Talk:T'hy'la (Star Trek: TOS anthology)/Issues 21-30

I noticed a title collison with the ST:TOS K/S story "Walking on Broken Glass" with a Star Wars slash story of the same title, by a different author. This is evident in the 'Reactions and Reviews" section for T'HY'LA #27, where the link from the Trek story's title goes to the info page for the Star Wars story (featuring Qui-Gon, so from the later movies).

How detailed do you want to go?

Thanks User:Mrs. Potato Head for the additional edits to #29. I was wondering how far Fanlore wants to go in terms of cataloging info about these zines. I ask because issue #158 of the K/S Press has an entire zine review for #29. Would it be appropriate, for example, to create pages for each of the stories in that issue and include the review of those stories? Or to create a page for that issue of the K/S Press and include it in there, with a link to the T'hy'la 29 section? Or none of the above? amandawarrington (talk) 09:51, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I can't answer for "Fanlore" but personally, I'm being pretty detailed on these and SLOWLY making my way through them. I find the fan comments about these fanworks to be fascinating in their scope, topics, and enthusiasm. They also represent a form of fannish engagement and style that is, in many ways, long gone. Comments on fanworks today are brief, usually only complimentary, and are often only represented by the click of a "kudos" button. But I digress...

My opinion is that between NTS, CT, LOC Connection, and K/S Press, pretty much all the material will have comments from fans. K/Sers are a prolific bunch, both in terms of creating the material, and then commenting about it! When I first started adding the reviews to the zines, I only added novels and full zine reviews as I didn't have a good system for adding individual stories. (You can see the old bones of some of my clumsier attempts scattered about). Then, after I started adding the comments for each story, I soon became aware of how much space these individual comments took up on each page, essentially overwhelming them. So, I've been making an article for each story that has at least one fairly meaty comment (and as soon as I add that comment, more spring out of the woodwork!) and a link on the zine page to each story. I've kept the reviews of the art and of poems on the zine page as there aren't as many of them. It's been complicated work, with many disambiguations and details to remember, but I kind of have a system at this point that makes it easier. And the further I go along, the easier it gets, especially as I've laid a lot of groundwork in anticipation of more reviews. Right now, I've "done" all of NTS, CT, LOC Connection, some of On the Doubles (wish I had more!!), and about 35 issues of K/S Press (almost all at the beginning, with a few later ones sprinkled in).

So -- to answer your original question, if it were me, I'd create a page for each of the stories reviewed in #158, and then add the reviews to those stories. Then, for issue #158 itself (which I'm not even close to, I probably won't get there until this fall), note that there are reviews for those zines. You can look at earlier issues to see how they were done. All of this is simply my own opinion and system, and you can, of course, do what you think best! --Mrs. Potato Head (talk) 14:02, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Well thanks for that answer - it makes a lot of sense, and I agree, I do find the comments interesting. I agree too, that people don't do much in the way of meaty comments any more, more's the pity (and I love and hate the kudos button!). I started out doing that on the K/S archive - all my early comments were written in the style of a review. Kathy R and I also did some reviews in the LJ kirkspock comm which I think could be added.

How would you feel about me adding stuff in here and there as I find things from the K/S Press and you can follow me and tidy up anything that needs it so it fits your format. I'll take a look at what you've done so far and follow that as a guide/template. I can start by creating articles for the other stories from T'hy'la 29 and their attendant comments. amandawarrington (talk) 14:36, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I both love and loathe the kudos button, too.

I've not been adding the commenter's name in any way as I don't know any of them, and without permission, I worry about privacy stuff. But you may have more information on each LoCer's desires and opinion about being identified.

Any and all work you do on what The K/S Press touches (and the LJ comm, as it would add even more scope) is fantastic. And the company will be fun, too. ;-) --Mrs. Potato Head (talk) 14:45, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I can't promise to be consistent, but will happily add stuff. I was thinking of working backwards with the K/S Press from the most recent and at some point we'll meet in the middle.

I admit I hadn't considered the privacy issue for commenters' names. Of the ones I included for Balance, I shortened the surname of the first one (though I know it's not actually her real name), the second was only a first name, and the third was by an established writer and I didn't think it would be an issue. I'm partway through a long catch-up email with Kathy R (who I'll be seeing in a couple of weeks) and will ask her her opinion on that one.

I'll dig out some of the old reviews I and Kathy R have written on the K/S archive and the LJ comm and include them where appropriate (some are for what were originally zine contributions which I'll need to cross-reference, but some are for stories only published online. I notice that some stories are simply in the format: The Epic Tale and some are: The Epic Tale (A TOS Story). I think if a lot of stories are going to be added, they'll need that disambiguation, so I'll use that format from now on. amandawarrington (talk) 15:15, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I think your decision on name use is sound, though checking with Kathy R is wise, too. Yu know the fans themselves far better than I. For me, I just made a blanket decsision when I started the letterzines years ago to not use names only because making decisions for each and every one was too complicated, and very often, changeable. I know that it would be helpful to know who was saying what, but attitribution just got too tricky, and the privacy thing with letterzines (esp the older ones where people used their legal names, along with phone numbers and addresses...) was my first concern.

Regarding disambiguation, you're right, it's complicated and takes some work. "The Epic Tale" (if it's the only one on Fanlore), "The Epic Tale (Star Trek: TOS story)" if that's what's needed to break the conflict with another page, or "The Epic Tale (Star Trek: TOS story by Fannish Fan)" as the last resort. It shouldn't ever have to go farther than that. There's a fair amount of backtracking and repair work to other pages when you get to even the second step in a conflict like that. I'll try to follow along and help if needed, Amanda.

Working backwards is good, though I'd not start at anything newer than a year as the zine is current, and there needs to be incentive for folks to want to subscribe. I think MeeDee talked to Kathy R about this cut-off, and it was agreed this was a good idea.

If you'd add the zines reviewed to the individual K/S Press pages themselves, that'd be great, both to save time later, and for future references. It's okay to leave other things on those pages blank (the summaries of content, the comments by fans...). Those are a ton of work, and to me, represent a completely separate project. Just getting the zine comments is fantastic enough.

Thanks for working (and playing!) with me on this, Amanda. It'll be fun (and less lonely...) Whatever you can do will be super. --Mrs. Potato Head (talk) 16:10, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I've emailed Kathy regarding the use of names and will get back to you with her thoughts. And I note, not to do any less than a year old. I'm happy to add any zine or story reviews I find. I didn't subscribe to the KSP until 2009 so I don't go back that far. But I'm sure Kathy wouldn't mind sending me earlier issues for the Fanlore project.

Thanks for the clarification on the issue of disambiguation - that's very helpful.

Happy to work (and play) with you on it, :) though I don't know how consistent I'll be as I'm working on a number of projects. amandawarrington (talk) 22:36, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

A couple of questions

For User talk:Mrs. Potato Head

As I'm going through each edition of the KSP, I'm adding the reviews for stories, but rather than make new pages for each review, I'm leaving them on the page for the zine they're in, with the thought that at a later point, someone might go through the zines and tidy that up where it makes sense to, as it would be too much work for each issue to have to do that. Is that okay?

I've noticed there's no consistency in the description of zines in the disambiguation page. So, for example, T'hy'la is described as a Star Trek: TOS anthology, First Time as a series of K/S zines, Scattered Stars as a Star Trek: TOS zine when none of those is strictly entirely correct. They should all be listed as a Star Trek: TOS K/S anthology zine which I know is a mouthful but will give the searcher a clear idea, and since there aren't any reboot zines (there's one ezine) I'd argue you could drop the TOS part as anyone searching Trek will know that K/S is going to be TOS. What are your thoughts?

Also FYI, I've created a new set of pages for more recent editions of K/S Press (I hope I did it right), as I only subscribed from edition #149. There are plenty for me to catalogue up to the end of 2011 before I start asking Kathy for back editions and start working my way backwards. :)

The reviews are super, Amanda. I've been doing a lot of work on the "backend" in an attempt to make adding these individual stories easier down the line.

As for consistency in article names, T'hy'la is named that way as there are other zines called T'hy'la, as well as numerous stories and that was the best way to break the conflict. Scattered Stars is named that way because there is only one zine, but there is only, at this time, one story with that title. The disambiguation only goes as far as needed to break the conflict. The disambiguation should be something in the background that only leads a fan to the correct page, not as a general descriptive theme. The descriptive language on each page should, of course, reflect the actual information in a way that makes sense -- if you think that both T'hy'la and Scattered Stars should be described on their pages as "a Star Trek: TOS K/S anthology zine," then go ahead and change both and any others you think make sense. I don't think we can drop the TOS part as K/S, despite the fact there are no reboot zines, there are many reboot fics and other AOS pages.

I'll take a look at the pages you made at K/S Press. There is no "right," only what I stumbled around and created through trial and error over the past three years. :-)

I love having your company, in any way you feel comfortable with, on this project, Amanda. --Mrs. Potato Head (talk) 00:34, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't know if it was you, but I noticed a lot of the zine pages I went to, to add comments already had a review link set up for each story, so I ended up using those to create pages for those stories. I did hit a wall though when in #152 I came across a review of a story on the archive that was never published in a zine. What do I do about those? It's obviously not appropriate to add it to the K/S Archive page, so I ended up omitting it.

I've been altering the disambiguation pages for zines where I find them to give them a more consistent description.

I'm enjoying doing this but I'm about to go on vacation for 3 weeks. :-) I'll be connected but may not be able to do that much while away. amandawarrington (talk) 11:26, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I see what you mean about the disambiguation pages being in consistant in description. (I'd thought you'd meant the disambiguation itself). Yes, those are a bit of a mess as I when I started I didn't have a clear plan. Then the disambiguations themselves became so tricky that it was all I could do to get them sorted out and unsnarled; the description later suffered. Thank you for making them clearer.

Was the story in #152 posted online only, not in a zine? If so, I'd mention it on the K/S Press page if you can. Someone may want to go back and add it. Besides, it's a historical marker in that zine when online starts to bump up against print only. If the story wasn't K/S, though, I'd leave it off.

A three-week vacation sounds wonderful. :-) --Mrs. Potato Head (talk) 13:11, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes the story in #152 was only posted online. As you suggested, I included it as a bullet point and will do that for any others I come across. It'll become increasingly common with the sheer number of online stories, although the majority of contributors to the KSP are TOS fans. One thing I haven't been doing in creating pages for the stories, is to check if they're online. I'll make a point of at least checking the K/S Archive for future pages.

Vacation begins tomorrow with an 11-hour flight to Los Angeles. I try to get to California 2-3 times a year - I love it there and would move in an instant if immigration would let me! But I think they think they already have too many Brits!  :-) Thanks for your help, and for going into the pages I've worked on, 'sweeping up and tucking in the sheets' after me. ;-) amandawarrington (talk) 23:35, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't check for things online at this point, though I always add the link if it's already on the Fanlore zine page. Hopefully, folks can come along later and make that a project.

You will probably never want to take a holiday where I live, at least this time of year; it was -15 F (-26 C) last night.

As for my sweeping up and tucking in the sheets, I'm happy to do it, and I'm ecstatic when I see you doing it for me. I hope it encourages others, as the more the merrier. It's a fun project, isn't it? --Mrs. Potato Head (talk) 00:52, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

individual pages for fan art

I think having individual pages for individual fanart pieces is a fabulous idea. I made one a while ago: Lonely Warrior. There's certainly enough commentary for many pieces. The only problem I can think of off-hand, though, is to make a page, the art has to have a name. This isn't a problem for some things, but will be for others. --MPH (talk) 16:10, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Searching for more art for Side By Side

The poem Daredevil by Diegina, published in T'hy'la 26, was also included in the online zine Side By Side 22. (I am part of a project to recover Side By Side onto AO3.) Both the accompanying artworks were also included and are now gone from the Wayback Machine. One of the pictures (File:Thyla26-2.jpg) has been uploaded to Fanlore already so I grabbed a copy, but the second one I haven't been able to find. Can anyone assist? Sahviere (talk) 07:57, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Hmm, okay, perhaps what I thought was a separate artwork is not from the zine at all. I'd be grateful if someone could confirm how many artworks the poem actually had. Sahviere (talk) 08:16, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I just sent you an email. Let me know if you don't receive it? --MPH (talk) 12:25, 13 June 2019 (UTC)