Talk:Judaism and Fandom

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Hey, Kass, do you have a link to the "midrash: it's fanfic" essay? I think that should probably be included. And not just because I <3 it. --nextian 23:13, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I believe that essay is currently offline, but I'll do some digging; I may be able to come up with a link to something else that would work in some of the same ways. :-) Kass 23:18, 3 November 2008 (UTC)


Hey, if no one minds, I'm going to grab the Numbers paragraph from "Within fanworks" and stick it in the Numbers article--Sherrold 21:45, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

That works. I might summarize it in one sentence or so and add it to "is X Jewish" as well. -- Liviapenn 21:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Maybe the Numb3rs bit for within in fandom could add some timeframe when relevant fic/discussions happened? I mean, I never notice any controversy in fandom about them being Jewish in canon, but I was never that involved. I think I've seen one early fanfic story in which only one of their parents was Jewish the other Christian, but that's it. But certainly with the last couple of eps any ambiguity is gone now that Don was seen to go to a synagogue again in canon, sought guidance from a rabbi, and talked with Alan about religion in their upbringing?--Ratcreature 22:21, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Re the fandom itself is a quintessentially Jewish enterprise: So, is there some Jewish thing (Sandy betrays her utter ignorance) where you say, "Next year in Jerusalem?" Because there was a joke when I was a neofan of "next year in Lansing" (where MediaWestCon -- once the center of all gen mediafannishness -- was), that maybe should go there.--Sherrold 06:21, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Bwee! Yes -- "Next year in Jerusalem" is something we say at the end of the Passover seder every year. "Next year in Lansing" is a great variation on that theme! Kass 19:08, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Re: Josh Lyman and Toby Ziegler. There's not really any question in the fandom as to their Judaism. They're both source text said to be Jews on multiple occasions, and both define themselves as such. There is (from time to time) very minor wank about the fact that Bradley Whitford (Josh Lyman) is IRL a Quaker. In fact, one of the appealing recurring character traits is that Toby Ziegler (goes to Temple, might be Conservative) frequently plays Identity Politics with Josh Lyman (evidently a non-believer who still identifies culturally, grandfather was a survivor). Yet the two have a strong bond as the only Jews in the administration. So neither of them qualifies as 'is X Jewish'. They're both Jews.--Skywaterblue 05:57, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

It's been ages since I watched any WW and then not the whole series, so I don't remember but was their Jewishness introduced explicitly right away, or were there first things like some ambiguous marker? If the latter the "an are they Jewish?" kerfuffle could have happened before canon settled it, and someone listed them b/c of that. That's for example the case with the Numb3rs discussion. --RatCreature 08:33, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
The very first episode established the fact that both Toby and Josh are Jewish. The thoroughly objectionable ultra-hardline Christian, Mary Marsh, made a crack about people from New York. Toby picked her up on it, and said to Josh something to the effect of, "She's talking about you and me when she says that: she means Jews." -- Greer Watson 14:55, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Well, if there really was no discussion of their jewishness in fandom I'd say remove them from the list.--RatCreature 15:16, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
I wouldn't know. I'm sure there must be fic, but discussion is another matter. I've watched the series through to the end several times; but I'm hardly in the fandom—just sample the archive now and then. You'd need an aficionado to get the details. -- Greer Watson 15:31, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Weird, I thought when I watchlisted this it would alert me for updates. Good thing I checked back. There's no debate in the fandom about their Jewishness - as Greer says, it's established in the pilot episode. I've been active in this fandom since the beginning. I just wanted to get a general consensus before I deleted it.--Skywaterblue 21:55, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Added Magneto to 'is X Jewish', as he is one of the characters who most fits the trope. I'd like to add West Wing back into the article somewhere - maybe under Sports Night, as the two shows share a creator. I'll have to think of a good example but off the top of my head: Toby and Josh's ongoing debate over which is the better Jew, or the internal fandom debate over Toby's denomination?

Someone should add the Rugrats holiday episodes. Also, the OC, but I didn't watch it regularly.--Skywaterblue 22:20, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Should Worf (and his adopted parents) be added to the 'is X Jewish' list? The fact that both the Rozhenkos were played by actors who were not just Jewish, but were among the biggest names in Yiddish theater, many people believe this was the implication. --Sari (talk) 01:06, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I think that this interesting information should be on the Worf page (can't believe there isn't one yet!) and on Judaism and Fandom, too. BTW, welcome to Fanlore, Sari! --MPH (talk) 01:50, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
Finally got around to adding that to the page. (Also, though I should have said it a while back, thank you for the warm welcome!) --Sari (talk) 06:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC)