Talk:Jason Todd

Infobox image

The current infobox image is lovely, but imo ideally the infobox image would contain depictions of Jason Todd both as Robin and as Red Hood, because the two different roles and the contrast between them is a major subject in the fandom for this character. See the Stephanie Brown page that depicts her major identities, all of which are are relevant to the fandom. This isn't an urgent matter, but possibly something to keep in mind for future revisions. —PictoChatCyberBully (talk) 00:19, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

For the PPOV flag

some responses:

[thequiver]
[...]Jason Todd’s narrative is inherently one about trauma changing someone and then dealing with those around them asking why they can’t be like they were before, or why they can’t show their trauma in a different way. And I’ve been thinking a lot this morning about how the way that the comics and fandom keep focusing Jason’s trauma around how it affects others is pushing the concept and trend where trauma is only consumable when it’s made soft and sad and easy to comfort. People don’t want to see trauma that inspires anger, or trauma that doesn’t come packaged in a neat little box that’s perfect for hurt/comfort. They want traumatized individuals to “move on” by going back to who they were before instead of taking their trauma in stride and changing with their circumstances.

And that’s why I’m so opposed to Jason rejoining the Batfamily- because to do so means going backwards and becoming who they thought he was and who they think he should be rather than moving forward as part of his complete story.

[cissy-queen-jones]
Not to reiterate the point again, but the tragedy of Jason dying is not that he came back different. That’s the tragedy according to everyone else’s opinion. Jason’s personal tragedy is is that no one missed him as far as he can tell. Yes Jason was traumatized by his death but the reason he’s angry and cynical is because how everyone seems to have moved on from his death really quickly and his life doesn’t seem to have mattered to everyone.

[littledead-ridinghood]
I totally feel Jason turning away from killing because he wants to rejoin the “bat family” could be plausible IF Bruce(and the others) ever took the time to understand what Jason had went through throughout his entire life and made an effort to listen to why he sees the world as he does. But because, in UtRH, Bruce went in as Batman rather than as Jason’s father, Jason felt like he wasn’t being listened too and was being written off as unimportant & forgettable which evoked that feeling of “*you didn’t care that I died. You never cared about me to begin with. You just saw me as an easy-to-manipulate stepping stone to reach your end goal”. Jay’s always meant with exasperation and the works which would only enhance those feelings* making all of those emotions (and subsequently responses) worse

will try my best to scrape the tumblr + reddit + FFA for more but I'm sleepy now so maybe another day -- Aerlko (talk) 06:27, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Re Cleaning up the Canon section

First, thank you PictoChatCyberBully so much for your work on this article. I had a discussion with other Fanlore peeps on Fanlore discord about cleaning up the Canon part of this article, and we've come to the agreement that the section of Other notable appearances could be safely removed, since it's more of fandom wiki than necesscary information for Fanlore. At the moment, the there is a lot of information in the Canon section, but since Jason is a comic character, it's hard to know what to keep and what to cut. What's your thought on this?

On another note, thank you Kingstoken so much for your work on streamlining and cleaning up the Canon section 🌸 -- Aerlko (talk) 03:11, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

If you guys think it's for the best, then I defer to your judgment. But I feel pretty confident in saying that the vast majority of the Jason Todd fans—just like the fan following for Batman and pretty much any other notable comic character—have hardly touched a comic book, and are exponentially more familiar with the character through adaptations. Arkham Knight, WFA, and Injustice are particularly influential to the fandom. If anything, the DCAU section probably ought to go.

Ditto—thanks for your work. —PictoChatCyberBully (talk)

Aww I think I'm that Jason comic fan. Or Under the Red Hood fan, Jensen!Jason just got it for me haha. I actually know of Arkham Knight but never play it myself, as I rarely ever play comic games whatsoever, same for Injustice. The only thing I'd like and may urge myself to try Arkham Knight is possibly the suit, cat ear Jason is worth it for me. Are you in the Fanlore discord? We can discuss thing further there. I'm polishing this article so we can feature it, so any suggestion is better than no suggestion for me -- Aerlko (talk) 05:43, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Trying to restructure the canon section a bit now. I listed the other notable adaptations in bullet point format just because I myself was too lazy to write out blurbs for all of them at the time—but I do believe a complete article would mention them. If I were to rank the popularity and influence of various media in the Jason Todd fandom, then it'd probably be something like: Under the Red Hood (animated movie) > Arkham Knight (yes, the sad catboy energy) > Injustice 2 > WFA > Titans (TV series) > Gotham Knights (game) > comics > Young Justice (cartoon) > DCAU and other alternate universes. So I'd say a lot of these adaptations are just as worth mentioning as the source comics, and the article would be incomplete without acknowledging these stories fully as the canon to which the majority of fans are responding.

Having some issues logging into Discord, would prefer not to deal with that hurdle right now. —PictoChatCyberBully (talk) 00:11, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

No worries PictoChatCyberBully, and thank you so much for your work on revamping the canon section. It's totally okay if you prefer to not use discord haha, talk page works for me too. Also, just a quick note but I nominated this article for Fanlore Featured Article, if it interests you please go vote for it here🌻, other Fanlore folks might leave suggestion to better improve the article too. I am pondering on how to edit the intro right now, but life has been hectic so can't promise anything solid soon -- Aerlko (talk) 21:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

I do mean to vote for the Featured Article, but I'd like to wait for three affirmative votes before I cast the fourth and final one. I've tossed so much material on this article, I feel like I'd be pushing our own nepo baby if I were to jump in and vote too early, ya know? 🙈

You've done a great job fixing up this Jason Todd page into something organized and comprehensible. I threw a big mess on here just to see how big I could build up this snowball, without any higher ambition, but you and Kingstoken et al actually fixed it all up into something that doesn't hurt to look at. This page seems ready to be featured as is; I'd say it's more comprehensive and at least as organized compared to the Batfamily page, which did get featured... but there currently seems to be a pretty big group of featured article nominations competing for priority, so approval might be slow. —PictoChatCyberBully (talk) 07:45, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Re streamlining quotes

First, thank you so much for finding and adding the two quotes in the 1988 phone poll section PictoChatCyberBully. I saw you removed the replies section in one of the quotes I added into the Batfamily reconciliation focus section though, is there any specific reasons for that?

I had concerns regarding the PPOV issues of this article when I started cleaning up and digging for different POVs, that's why I wanted to add replies thread and different discussions in various quotes that I referenced in this article haha. It's also one of my personal preferences to format different quotes in either NQuote or Quotation templates, depending on the content. There are lots of debates and discussions surrounded Jason, and I'm worried that my perspective as a die-hard Jason fan can skew with my perspective of a Fanlore editor, so I'm very open to feedback on how to improve this article as best as possible. -- Aerlko (talk) 07:55, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for all your help.

The first part of that quote discussed a common viewpoint about Jason—i.e. Jason goes through his trauma in a way that isn't sanitized or packaged like other portrayals of trauma. This seems like a pretty complete idea—someone reading this article could knos nothing about Jason, but this quote explains that this character experiences and expresses trauma in a unique way that resonates with fans. So that quote seems relevant to an article covering general points about the fandom for this character.

Then the next additions—"Jason’s personal tragedy is is that no one missed him as far as he can tell" and "because, in UtRH, Bruce went in as Batman rather than as Jason’s father, Jason felt like he wasn’t being listened to" seem like fragments of a bigger conversation, which needs more context and explanation. People who read this article may be unfamiliar with the story of UtRH, and so they wouldn't understand what these quotes are discussing.

Also the additional replies seem like more specific, niche, personal interpretations of the character's feelings and motivations. These are subjective claims and extrapolations that might be disputed by the bigger part of the fandom. The first quote more describes that many fans share similar feelings about the story, without making a claim about what the story is and how it ought to be interpreted.

So that was my line of reasoning in deciding that the first quote is more relevant and helpful to this article, while the responses are less so. —PictoChatCyberBully (talk) 00:19, 26 September 2023 (UTC)