Talk:Izzy Hands

Querying Recent Edits

Jackal, you just deleted a paragraph about fannish discussions on Izzy's character post season 1. Was this a mistake? If not, can I ask why you removed this detail? --Auntags (talk) 22:12, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Not deleting, just working on an expansion, since the original made it sound like reactions were unified when they notoriously weren't. --Jackal

Thanks for explaining. At Fanlore, we don't remove recollections that we don't personally agree with, and we don't remove dead links. We have a Plural POV policy, which basically means we want to include additional perspectives and experiences. So I'm proposing that the removed content be added back into the page and I've drafted a Fandom section below, which I think includes everything. Would this be agreeable to all editors? Or are there any suggested edits?--Auntags (talk) 20:02, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Izzy is a popular but divisive character within OFMD fandom, particularly after season 1, where he took an antagonist role. Some fans argued that his hostile actions toward the main characters were ultimately well-intentioned, while others viewed his controlling relationship with Blackbeard as abusive. Fans intensely debated whether his actions in the first season should be understood sympathetically, and if not, whether he could, would or should be redeemed for them. There were some who claimed he could not be redeemed for his actions, while others treated him much more sympathetically. A great deal of meta has been written analyzing Izzy's actions, including essays delving into issues of class, see It’s in the accent. It’s ALL in the accent., and Izzy's control of Blackbeard.

In season 2, Izzy's canonical portrayal became more sympathetic and he reconciled with most of the other characters. After being mortally wounded at the end of the season, he apologized to Blackbeard for his previous treatment of him.

Reactions post season-2 were if anything even more divisive than previously. Some fans who had disliked Izzy in season 1 thawed towards him, because of how his and Edward's relationship was characterized and his acceptance into the crew. Although, some in the Izzy fandom were hesitant to accept them because Season 1 Izzy fans had felt mistreated by the wider fandom before Season 2 aired. Others found his more sympathetic portrayal unconvincing or OOC. Conversely, many fans who had viewed Izzy sympathetically in season 1 were critical of the fact that he was portrayed as apologizing to Blackbeard; many of them were also intensely critical of his death, arguing that it was a case of Bury Your Gays.

It's odd to me to pick out two particular meta essays to link in the intro here when there's already a section for links to representative meta at the bottom; the statement "a great deal" is if anything an understatement and a lot could be added there. So I'd personally argue for just moving the meta links down into the bottom section, but I'm not going to argue about it if you'd rather leave them where they are.

I would argue that without citation of examples "There were some who claimed he could not be redeemed for his actions, while others treated him much more sympathetically" is something of a mischaracterization of the fandom debate, since I can recall very few people ever arguing that he couldn't possibly be redeemed, although many predicted or hoped he wouldn't (in fact a pretty common argument on the sympathetic side was that he wouldn't get a redemption arc because he hadn't done anything wrong enough to warrant one); I'd tend to describe it more as a debate over what motivated his actions in the first season and in particular whether they should be understood as well-intentioned or not. Maybe something like "Fans intensely debated whether his actions in the first season should be understood sympathetically, and if not, whether he could, would or should be redeemed for them" - I think that preserves all the same information while also suggesting how much broader the debate was. --Jackal

I think think this paragraph looks good -- Kingstoken (talk) 15:20, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I've added an expand article flag and citation needed flag, and one sentance in bold. Maybe this intro paragraph will encourage someone to create a whole section about how the fandom approached the idea and the reality of Izzy's redemption, because it's a topic where there would be a lot to cover! And I've added in the archived link Cookies found. Thanks Cookies and chaos! --Auntags (talk) 19:08, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Creating Sub-sections for Reactions

I was thinking one way of formatting the fandom reaction to Izzy would be to maybe split it into two sections, like "Reactions to Izzy Post Season 1" and "Reactions to Izzy Post Season 2", or something similar. Large swaths of the fandom that had previously hated Izzy thawed towards him in season 2 (much to the annoyance of the fans who had always loved Izzy) -- Kingstoken (talk) 20:24, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I think there could be a lot of expansion of the reactions; I'll work on that this weekend. "Hatred for Izzy fans" should probably be a wider section on "Fandom controversy" or something like that, since there was also a lot of harassment of people for disliking Izzy.Jackal

Dead link located

Hello, I think I've found the new URL for the dead link that was on this page and is included in the discussion above, for when a final decision is made about the rewording/placement of the url: "Johannes T Evans, Tumblr, April 24th 2022, Tumblr". Archived from the original on 2023-01-07. Cookies and chaos (talk) 12:42, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

New section about Izzy's death

I created a new section "Izzy's Death, Bury Your Gays, and Ableism" to focus on fan reactions and harmful tropes around Izzy's death. I wasn't sure where to put it, so I place it under the Hatred for izzy Hands section -- Kingstoken (talk) 23:54, 25 April 2024 (UTC)