarion/Player Character/Halsin	24		141
Astarion/Gale (known as BloodWeave):	66		437
Astarion/Halsin (known as Halstarion):	50		195
Astarion/Wyll (known as BloodPact):	29		92
Astarion/Lae'zel:	12		15
Astarion/Karlach (know as FireBlood):	4		31
Astarion/Shadowheart:	4		14

References:

Goostarion

This seems like a relatively common trope based on my search for Astarion fanart. Should it be covered here or in its own article per the precedent Tunalock, Fawnlock, etc.? Night Rain (talk) 21:07, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

I've also seen the cat variant meme often. I think the Goostarion is enough for its own page at this point considering the popularity and also the amount of fans that seem confused about its origins. Aliandry (talk) 20:43, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Cleaning up the references

Should we agree on a format for the references we've been placing on the page? I recently checked on the Citation page that had been recommended for use and found it had been deleted. Cite_Web Aliandry (talk) 01:43, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Definitely. I don't want to be a negative Nancy, but the long, descriptive references have been chafing against my OCD tendencies. Shorter, more consistent formatting would be ideal, I think. I can add this to my agenda should we reach consensus here. Night Rain (talk) 02:44, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Trope Art?

I've collected some CC-licensed art that I haven't uploaded because I didn't want to spam the gallery. But there's pieces that might be useful as illustrations of the new and expanded content in the "Tropes" section. Varying degrees of NSFW here.

• Astarion by JattGoi – shirtless in bondage gear
• Astarion from Baldur's gate by Shankss991 – shirtless with collar and manacles
• Astarion - Revisions by Ramiplss – blood, immediate aftermath of Cazador's torture (archive.today copy viewable without log-in)

Night Rain (talk) 07:15, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Addition of a possible "Patch Differences" topic?

Similarly to how there is "Full Release Vs. Early Access", it seems that with so many new patches and the introduction of so many different little facets of the character, it would be useful to keep them organized in one place. There is specific Patch wank amongst fans as well, and it's related to Ascendarion!Wank as well as homophobia in fan interactions. Aliandry (talk) 13:08, 23 February 2024 (UTC)