The Great Tail Debate

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no tail here, from Cyber Dreams: Tappings from the BBTV Pipes #3 (2002), artist is Lynn Wright

The Great Tail Debate is the discussion among Beauty and the Beast (TV) fans concerning whether Vincent has a tail or not.

One ferocious 1989-1990 debate originated in Nanci Folsom Casad's zine, Intertwined. Flyers for that series use the term "The Great Tale Debate."

For a similar topic, this one focused on Vincent's retractable penis, see Love Bade Me Welcome.

For more discussion on Vincent's beast qualities, see Vincent: The Beast.

Tail Fanworks

Fiction

• Intertwined
• Tales from the Litterbox (satire, humor)

Fanworks Portraying Vincent's Tail

• 

  from Intertwined #4, Pat Farrar: "He dreamed dreams that included me."

• 

  from Intertwined #4, Pat Farrar, poem about the tail called "Our Favorite Game"

• 

  from Intertwined #4, Pat Farrar, illo accompanying "Our Favorite Game"

• 

  from Intertwined #5, Jackie Kapke

Fan Discussion Topics

Fans had a lot to say about Vincent's tail:

• if he had one, where does he hide it in his clothes?
• a tail is humiliating for the actor who portrayed him
• children make fun of differences and that means young Vincent was teased
• a tail reduces Vincent to a beast and that's not okay
• the tail (and Vincent's purring, and when stressed, pooping behind a rock) was humiliating
• the tail was funny
• the author should be able to write what they want, including Vincent with a tail
• the tail was a natural extrapolation of Vincent's "otherness"

Fan Comments

1988

The question of whether Vincent and Catherine can consummate their love? As a sensual romantic, I refuse to believe that consummation is not possible. An inability to consummate their love, to satisfy what is clearly a deep and powerful passion, would be too emotionally painful to contemplate or to continue. Whatever the other obstacles to their union, the hope that they may, one day, be truly joined must be kept above. Nor can I see any physical impediment to their union. Vincent's appearance is more human than beast. He has claws and his hands are covered in fur, but he does have hands, not paws. He wears a long "mane" of hair more to hide his face outside the tunnels than from any genetic necessity. His face is lionlike but still recognizably human. His neck is smooth and hairless, evidence that he is not totally covered in fur. He does not walk on all fours but stands upright. He has no tail (Yes, I have looked!). He speaks, he thinks, he dreams, he loves. Clearly, he is a man with some characteristics of a lion and not the reverse.

While Vincent was dancing [in the episode "Dead of Winter"], it was the first time I remember seeing him from the back, without a cape, so it's clear he doesn't have a tail.

1990

Your story is wonderful! The conversations are so much 'in character' that I can almost hear the words in the right voices. And a most satisfying storyline--much more full of romance and feeling than some of the shows themselves ... I doubt the show is ready to show us whether or not there is a tail...though I liked to picture him as I read your description.

Vincent's tail was an awful shock to me, and one thing I cannot agree with. Rough tongue and purring I would readily accept; but Vincent is 100% man with some extra characteristics of the feline nature. We've seen him dancing and he wears such tight trousers that there is no where he could hide such an appendage! Sorry -- no tail please!

I didn't get offended by the tail. I just never thought of it and really found it amusing. Just think how that tail could be used ...!

I admit to having a problem with the tail, but I just don't dwell on that part.

'Intertwined' was very enjoyable. The idea of Vincent having a tail is fascinating if not very practical. (After all, we've seen him from the back without his cloak; where would he have put a tail?) It was lovely to have him making love to Catherine in his sleep -- just too bad that he had to wake up!

I must admit I was not too crazy about the tail, but as Ron Koslow himself said this weekend at VQT, "He's a beast."

One of the most intriguing ideas you presented was the idea of Vincent's tail. (I'll bet you knew I was going to say that!) When I read it at first I was sure you'd made a typo. Then I reread it and smiled. When that great bed scene came up and Cathy is, to say the least, startled, I was laughing, especially when she looks for it under his nightshirt. Who wouldn't? I also enjoyed Father's 'house call.' (I'm not going to say a word about his bedside manner...) And Mouse's trick on Vincent was fun. The characters came to life beautifully. The stories were sweet and well thought-out.

I particularly liked the way you picture Vincent as feline, or at least non-human. Most of the fanwriting I've seen seems more or less assume Vincent is human with a differently shaped head face and claws, and a few superhuman attributes... but they don't want to put up any more barriers than there already are between him and Catherine and their "happy life', and so beneath his skin Vincent is 100% human. There are some very good stories written that way, but I liked meeting a different Vincent in your writing. It makes sense that Vincent's oddities are more than skin deep.

I had no difficulty at all accepting Vincent's extra appendage. He is different physically, mentally, emotionally, and biochemically. 50 why should the presence of a mere tail inspire controversy? Bravo for having Devin whisk Vincent away for some fresh air and sunshine, when he had lost the will to live. I felt this part of the story was very effective. I also liked the part about Vincent's regressing, and Catherine's continuing visits to the Tunnels even after he had no wish to see her. Thank you very much for your very fine stories. I hope that you choose to write some more for all of us B&B fans.

Vincent with a tail? I think it is distasteful and sort of offensive. Animals have tails. One of people's major objections to the show is what Vincent really is. If he's part animal, then any love relationship between him and Catherine is wrong. So he has to be all human. I'm just not comfortable with it.

The 'furry appendage'--I didn't think it was appropriate. It didn't add anything to the story and having seen Vincent in those sleek slacks, he could never hide it!

Good story and well written, but at a certain point my reaction was: 'Excuse me?!' A tail?! I bet I'm not the only one who reacted like that. It's certainly an original idea, and it's funny, but I have very mixed feelings about it and I don't think it's very realistic. No, it does not offend me. I can well imagine Vincent having been born with a tail. Why not, considering the way he looks? And I can even imagine Father feeling that it would be a terrible mutilation to cut it off (though not so easily; after all, what father wants his son to run around with a tail?!) Furthermore, having a tail would prove very embarrassing for a little boy once he notices that no one else has one (more so than fangs and fur, I think), because it would obviously be a source of ridicule (children can be awfully cruel to one another). So, even if he did have a tail once, I believe that at a certain point Father -- or Vincent himself -- would have decided that he'd be better off without it. That would solve quite some problems, save him a lot of embarrassment (you do indicate that he doesn't feel comfortable about it--who would?!) and after all the tail does not serve any purpose, does it? But then it's your story and your imagination, and who am I to say that it can't be? I certainly had a good laugh about it.

That story is BEAUTIFUL! You got me with the tail! My immediate reaction was NO. Then I paused and said, 'Why not?' I like it! That ending was true Ron Koslow! Neat! You caught the characters well. I'm sure that's the way Father would react. And Mouse! Of course he would 'fix it.' He fixes all kinds of of things. And Vincent, being Vincent, would step aside for Catherine's happiness. Not being ready to admit that he is Catherine's happiness. I loved it, Nanci.

You asked what I meant by -cringed- when I first starting reading your new story. Well, I did have difficulty having to picture this wonderful, proud, majestic person reduced to prowling around a cage on all fours, flipping his tail in the air, going behind a rock to go to the bathroom, etc. What I meant was that it's hard to watch someone you care about behaving in a way that he, himself, would find humiliating and embarrassing if he were even aware of the behavior. I think your interpretation of his downward spiral resulting in his reverting back to feline behavior is very justified. It was hard to read, but at the same time it was fascinating to read. It's very obvious you have cats. I think that plays a part in our fascination with this character on some level.

I just received your zine -Intertwined- and I feel compelled to make a few comments. (I'm sure you can guess what is coming.) Please explain why you saw fit to endow Vincent with a tail! You write well--in fact, you write very well. You were very careful in staying faithful to the characters, which only serves to make that appendage all the more glaring. As I said, you are a good writer, but because of the anomaly of it, your readers will tend to dwell on that tail and nothing else. You are doing yourself a disservice in this manner. Everyone I have talked to who have read -Intertwined- have said the same thing. If you had chosen to go off on a tangent, that is, to try an alternate universe approach, it would have been more acceptable. Also, one further point. I have seen - Vincent - on several occasions, in various states of costuming, and I can promise you beyond any shadow of a doubt that he does not have a tail. If Ron Koslow doesn't think he has one, why do you?

I just finished reading Intertwined III. I really enjoyed it. I wish you had put more in about Vincent's questionable appendage. For example, if he has control over it, couldn't he maybe use it to caress Catherine when he is especially happy or content. Talk about sexy!

(Ed.'s note: Wouldn't the anti-tail readers just love that?!)

Between the -furry appendage,- the purring, and the bit about his gripping her neck, I think I know where your thoughts are! Your ideas may offend some fans, but not this one. I have said all along it doesn't matter one iota what Vincent's origins are. The only thing that matters is the love he and his Catherine share. And you show this in a very delicate and beautiful manner. I love your leaving Catherine pregnant with twins, and can't wait to goes ...... Anyway, I for one, like your idea of Vincent with a tail. If it makes Vincent seem a little less human, so what? I've always felt that part of his mystique was the question of what it is that makes him like he is. Besides, who cares what he is, as long as he is. Right?

Of course, mutants, part animals, etc., can have tails, but I don't like to think of that magnificent creature Vincent having one. I wouldn't want him mutilated by having it amputated either. I'm just hard to please. He's so perfect, I wish he were real! Besides, do you really think a 'high born lady' like Catherine would take a lover with a tail?

(Ed. 's note: This 'high born lady' has taken a lover with a muzzled, fanged, furry face with furry, clawed hands and (presumably) a furry body that goes about growling and roaring and shredding and killing!! Why would one little tail bother her?!)

The only part I didn't like was about the tail. I don't believe he has a tail. If he did, that would take away from his human side completely, making him mostly beast, therefore the hope of C&V's dream would be destroyed.

Of course a tail is an extension of the spine. But you are wrong in assuming that having a tail would change the positioning of the tailbone. A tail that does not curve down would obviously be a nuisance and in addition would also be very vulnerable. So, logically, if Vincent did have a tail, his tailbone would also still curve down and inward, and capable of movement or not, he would, unfortunately, find sitting down a very troublesome business. Certainly if he would have to keep that tail tucked away in a pantleg, that would considerably hamper its moveability. Sorry, but those are the simple biological facts. As to the fact that his tail does not serve a purpose, and does not need to serve a purpose, that's true. But when there is something about your body that is 1) pretty embarrassing, 2) very bothersome, and 3)completely unnecessary, you have it removed, right? And contrary to claws, fangs and fur, a tail is quite easy to remove. Still, I agree it is an original idea, and if you insist on picturing him with a tail, that's obviously your good right. But it's not very realistic ... I feel it would be wrong to make the character of Vincent anything less than realistic or to explain him in any other way than the most obvious. He is not a beast with human characteristics (whatever Ron Koslow or even Ron Perlman may say), he is a ~ with some animalistic traits.

(Ed.'s note: But both Rons have said many times that he is a beast with human qualities. They should know - they created him!)

I've just finished III. It's not easy to write this. There are very good parts ... but A TAIL???? Please be serious, it can't be. Look at him. Vincent, the most beautiful man I ever saw, the most human, the most loving man ever ~ and you give him a tail. Where is his humanity? Yes, I think I found out now, in his trousers, because with what I've been reading lately I wonder how you American fans are watching B&B. You guys make him a sex maniac. He jumps in and out of her bed every five pages, sometimes near a rape (have you all been reading the Kamasutra before you wrote your B&B stories?) Otherwise he eats himself sick on chocolate and sweet stuff, why? Of he walks in short jeans with sunglasses! Or he's crawling naked over the floor like some animal! Please, where is the respect for Vincent and Ron Perlman? Just look at them and think what you are doing to them!!! I can't imagine Vincent like you describe him, I'm sorry, I just can't, and I'm not alone in this, I'm sure of that. So forgive me for being so hard on you, but you've asked for opinions. Now let me know when #4 is ready.

I think you have a special series of zines here with a nice feel for the characters, especially our mane man, and with a unique thread (V's tail) that made them just you and that I know I look for when reading

It made me smile to think of Vincent with a tail--what an interesting idea. And I think, like Catherine, I was also wondering just where was that tail! I think your stories were beautiful.

At first I thought, oh my, she's given him a tail! And I was sort off put off by that fact, but then I read the zines and found that you really didn't dwell on the appendage--you worked it into your storyline very well.

I loved the purring. I do not see Vincent as having a tail. That would be taking too much away from any humanness he has. (But these are your tales to tell.)

I thought the story quite interesting, but I must confess I am turned off by the "tail" and other bestial features. Sorry. Anyway I'll let you know if I decide to try again

(Personally, I kind of like the tail.)

I must say I don't like the idea of showing Vincent with a tail! He's a mutant--not an animal!

I'd like to hear about IV. After all, I want to support the only B&B zine I know that features a -furry appendage.

I enjoyed the last two Intertwineds. If possible in Intertwined III, dump the tail. Nothing personal, just in my opinion, Vincent is a man with some lion features, not the other way around. But I must admit at times I thought the tail was amusing. I am enclosing a money order for III.

Regarding your -furry appendage,- I don't understand why anyone would be offended. I thought it was a neat idea, too.

The big shocker was his tail. I still smile as I write it, as I did when I read it. I guess I never thought about him having one before. It just seemed funny ...... About the tail--it still makes me laugh when I think or write about it. I'm not sure if I like it or dislike it. I guess I dislike it because it reminds me of his beastly qualities, and I like to think of him as more human. You really make a person think.

(Ed.'s note: That's the idea.)

I'm so sorry that you felt my comment [about your story] was negative--I never meant it to be inferred as such. I was only asking out of curiosity--far be it for me (or anyone else) to condemn ANYONE for having a creative imagination. This is not to say I disagree with Vincent's tail. I merely found it a curious addition.

To me, Vincent is half man, half beast. That to me is fascinating. I like it when he beasts out, showing the animal in him. And that fact you have him a tail makes him even more animal and so more fascinating.

To me, Vincent is half man, half beast. That to me is fascinating. I like it when he beasts out, showing the animal in him. And that fact you have him a tail makes him even more animal and so more fascinating.

2006

I found fandom and fanzines. On that day, a new world lay before me, ready to be explored. Some of the books/stories were very well done, and others left me wanting to change just about everything I'd read! Vincent with a tail, with a...a... retractable penis, and he shed like a great big cat? What?!