Talk:The Dreamling: A Morpheus/Hob Server

Initial Comments

Hello ☺ First thank you so much TheAllKnowingOwl for creating this informative article! I am not in the server nor in the Dreamling fanspace, but I want to help to freshen the page (grammars, context, citations etc). Is it okay if we discuss things here? Or do you want to discuss issues over the Fanlore discord server? -- Aerlko (talk) 09:45, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Howdy, Aerlko! For future reference, the discord server I'm referencing is indeed spelled as 'The Sadman' lol. I think I'd also mistake it for a typo if I weren't a member ehehe, so thank you for flagging that! Alas, it is an intentional spelling -- TheAllKnowingOwl (talk) 09:57, 12 April 2023 (BST)

Thank you for telling me that! I honestly have no idea -- Aerlko (talk) 01:01, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi, Sevenseconds! I've noticed you removing and changing information in this article that I think is both accurate and important to document. For example, you've changed information (such as the original definition of 'Spicy' as 'extreme kink') to incorrect statements (e.g. identifying the original definition of 'Spicy' as 'kinky content'), and removed factual statements that cast A1 in a negative light in the article. These include removing the number of people who'd be affected by the rules not being updated to reflect the new guidelines, and how both moderators and ex-moderators asked for better guidelines for NSFW content. I've noticed this because I've been updating the page with the citations I didn't have time to add yesterday. I think the original information information is both accurate and important to document, because it's a piece of important fandom history unfolding before our eyes, which I am communicating with dozens of interlocuters to document and represent comprehensively and sensitively. Can you explain why you altered the page in this way? -- TheAllKnowingOwl (talk) 00:04, 13 April 2023

Viable Citations

May or may not be useful, may or may not be added to the article later.

• Server owner's announcement about creating Dreamling discord, courtesy of TheAllKnowingOwl Tumblr link -- Aerlko (talk) 00:03, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Details I'd like to see addressed

• Who came up with the term "Sandblast?"
• What does it actually mean? Does it refer to the deletion of the server, or the activities before that?
• How many moderators were there?
• The suggested alternate server - "under 7% of the size of the Dreamling server" - can that be rephrased to "fewer than 50 members?" (Would that be accurate?)
• The page could really use a brief overview at the top, something that indicated what happened without having to read several thousand words of fandom drama.
• A timeline might be useful, but isn't necessary
• I'd like to know why M1 was asked to repost their fic in the "spicy" channel - what reasons were given for that? (Saying "similar fics were okay in the general areas" does not tell future fans where the mods thought the lines were.) - Elf (talk) 01:09, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Citation policy and anonymity issues

• Fanlore:Citation: Per our citation policy, the direct quotes from private channels need to go. Signposting this here for AllKnowingOwl's information instead of doing it now, as I think this is going to go into the new "PPOV Issues" pipeline, and be part of those edits. (Though perhaps we should just go ahead and remove them, since that whole process may take a while, and I can personally attest to there being a lot of social fallout over this in the fandom.)
• The details given regarding the "anonymized" individuals involved in this situation are more than adequate for just about anyone who was/is in the peanut gallery to identify them. - MomeRath (talk) 03:01, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks MomeRath, I'm going to add an Attention Gardeners flag because I think we need input from multiple editors on this one! I also think we might need to review the page for PPOV. --Auntags (talk) 21:57, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

AttentionGardeners|because = This article is about events occurring in a private Discord server, with quotes and citations from that private space. Names have been anonymized but there's a concern that people are still identifiable. Article may be one-sided and may require edits to comply with Fanlore's PPOV policy

In the "Moderator Demotions" and "Events Preceding the Deletion Announcement" section of the article, it was clear these took place in private mod channels of the server or in direct messages on discord. Due to the privacy policy, these sections should be removed from the article as they contained details of private conversations. --Phyromancer, 5 June 2023‎ (attribution added by Auntags (talk) 15:24, 5 June 2023 (UTC))

Okay, so I had some time this evening and I'll get us started. I think this page should be written as a Discord Server page. This would allow people who are unfamiliar with the community to gain an understanding of what the server looked like. So I'd suggest the following information be included

• Our introduction could be the first paragraph of the Context section that's currently on this page
• Server Rules should be quoted in full if they are available
• A list of channels (and any rules specific to channels) Also I think we can include the second paragraph of the current Context section here too
• Any server events or activities can also be summarized - ie. did server members take part in any specific challenges?

For the remaining sections dealing with the events leading up to deletion and the deletion of the server, there is a lot of detail here which is impossible to verify. I think we need a summary of these events instead of a detailed blow by blow, and this will likely address the PPOV issues. I agree with MomeRath that at the very least the quotes need to be removed and any anonymized references to any server members also need to be removed. I can't think of any other page on Fanlore where fans are referred to in this way; its confusing and possibly constitutes a breach of our citation policy because we're summarizing (as well as quoting) Protected or limited access content on this page.

So, your thoughts? Does anyone have different suggestion on how to address these concerns? --Auntags (talk) 19:04, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

I think "list of channels" is not a good idea, although a list of channel categories might be useful. Many fannish Discords have dozens of channels and I don't think it's worth adding them to most server pages. But listing the groupings/categories would generally be useful, along with any specific channels that are noteworthy. - Elf (talk) 20:32, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Hey y'all! Thanks for signposting these issues, they're not things I would've considered initially as a newbie editor! I have a few responses and ideas for how to resolve them, but I do want to flag that I may not be able to deal with them immediately due to having a very busy schedule for the next few weeks at least (real life is getting very hectic unfortunately). Anyway, here goes:

• I think the best thing for this page (that might resolve some of the other issues) might be, as Elfsaid, to turn this into a Discord Server page. In retrospect, though this event is important to record, I don't want the only thing the server was known for to be its implosion, because it was a lot more than that to so many of us in the fandom at the time.
• Re: information verification. As far as I am aware, I have information that verifies pretty much everything that needs citing here. Sorry if how I've cited things has violated policy? It was my understanding that so long as I used the 'server name + timestamp etc' format that someone explained to me that it would be alright, but I think I might've misinterpreted that... I do agree that the anonymisation system is confusing though! New people came forward with information throughout the initial stages of the editing/citing process, so it's got all in a muddle. I've been intending to come back to it and rewrite the entire anonymisation system with clearer distinctions between (though not identifying) server members, but I simply haven't had the time I'm afraid. If the initial circumstances for writing this article had been better, I would've taken this process much more slowly and carefully, but unfortunately events were unfolding very quickly at the time.
• All channels (as far as I know) were archived by server members (and the relevant ones shared with me), so the rules section can be easily retrieved and referenced.
• Server members did take part in at least one event (I believe a Secret Santa, would it be worth linking to the Ao3 page for that if we mention it?), but I'm not quite sure what would constitute an activity.
• Re: summarising the events. I understand that this article is a bit of a mess as it stands right now lol, but the reason I wanted to explain what happened in as much detail as I did is because this was such a major event for so many of us in the Sandman fandom. It might not be on the same scale as Strikethrough, but it did affect about 700 people, and for a lot of people on that server, this is the first time that many have experienced this kind of implosion. Moreover, it was quite messy, and I think I wanted to create a record almost of how things like this can go wrong, so fans can try to avoid implosions like this in the future. In short: I'm not quite sure how this can be summarised effectively without also removing the nuance and empathetic view towards events. Help?

Again, thank you so much for your thoughts and efforts! Like I said, I am simply swamped at the moment, but I am dedicated to getting this page in order. Looking forward to learning from y'all!! TheAllKnowingOwl) 16:06, 19 April 2023

Hi TheAllKnowingOwl, thanks for your input! I just want to clarify something. Related to the verification issue and summarizing the event - Fanlore has a rule that private content cannot be made public on our site. I believe this is to protect fans who might be talking or creating in a private space and do not want or expect their words or works to be made publicly available. This rule is contained in the citation policy linked above. Discord Servers are considered private spaces because only server members can view the content on the server - they're members only. That means that the detailed information from the server, citations and quotes are all considered to be Protected or limited access content. We cannot include those.

This rule applies to all Discord Servers. It also applies to friendslocked communities/posts on other platforms and any locked fanfic on Ao3. This does make it difficult to document communities that don't have a public presence, but every person in a private community has a reasonable expectation of privacy and we need to respect that. And that's what I meant when I said this page might be in breach of our citation policy. ---Auntags (talk) 23:41, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Resolving Anonymity & PPOV issues

Hi all, I'm starting some work to restructure this page to address the issues raised above. It will as suggested focus on the server rather than its deletion - I've already updated the infobox and intro and I wanted to leave a message here before I move onto the next step.

Since I posted in April, there has been no discussion on this page which would warrant keeping the Discord quotes or references - as a result, I'm going to delete all quotes and anything referencing personal data of members, or references to anonymized server members. Once that's done, I'll pause for feedback! (Or additional edits by other people). Please read the discussion above - information shared on a private server cannot be included/cited in Fanlore articles (without the explicit permission of all members involved). If anyone has any questions, concerns or additional comments, please add them below! --Auntags (talk) 15:45, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Stopping here for a few days - the page still focuses too much on the threatened deletion of the server, and could use additional work. --Auntags (talk) 16:30, 5 June 2023 (UTC)