Talk:Larry Stylinson
This page sees neither too anti-larry nor too pro
Time has passed and not much has changed. Recent edits seem to be calming down high emotion wording and adding details in text and references. Is there still an argument? --Msilfan (talk) 07:34, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
- I see elfwreck stepped in, and I fixed a few things too (mostly citations). Just to be clear: "anti-larries" are only a small subset of the people who don't think larry is real. The page looks ok to me now, but I think there will always be disagreement because the page describes a conspiracy theory and conspiracy theorists will never appreciate their conspiracy theory being described as not true. Presenting both "sides" should not mean pretending that a conspiracy theory isn't one.--aethel (talk) 18:55, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
It read too much like an opinion piece, contained childish wording and terms, and overall just read way too seriously for an fanlore article on boy band conspiracies. also, at the risk of sounding a bit too defense I really don't appreciate you talking about me as if I can't stand the thought of the anti side being presented on this topic. it's important that it is. I reworded things, moved content around and deleted things because it didn't come off as neutral enough, that's just my opinion. it's beyond obvious you're pushing the other side and I was just trying to relax it a bit because come on, it's really not that serious and I seriously doubt many are coming here to read it anyway.
- Thank you for your concern, Umok, and for helping edit this page. Thank you, elfwreck and aethel, for your continued work! --MPH (talk) 14:02, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
break out conspiracy section
I'm thinking of breaking out the "Larry is real" section (plus the Larry Fandom Language and See Also sections) into its own page to encourage more actual shipping info here. I don't read much larry fic, so I don't know enough to add it, but more info on tropes would be good.--aethel (talk) 01:00, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
- Turned out to be pretty easy. Check out Larry Is Real.--aethel (talk) 01:35, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think this should have its own section, as Larry Is Real is a damaging and demonstrably false conspiracy theory that both Harry and Louis have denied and said harmed their relationships with each other and their significant others. "Fair and balanced" shouldn't mean giving equal credence to blatantly misleading and false information just so that both sides have equal page space. It would be like devoting an equal amount of time to QAnon as actual news and acting like both are valid.Ulanbataar (talk) 22:02, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- Larries are a part of this fandom as well and we should explain the beliefs of Larries so that people are able to pick out a side once they have seen both. Also honestly Larry isn't that damaging. Like so what if some people think that two members of a boyband from over 5 years ago are in a relationship. It literally hurts no one it's no different than people thinking that like, for example, Louis and Danielle are secretly together. "Fair and balanced" should mean that both sides are presented with what they believe and people are able to make their own decisions. Unless Louis and Harry are actively checking the "Larry is Real" section which would be their own decision it would not harm anyone. I say add like, "some larries believe that.." as a disclaimer before things without evidence but leave videos as they are because people should be able draw their own conclusions and get educated on what they are arguing for or against. Lastly comparing a group of essentially shippers in a fandom to QAnon is a bit rude and sort of offensive so you might not want to do that in the future. StringQuartets&ChiaPets (talk) 22:47, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- It is damaging in that it perpetuates conspiracy theories like the idea of "powerful Jews own the media and are corrupt" (why Larries hate the Azoffs, Ben Winston, etc), and encourages cultlike behaviors and beliefs that spill outside of fandom and into the real world, like when Larries send death threats to Briana and Freddie, an actual human child. There is no "two sides to pick which to believe" when one has been proven to be false. That's like saying people should get to pick whether they think gravity is holding things down to the earth or whether we're all tied down by invisible strings marionetted by an ogre. "Educating people on why Larrie is real" is just spreading a conspiracy theory with no basis in fact that both Harry and Louis have said is why they're literally not even friends anymore.Ulanbataar (talk) 23:43, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- Moved the "Why people believe in Larry" sections of examples to Larry Is Real.
- Some Larries believe these theories some do not. The only thing required to be a Larrie is to think that Louis and Harry are or were in a relationship at some point. Larry is just like a non-canon ship. People are allowed to support and believe in it even if it hasn't been confirmed and even been disproved. This is the Larry Stylinson page and I think that on this page people should get an idea of their "relationship" whether it is real or not. Lastly, I am not "Educating people on why Larry is real" I'm trying to explain Larrie's beliefs and why Larries believe that. Its similar to a page on chrisitanty explaining what Christians believe and why they believe it even if scientists have disproved it. It's out of respect and the need to explain everyone's beliefs (and it could be cautionary if the evidence doesn't stack up). I think we should keep it on the Larry Stylinson page with a disclaimer like: "these are some instances/reasons larries tend to say they believe in Larry" or "although Larry has been denied by Louis, Larries usually include these moments in videos." Emphasize that Larry has been denied by the people involved like the Christian story of creation has been proved wrong by Scientists but include it anyways. And I want to clarify that I am not saying Larry Stylinson is in anyway a religion I'm using christianity like a metaphor. Basically my point is that we should at least have some representation of why on this page then say like "for more information go to Larry is Real." StringQuartets&ChiaPets (talk) 01:46, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
- In that case, do not edit or remove instances you believe are "anti-Larry bias" when they are actually just stating factual information that happens to refute Larry, such as "Louis Tomlinson has a child" or "both Harry and Louis have denounced Larry Stylinson," etc. If you look at the page on Christianity on Wikipedia [1], it does not state those beliefs *as facts* and, in fact, goes out of its way NOT to state that the beliefs of Christians are fact, because they are simply one group's beliefs and many HAVE been disproven. They are the beliefs of one group of people, period. Larry Stylinson is the belief of one group of people, and nothing more than that, period. If you want anyone to take Larry, or this page, seriously, you need to word it in a way that does not state Larries' beliefs as fact (a tweet is not romantic in itself, Larries interpret a tweet romantically) and then give an explanation for why Larries believe it (Larries interpret the tweet romantically because it provided fanservice to the ship, Larries believe a tweet is romantic because neither Harry nor Louis has specifically denounced or deleted that tweet, etc.) Just rambling a giant conspiracy theory onto a page does nothing to make Larry look better, or more realistic, as a theory.Ulanbataar (talk) 02:31, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
- I typed an answer then accidentally shut the tab so im doing this again haha. This was my first page editing and I realize that I was not as thorough for bias checking as I should have been. I acknowledge that I made some mistakes on my first try. However, the only thing that I'm trying to communicate is that the section was for "what larries take as evidence" not what everyone thinks about specific moments. There should have been a section underneath for refuting the "evidence" and providing counter arguments such as denouncements by both parties who would have been involved in Larry and their girlfriends. I am not trying to make Larry look better or more realistic. My goal was to state what Larries take as evidence and why. On a page about Larry Stylinson I thought that there should have been a place for why, not just what it is. Anyways as previously stated this was pretty much the first thing I've ever edited so I appreciate your help and feedback. It was really nice of you to take time out of your day to help me :D. StringQuartets&ChiaPets (talk) 02:58, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
- In that case, do not edit or remove instances you believe are "anti-Larry bias" when they are actually just stating factual information that happens to refute Larry, such as "Louis Tomlinson has a child" or "both Harry and Louis have denounced Larry Stylinson," etc. If you look at the page on Christianity on Wikipedia [1], it does not state those beliefs *as facts* and, in fact, goes out of its way NOT to state that the beliefs of Christians are fact, because they are simply one group's beliefs and many HAVE been disproven. They are the beliefs of one group of people, period. Larry Stylinson is the belief of one group of people, and nothing more than that, period. If you want anyone to take Larry, or this page, seriously, you need to word it in a way that does not state Larries' beliefs as fact (a tweet is not romantic in itself, Larries interpret a tweet romantically) and then give an explanation for why Larries believe it (Larries interpret the tweet romantically because it provided fanservice to the ship, Larries believe a tweet is romantic because neither Harry nor Louis has specifically denounced or deleted that tweet, etc.) Just rambling a giant conspiracy theory onto a page does nothing to make Larry look better, or more realistic, as a theory.Ulanbataar (talk) 02:31, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
- It is damaging in that it perpetuates conspiracy theories like the idea of "powerful Jews own the media and are corrupt" (why Larries hate the Azoffs, Ben Winston, etc), and encourages cultlike behaviors and beliefs that spill outside of fandom and into the real world, like when Larries send death threats to Briana and Freddie, an actual human child. There is no "two sides to pick which to believe" when one has been proven to be false. That's like saying people should get to pick whether they think gravity is holding things down to the earth or whether we're all tied down by invisible strings marionetted by an ogre. "Educating people on why Larrie is real" is just spreading a conspiracy theory with no basis in fact that both Harry and Louis have said is why they're literally not even friends anymore.Ulanbataar (talk) 23:43, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- Larries are a part of this fandom as well and we should explain the beliefs of Larries so that people are able to pick out a side once they have seen both. Also honestly Larry isn't that damaging. Like so what if some people think that two members of a boyband from over 5 years ago are in a relationship. It literally hurts no one it's no different than people thinking that like, for example, Louis and Danielle are secretly together. "Fair and balanced" should mean that both sides are presented with what they believe and people are able to make their own decisions. Unless Louis and Harry are actively checking the "Larry is Real" section which would be their own decision it would not harm anyone. I say add like, "some larries believe that.." as a disclaimer before things without evidence but leave videos as they are because people should be able draw their own conclusions and get educated on what they are arguing for or against. Lastly comparing a group of essentially shippers in a fandom to QAnon is a bit rude and sort of offensive so you might not want to do that in the future. StringQuartets&ChiaPets (talk) 22:47, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think this should have its own section, as Larry Is Real is a damaging and demonstrably false conspiracy theory that both Harry and Louis have denied and said harmed their relationships with each other and their significant others. "Fair and balanced" shouldn't mean giving equal credence to blatantly misleading and false information just so that both sides have equal page space. It would be like devoting an equal amount of time to QAnon as actual news and acting like both are valid.Ulanbataar (talk) 22:02, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
Do the new additions ("Why Larries Believe Harry Styles and Louis Tomlinson aren't straight" , "Why Larries Believe in Larry Stylinson") belong on the new "Larry is Real" page (where some of the same info already exists)? To avoid this kind of back and forth adding/deleting, could there be a note at the top of this page stating that it is meant for the fandom practice side of things, and anything to do with the actual relationship ("proof" etc.) should go to "Larry is Real?" Greedy dancer (talk) 21:32, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- They aren't really new additions. I accidentally deleted them this morning from the main page and added them back this afternoon. MirandaKane89 (talk) 21:54, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry, didn't mean "the most recent changes" necessarily but changes in the past week - the page was edited after discussion here to create a break-out "Larry is real" page which features the "proof" sections, but now the proof is back on this page AND also appears on the "Larry is real" page. Hence my suggestion that we clarify what each page is for, otherwise we're going to be doing this forever :p Greedy dancer (talk) 22:06, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
Purpose of page & moving sections to Larry Is Real
To avoid coming across as biased, the sections on "Why Larries Believe Harry Styles and Louis Tomlinson aren't straight", "Why Larries Believe in Larry Stylinson", and other unproven/theory-related sections should be moved solely to the Larry Is Real page so that this page, about the fandom activities and prevalence of the ship, can look and behave more like other pages about popular (and even other controversial) ships. "Larrie evidence" *is* an elaborate and multiuser fanwork, of sorts, but activities or quotes by Harry and/or Louis don't really belong on a page about the actions and works of their fans -- and, again, they are all unproven/can be interpreted nonromantically, and putting them on this page biases the page too much to a "Larry Is Real" perspective. If people want to read the evidence for why Larries believe that Larry Is Real, the new page provides a place for that information. I think this page should just be fanlore-typical information about the size, scope, popularity, etc., of the pairing within fandom.Ulanbataar (talk) 12:19, 16 March 2021 (UTC)