Talk:List of Military Fandoms

Would the Navy count as military? Cos there's a long list of Age of Sail fandoms that could be included here. Espresso Addict 08:38, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

My opinion: since the list is an "informal" one, that if a fan feels a fandom is military, then go ahead and put it on there. Perhaps adding a qualifier, like "Age of Sail" in parenthesis afterwards? --Mrs. Potato Head 12:24, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I've added a few; it seemed a bit odd to put the qualifier against all of them -- see what you think. Espresso Addict 18:34, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I think it looks super. The great thing about a list like this is it is somewhat forgiving and can, hopefully, fill a gap. --Mrs. Potato Head 00:20, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Do we want to split the list by war or century?--æþel 02:24, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I rather like the strange juxtapositions, but that's just me! By war might be quite difficult for the historical series, as they often involved different conflicts. Espresso Addict 05:19, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Persuasion? A military fandom? --Mrs. Potato Head 03:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I thought about this, but I do think so -- it's all about English notions of class as they relate to the Navy, whether wives should be allowed on naval vessels, the pros & cons of marriage during war, and the majority of the characters are either naval officers or married to one. It would, however, be nice to have a proper article on Persuasion; the main Jane Austen fandom one is almost all Pride & Prejudice. I've been thinking of doing Mansfield Park, too. Espresso Addict 04:08, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Being on this list works for me. :-) I was just curious about the connection. --Mrs. Potato Head 04:14, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

There's a heavy military presence and a lot of military tropes in fics when it comes to Stargate SG-1 and Stargate Atlantis (Stargate Universe wasn't as popular with fandom, but still had a lot of military involved), but the shows never concentrated on the military aspects, so, uhm... opinions? Should it go on here as well? --Calajane 10:52, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Moved from Category Talk:Military

I'm not sure how this fits in with Fanlore's category structure--Is it an umbrella fandom (like HBO War Fandom), or just a collection of fandoms whose source texts involve the military? If it's the latter, perhaps this would be better off as a page, e.g. The Military in Fanworks or War in Fanworks or something (and we could integrate info about Served in Combat, Don't Ask Don't Tell, etc.) --sparc 06:41, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

(Man, I hope I'm using this correctly. First time trying to talk!) Sorry, it's not an umbrella term a la HBO War Fandom; it's definitely the latter. Since military fiction is such an established genre, I thought it would be easier for people to find shows in that vein if it were a category. It could just as easily be a page listing shows based on the military, but I'm new at this business, and if I've overstepped my bounds, I'll delete it. :) Missmollyetc 06:58, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Seems like a useful category to me. I can certainly see people potentially wanting to locate such shows, make comparisons, and so on.

If there's a category (rather than just a The Military in Fanworks page), someone making a page for a new military-based fandom source can then simply add Category:Military at the bottom. Otherwise, for people to identify the new fandom as military-related, it would be necessary to locate the The Military in Fanworks page (if we have one), and edit the list on it for each and every new fandom. Otherwise there'd be no complete list—something that a category generates automatically.

That in no way precludes someone writing a page on The Military in Fanworks, of course. In fact, if we don't have such a page, we probably should. I'm sure, as people's attitudes to the military alter over time, the way it gets incorporated into fanworks also changes. --Greer Watson 21:08, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes! That was my thought in creating it. Part of the way I use fanlore is to seek out brave new fandoms, as it were, and searching by category seemed like a good way to speed up searches via subject heading, especially when I don't remember the name of it. This way, people can use Category:Military to find shows that are perhaps like those they've enjoyed before, or explore new ones.

I like the idea of a The Military in Fanworks page, because the way fandom uses and views the military really has changed over time, and not simply in subject matter. Although, to be honest, I don't know how you'd break it down. Would it be how fandom uses military tropes, or the prevalence of uniform!kink, etc.?Missmollyetc 00:13, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

The main issue is where the category fits in the site map. Every category except for specially designated top-level categories needs a parent. If a category doesn't fit anywhere, that's a sign that we need to either delete the category or add a new category hierarchy. I added this category under Fandoms by Source Text, but I'm not sure that it fits. The category as written is also ambiguous and needs to be more clearly defined. Do we include Stargate, for example?

We could easily create a page on Military Fandoms. We have a precedent: Buddy Cop Fandom, which describes not a single umbrella fandom, but a common type of fandom that appears in response to a favorite canon element/genre. The Military in Fanworks sounds like a great trope page, but it's not quite the same as a page that lists military canons (and maybe goes on to discuss/link to meta on why we love military canon.... I know why I love military canon....), since we can have military AU fanworks for non-military canon. I'd love to see an overview page to describe Canon Elements That Are Like Catnips To Fans And Here Is A List Of Otherwise Completely Baffling Fandoms That Exist Soley Because Of This. Or perhaps something more pithy.--æþel 00:34, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

This is what I was thinking -- this doesn't seem like it belongs in Fandoms by Source Text. Perhaps if there's sufficient demand we could have a Category:Fandoms by Genre? It seems like a reasonable extension of Category:Fandoms by Canon Type, but of course genres are much harder to define and there'll be issues over what "counts" as a certain genre, and maybe what should be considered a genre altogether... --sparc 01:37, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Category:Fandoms by Genre scares me. I anticipate, if not wank, then a total mess. But now that you mention it, we could put Buddy Cop Fandom and Military Fandoms in Category:Fandoms by Canon Type!--æþel 02:05, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

While I'm unsure of how to do it, I've always hoped for a way to "find" the military fandoms (though my brain specifically went to WW2 ones). Another similar type of fandom is the American West -- Bonanza, Lancer, Wild Wild West, Magnificent 7, Young Riders... How to label that, well, another can of worms. --Mrs. Potato Head 02:15, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

+1 on Military Fandoms instead of a Military category. There are usually several ways to solve the same problem and on Fanlore we went the way of making pages for these kind of thematic connections. For example Buddy Cop Fandom, Vampires, Western, etc. --Doro 14:36, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

I think, though, that one of the problems with all of the pages you mention is the fact that thematic articles typically start with a goodish section of text discussing the genre: defining it, describing its history, discussing the way it has shifted over time, and pointing out the popularity of crossovers and AUs (and so on). Somewhere down the page, there is an list of source texts. It is usually incomplete and out of date, in as much as smaller fandoms may well have been omitted when it was started and new pages haven't been added.

A category, on the other hand, automatically generates an alphabetical list that includes all fandoms that have been tagged with that term. Clearly there is an argument that the discussion page also belongs in the category, perhaps as its lead article; but having a page about the theme is not a substitute for having a category that collects all pages/categories related to the theme.

I think this is the point that Mrs. Potato Head is also making. She adds Westerns to Military, and you add Cop Shows (specifically Buddy Cop Shows) and Vampires. Most of those have descriptive pages, but how complete are their lists? How would someone quickly locate all the source categories we have for fandoms within any of these? --Greer Watson 19:43, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

I would says the problem isn't that the pages I mentioned have lead sections discussing the genre, it's that a category page doesn't have this because that's just not what category pages are for. Also, talk pages don't belong in categories. The list of fandoms on a page for something like Military Fandoms is as complete as the people editing the wiki make it. The same is true for categories. If no one makes a page for a source canon, it won't be included in any categories either. However, you can list fandoms on a page about something, even if they don't have their own page yet. Also, as aethel said, Fanlore doesn't have freeform tagging. All categories here are part of a structure. The focus of the wiki are fanworks, fan activity, fannish culture, etc. Having a fine tuned tagging system for sorting canons by theme (why canons? why not sort stories, vids, fanart and all other kinds of fanworks as "Military"?) doesn't fit in that structure. The creator of this category already said "It could just as easily be a page listing shows based on the military", so I would suggest going that way to keep it consistent. --Doro 20:42, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

I did say that it could just as easily be a page listing military-based shows, but Greer Watson raises a very good point too. The reason I chose to make it a category, instead of a page, is that a category seemed the simplest solution to collecting a bunch of canons based around a genre in order to aid in searching for those shows. Stargate, as æþel mentioned, would be in that category because it's about military personnel. If someone wanted to make a 'Science Fiction' category it could also be there. Cataloging a work in one category does not preclude its inclusion in another. I just thought since the wiki allows pages concerning canon, and not just the works based upon that canon with attendant links to outside sources, that there should be a way to search for the type of canon--or fanwork--you're looking for, as quickly as possible. Missmollyetc 06:57, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that Fanlore's hierarchical category structure currently has nowhere to put a category like this. Which is to say, if we really want a category for Military fandoms (and I think it's important that pages in the category are just fandoms, not fanworks, or things would get really out of hand), then we have to modify/redesign the category structure to allow for all genre categories (Category:Fandoms by Genre), and also include e.g. Category:Westerns, Category:Science Fiction, Category:Children's Literature, etc. And, ideally, every fandom would have genre categories. So while I think it'd be really cool in principle, it would be a huge undertaking, and (as aethel mentioned above) could be a complete mess and cause all sorts of ~disagreements about what should go where and what should be called what, etc.

So I think we just need to decide whether the convenience of have genre categories (as really, all categories are just convenience) outweighs the effort it would take to have them. If not, then fandom genres/themes should be treated as they are now, and given centralized pages with manually-updated lists of fandoms. (But then, from what I can tell, these pages are all over the place re:categories, from "Fandoms by Source Text" to "Tropes & Genres" to "Glossary"--none of which seem particularly fitting and the lack of a centralized location makes it hard to browse...) --sparc 09:58, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Generally speaking, if we want to change the category structure, we can do so. For this we would need discussion (for example on the DW comm), consensus, a wiki committee decision, and a plan of action -- naming the categories, deciding on what should be included (for example, if there where a military category, could or would Military AUs be a subcategory?), agreeing on who is going to do the work, etc. --Doro 15:28, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

How about a page that is a List of Military Fandoms? There could be a link to it on each canon article. It's how we used to do zines by "category" before we had categories. Those zine lists soon became outdated and unwieldy, but for this purpose, a list page would work as a way to corral shows by smaller genres. It is just one list to update, and could be linked to on other pages as well. There could be a blurb on top of the page stating how inclusion on the list could sometimes be a matter of opinion, something that would take into account differing views of what constitutes "military." I made one specifically for letterzines for this very purpose, and I like the way it works both as a way for fans to find other letterzines (as the category Letterzines and Newsletters is very large), and for me as a way to find them and keep track of things. --Mrs. Potato Head 12:28, 22 August 2012 (UTC) Added: I went ahead and started the list page; if people hate it, we can delete it. --Mrs. Potato Head 13:04, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Good idea! I especially like the LIST ALL THE LISTS link. :D However, the page doesn't have a category and it needs one. --Doro 15:28, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I like the list :) If everyone agrees, can we retire the category? (But keep the interesting discussion.) --Tiyire 10:41, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I think we can retire the category. I'll add List of Military Fandoms to each page. I'm hoping that this solution is along the lines of what Missmollyetc had when first bringing up the subject. --Mrs. Potato Head 11:41, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

If the category is retired, is there any way to keep/rename this page? Not only is it interesting, it raises points that could well be raised again in the future, if only in relation to another genre label. --Greer Watson 23:10, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree, we should keep the discussion - maybe move it to the talk page of the new list? And then we could link it and other talk pages with interesting discussions on a forum post (once we have a public forum) so there's a way to find them. --Tiyire 10:30, 27 August 2012 (UTC)