FanloreProject talk:Baldur's Gate

The project begins!

Hello! this is a new project page that will hopefully make it easier to find what to work on for Baldur's Gate pages! And now our talk page isn't a redlink any more, heh. -- FBV (talk) 08:53, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Voice Actor pages

It looks like a lot of VAs take part in fannish interactions, commenting on fanart and so on on streams, social media, etc. I'm familiar with Neil Newbon but not the others - it might be a good idea to gather good examples of fannish interactions and figure out which pages we want to create. -- FBV (talk) 23:15, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure that interaction with fans is ideal as a litmus test for whether a voice actor warrants independent coverage on Fanlore. I feel like the criteria for inclusion should allow for fandoms centered around VAs and not just the characters they voice. There's gotta be a fandom for Neil Newbon's voice that exists parallel to but independent of Astarion fandom. I once played a rather bland (IMO) audio-based mobile game because it involved listening to Benedict Cumberbatch. (From what I remember, the game was designed to be playable by visually-impaired people, so kudos to the developer for doing something novel and inclusive!)

It also seems like Fanlore's coverage of voice actors in video-game fandoms sometimes isn't as developed as coverage of ships, characters, zines, etc. We currently don't have articles for Jennifer Hale or Tara Strong, and they might be considered something of legends in the field. I've wanted to create articles on Adam Howden and Greg Ellis to remove redlinks from the Anders (Dragon Age) article before it's featured on the main page. But I wouldn't want to create a placeholder stub for Ellis. It would feel like unintentionally sanitizing his extremely problematic history.

Anyway, these are just some random considerations that sprang to mind. This definitely seems like a good goal for this project to work toward. Night Rain (talk) 08:34, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

For Neil Newbon I think the case is pretty clear-cut, but it's true for others this may not be the case. At the very least I think we need a Neil Newbon page. It's true that you'll see VAs doing marketing and stuff and that's not, on its own, really fanlore-worthy. If the others aren't as involved we could just do a roundup on the BG3 page or something of interesting moments, though I do think Devora Wilde (Lae'zel) and Dave Jones (Halsin) have been doing stuff that we want to document. -- FBV (talk) 09:49, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree that Newbon is clearly the standout among the cast. That said, the other VAs may not be as active or favoured in BG fandom, but they could potentially be Fanlore-notable for their other work. It's also worth taking into account that the popularity of actors/characters/etc. can vary widely by region. Like, just based on my attempts to find non-ship-related fanart of Gale, it seems that he's more popular in East Asia than in English fandom. So it might appear that a character or actor doesn't have a meaningful fandom but that could only be because the full picture isn't clear due to language barriers. Night Rain (talk) 12:55, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Already mentioned in Discord group, but considering the fannish voice acting Dave Jones has been doing for fanart (for free) plus his interaction with other fanart and the effect that has had in the creation of more fanart/fanfic, I think there's enough for a page. I'll have a look at Wilde's stuff as well, because I'm not familiar with it. Aliandry (talk) 13:27, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Navbox colour

I know this a trivial complaint, but the navbox is a rather vivid yellow, and I personally find it a bit distracting. Could we opt for a more subdued colour? A blue reminiscent of that used in the official cover art, maybe? Night Rain (talk) 13:05, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I was trying to pick a color that didn't collide with the blue of FanloreProject:Genshin_Impact/NavBox too much, since that one is the other newly active project. I went for a yellow because the BG3 logo itself is gold. You're right that it's a bit bright right now though, maybe we could go for a more subdued darker/golder yellow that looks better and more gold-copper-ey like the BG3 logo?

Here are the colors we're currently using: For underlines in the project page, #8C730C. Navbox colors (first two are also used in project page in "pages to create" sections): Title background: #f1c232. Section headers background: #efd37d. General Background: #f5e4b1 -- FBV (talk) 22:05, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

There are plenty of fandoms for which navboxes might be created. It likely isn't feasible for every one to be assigned a unique colour. We could consider assigning colours to navboxes based on medium or genre to simplify the process. Or we might select colours case-by-case, even if that means some get re-used. Maybe with certain colours reserved exclusively for huge juggernaut fandoms (Star Wars, MCU) to avoid confusion. I'm probably overthinking this a bit. XD In the meantime I agree with toning down the gold as a solution. Night Rain (talk) 19:03, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Ran a few color swatches past the channel in Discord and it seemed people were in favor of https://www.color-hex.com/color-palette/1036909: #ffc671 for the top and bottom bar, #ffdaa3 for the side bar, #ffeccf for the interior panel with links. I'll make the changeover for the navbox and also update the "pages we want" colors on the project page to use these if that sounds good to everyone -- FBV (talk) 23:49, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Actually based on feedback from the channel we'll use #bda964 #d8c991 #e9deb5 for the navbox, #a9913b for horizontal bars -- FBV (talk) 12:41, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Both palettes are an improvement in my opinion. But I like the second option (the one with #bda964) more. Seems a bit more gold than mustardy (the original) or orange-ish (kumquat palette). Night Rain (talk) 15:53, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I'd also suggest editing the navbox so that it doesn't automatically add articles to Category:Baldur's Gate. This creates redundancy by listing ship and character articles in the main category in addition to the sub-categories. Night Rain (talk) 16:07, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for taking care of that! -- FBV (talk) 20:58, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

The Bear Scene

Has the Halsin love scene become a big enough meme to warrant coverage in an independent article? It's got its own article on Know Your Meme, plus it's drawn extensive coverage and commentary in the gaming press from outfits such as Polygon, Kotaku, and Dexerto. It's also inspired fanworks such as multiple versions of the Anakin/Padmé meme. Night Rain (talk)

I'd say so, although it's not currently as popular as it was (I suppose it's no longer odd to have a passionate night with a bear). It was definitely something that helped popularise the Astarion/Halsin pairing (and the wildshape smut within the fandom in general). Aliandry (talk) 02:43, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I imagine the novelty or shock factor has work off. It does seem like this got as much attemtion as it did due to the reactions of non-BG fans. But it would still be neat to have an article focusing on it through the lens of fannish expression rather than meme culture. Might also be worth considering working a mention into relevant articles like Shapeshifter or Animal Transformation. Night Rain (talk) 21:05, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Character page titles

Some characters have surnames even if they aren't aren't used or referenced much. Should surnames be included in article titles (e.g. Gale Dekarios over Gale)? It's early in the project and I feel like we might benefit from hammering out a standard now. It would be tricker to change course once things are more developed and there are more article links to break. Night Rain (talk) 16:34, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

That would definitely help with some issues like Gale being a very general sounding word, too. -- FBV (talk) 10:08, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Should we also do the same for the other characters even though their names are more unique? Karlach is also Karlach Cliffgate. Shadowheart (although her "real" name is less necessary as it won't affect her article title) is Jenevelle Hallowleaf. Wyll is Wyll Ravengard. There's also Minthara Baenre. Aliandry (talk) 02:49, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

The Forgotten Realms Wiki includes character surnames in article titles. The exception is Shadowheart. I expect this is because her birth name is a spoiler and because she continues using "Shadowheart" when offered a choice. If we decide to include surnames in article titles, I suggest making the same exception, and using "Shadowheart" over her previous name. Night Rain (talk) 21:58, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree on the Shadowheart issue - if another page named Shadowheart needs to be created later, we can disambiguate at that time. -- FBV (talk) 23:20, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Featured Article?

I think it would be cool to nominate a BG3-related article for Featured Article status. Astarion is an obvious forerunner since it's already quite well-developed. But there's other possibilities. Thoughts? Night Rain (talk) 06:07, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree, I think a lot of pages have come a long way and Astarion is the star of the show. The project is doing pretty well and if people click around off of the Astarion page they will find lots of other good pages. I think that the article has all the content a featured article needs. Three things I would change to give it the best chance (My guess is others will ask for these changes once it is submitted, so we might as well do it first):

1. Create a stub for Neil Newbon so we don't have a redlink in the infobox.

2. Include a sentence in the introductory section about fandom so it's not just canon information (ex, Pete Wisdom has the sentence "He was a popular character for fanfic in the late 1990s/early 2000s, almost entirely due to the work of Luba Kmetyk and her Fonts of Wisdom archive." in the intro)

3. Take the "Questline Endings" and "Full Release vs Early Access" sections and make them subheaders of "Canon" rather than their own top-level sections (I'm a bit less sure on this one, but I think it might be requested and make sense)

I think even without these changes, there's a good chance it gets featured, and it would be a great way to draw attention to the project. Would love to hear from the other project contributors as well on prepping this article or others for featuring, or if there's anything else we ought to do to the project before submitting! -- FBV (talk) 21:42, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Created a stub for Newbon and I'll get around to do the rest -my idea is to pick up the LBD line from pairings and move it up, because it fits with the theme from the Pete Wisdom page (I was also unsure where to put the Endings and FR/EA parts, but Canon sounds a good idea). I think that, with Astarion's popularity and the game having won so many awards, it's a great page to feature. I have some more to add, but I'm still a bit sick and making sure non-english stuff gets on Fanlore kinda took over, but I'll shift gears.

And it needs to be said that the fanfiction area is very outdated and I haven't finished the graphs but I should have them before New Years? Hopefully? But yeah, that whole thing has cobwebs and the numbers have shifted a lot. Aliandry (talk) 22:42, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

No worries! I've been distracted with side projects too. There's some stuff I'd like to add to the Astarion article. Mostly coverage of Goostarion, Batstarion, and other fannish memes. (What's with the black nail polish I keep seeing in fanart?) I'd also like to create more articles for tropes under "Common Storylines & Tropes." "Where were you when I was new?" might warrant its own page.

The one major structural change I'd propose to existing content would be to tighten the "Canon" section. I brought this up previously on the article talk page, but I still foresee it being a sticking point in an FA nomination. I feel the opening part would function better as a linear synopsis of Astarion's known backstory and major plot points in his in-game questline. Most of the first paragraph and other bits could be transferred to a new section something like the "Sexuality and Romance Arc" section of Anders (Dragon Age). That would also create space for covering fannish interpretations of Astarion as ace and demisexual. Also maybe integrating some quotes highlighting the (overwhelmingly positive) reception of BG3's exploration of themes of trauma, healing, and cycles of abuse.

Anyway, I hope the holidays treat everyone well! Planning on getting some gaming in myself. My Tav is still vacillating between Gale and Astarion. XD Night Rain (talk) 23:34, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

+1 on tightening up the canon section a bit, now that it's been rearranged it does feel a bit canon-focused. I'll see what I can do tomorrow evening if nobody gets to it by then. As for me, I'm doing a new Durge run, hehe. I hope everyone is having nice holidays! -- FBV (talk) 20:56, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Went ahead and reworked the "Canon" section. Some stuff added, some stuff set aside, at least for now. The pre-overhaul version is here. Some of the cut material may be possible to re-integrate. But I do feel the section works better as a play-by-play of canon events that mostly refrains from deeper analysis of Astarion's interior thoughts and motivations. Those things would be better expanded in other sections, I think. Coverage of non-Ascended!Astarion's endings needs to be expanded. I've also probably made mistakes since I'm still in early game and going off of vids (though I'm happy to report my Tav's love triangle has now resolved in Astarion's favour XD). Night Rain (talk) 08:29, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

This also may be putting the cart before the horse, but are there other articles or things about the project we want to tidy up along with the featured article? Baldur's Gate, Astarion/Tav, and a couple others seem like they will get clickthroughs from Astarion once it starts getting more attention. -- FBV (talk) 08:59, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I didn't mean for the FA nomination to become the main focus of this project. Everyone should feel free to continue working in whatever areas interest them most! Personally, I'd love to give Gale's article some attention when I get a chance. My only suggestion here would be to work toward developing all the non-Astarion origin character articles to similar degree. That way it won't seem like we're neglecting them to focus disproportinately on Astarion. I mean, we kind of are, but that's a fandom-wide phenomenon, lol. Night Rain (talk) 23:07, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

User:FireBatVillain – Could I ask you to take a peek at Talk:Astarion/Tav when you get a chance? Another voice weighing might be help us find a way forward in terms of how to best cover this information in the article. Night Rain (talk) 23:12, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Gendering Tav

How should we proceed when the gender of a particular Tav isn't known? This is a dilemma I've faced when describing and categorizing fanart with Tav. Not all fanart has a description or tags that make Tav's intended gender clear. I've tried to stop making appearance-based assumptions since BG3 provides a canonical non-binary option. I suppose I'm proposing that we functionally treat every Tav as non-binary (i.e., "they/them" pronouns) unless a binary gender is specified. Night Rain (talk) 08:14, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I think using "they/them" unless in a context where it's specified explicitly is a good idea. This will avoid inaccuracies. Examples where we'd want to use something other than they/them would be situations like: the artist refers to the character by a pronoun in a caption or title, fanart of a particular fic or run where Tav is a certain gender, a fic where Tav has a specified gender, etc. -- FBV (talk) 08:47, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I tend to avoid using any sort of pronoun when it isn't specified (as using they/them to refer to someone using other pronouns can also be offensive, and even though we are talking about characters, fans feel really strongly about their OCs. Some are made in their image, which can be a sensitive topic and we should remember that this fandom is full with self-inserts and reader-inserts as well). There are plenty of examples with specific and explicit gender identity pronouns to provide a good enough picture of just how different Tavs can be. So I think it doesn't really matter if we cannot find the pronoun for some Tavs/Turges, there are enough they/thems, She/hers and He/hims (in-game canon pronouns) plus other explicit pronouns to provide an ample picture of fandom, using simply Tav when the pronoun is unknown could be a solution. Aliandry (talk) 22:13, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I believe we should try to identify whether Tavs/Durges are intended to be non-binary, female, or male. But this might not be possible or practical in every single case. Some artists include detailed descriptions and tags when they post their work while others don't. Artists are always welcome to correct us if we make an error. Changing the pronouns used in an article is quick and easy.

That said I see a greater potential for unintentionally causing offence by composing sentences to avoid pronouns than by defaulting to singular "they." There's this thing that transphobes do – and, to be clear, I am not suggesting anyone here fits that description – where they contort sentences into unnatural garbles to avoid using pronouns. They are pointedly refusing to recognize trans people's genders, but they also don't want to be called out for misgendering. So the result is absolute clunkers like "I've loved Elliot Page in everything I've seen Elliot Page in."

We can always fix it if we default to "they/them" with a Tav/Durge who's correctly "he/him" or "she/her." I expect most BG3 fans will be understanding. But I worry that using the same language as people trying to deliberately diminish or reject non-binary and trans identities will leave a bad taste that's harder to wash out. Night Rain (talk) 00:26, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

If the PC is identified, the pronouns should be used when necessary, that's not an issue.

Regarding the use of no pronoun as being more offensive than using an incorrect pronoun, I have heard and and experienced the opposite (I'm queersocial and don't have a binary gender myself). Transphobes come in many flavours and have no qualms calling people "they" (which when the chosen pronoun is obviously not rude or offensive) with the intent of refusing to recognise trans/non-binary people's identities based purely on their looks by leaving them in the limbo, implicating they cannot recognise their gender or associating them with an object. There's also a use of "they" as a catch all when people do not appear binary, as a way to not appear transphobic as well, by, for example, refusing to call a trans woman "she", so all these arguments should be taken into account (again, because many of these Tavs/Turges are in fact, meant to represent the likeness and be the avatar of a real person).

My proposal was not to use the same language homophobes use (or any sort of dogwhistle, like infantile speech, obviously), but to be considerate with the use of pronouns. I say this also because most instances I've seen of pronouns being used for a singular PC have been in art description tags where using a neutral tag like "Origin/Tav" when the pronoun is not known shouldn't cause grief to anyone. For story tags the pronouns tend to be clear. For other examples, such as descriptive text, for which there don't seem to be as many instances, clunky or "unnatural garble" prose could be (and has been) avoided in many ways through different grammar structures with, if truly needed and as a last resort, "they" being a descriptor for "unknown person" with intent to correct once more information is gained/we are warned (I find it more likely that the artist will never find the page). Tav, Turge and Durge are being used as names and descriptors themselves (e.g. This is a Tav. This is Tav), adding to them seems to work without ruining the flow of text or possibly offending or causing grief to anyone: A tiefling Tav, a vampire Durge, a custom Tav, the player character etc.Aliandry (talk) 03:12, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Going forward

To avoid a repeat of this, I'd recommend this project either 1) refrain from making editorial decisions about articles through off-wiki discussions that are not accessible to all participants, or 2) clearly signpost that Discord participation is a requirement for involvement in this project. I don't appreciate being accused of causing "needless grief" because I'm not privy to decisions made off-wiki. I'm departing this project, in any case. It's been fun, and good luck. Night Rain (talk) 04:44, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Navbar Update: Another row?

As we begin expanding this project to cover things other than just characters and ships, we may want to add another row to our Navbar. Currently we have characters and relationships. We're putting more information in on tropes, memes, fannish happenings, meta essays, actors, and so on, and starting to see articles for that. How do we feel about adding a new row to the navbar? Naruto has "Other" as a line in its navbox, for example. -- FBV (talk) 10:42, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

I think that's a great idea. What would we put in for now? I'm having a quick look at the Naruto Project and noticed they also have space for fanfiction. That could be interesting for this project, considering how at least two very popular BG3 fanfics have/had interesting happenings regarding them. Aliandry (talk) 21:55, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I just noticed we had "fanfiction" as Aspirational. Whoops, sorry. Would a Category:Baldur's Gate Tropes or something similar eventually be necessary? Art wise, we already have quite a few. Aliandry (talk) 22:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Maybe for now let's go for "Other" because we can put big fics, tropes, and articles like the Newbon article in there? We can break it up further in the future if it expands. -- FBV (talk) 09:34, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

That sounds great! Aliandry (talk) 14:17, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Done! Let me know what you think. FanloreProject:Baldur's Gate/NavBox I also made it much easier to add items by changing how the code works, you should just be able to add them as bullet points now. -- FBV (talk) 23:20, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Navbar update -> Navbox metatemplate

I've updated the navigation bar FanloreProject:Baldur's_Gate/NavBox to be much, much simpler: styles are just set in one section on the top, and each row should be very easy to add items to now. Please feel welcome to add items as needed to it now, and let me know if the cosmetic changes I've done have caused any problems - they're easy to fix/revert. -- FBV (talk) 10:58, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you so much! I've checked it out. Looks nice and, I think, accessible as well. Aliandry (talk) 11:04, 17 February 2024 (UTC)