Strange Bedfellows (APA)/Issue 011

From Fanlore
Jump to navigation Jump to search
Strange Bedfellows (APA) · Issue 001 · Issue 002 · Issue 003 · Issue 004 · Issue 005 · Issue 006 · Issue 007 · Issue 008 · Issue 009 · Issue 010 · Issue 011 · Issue 012 · Issue 013 · Issue 014 · Issue 015 · Issue 016 · Issue 017 · Issue 018 · Issue 019

Strange Bedfellows 11 was published in November 1995 and contains about 102 pages.

cover of issue #11

There were 35 members sharing 24 subscriptions.

From the OE

With this issue, Sandy Hereld and [N] have been minaced; our first minac casualties! This is the last issue they will be sent.

Passions seem to have been running high in some recent tribs, and last issue [T] and [L] both felt themselves to be rather under attack. I hope a) that no one is taking disagreement in the apa as a problem (to me, it is more the point— if we all agreed, why converse?); and b) that people will keep things in perspective, and not get either overly angry, or frightened or dismayed at other people's anger. I want this apa to be a place where we can disagree, and have passionate conversations with the courage of our convictions, but I want people to enjoy those conversations. We all have egos, made neither of tissue nor of steel.

Please understand that I will not deliberately delay collation for the convenience of apa members — and that includes myself — who are running late with their tribs; it sets a bad precedent.

[...]

[J D]: your trib is still too stiff with glue to be autofed, which means that it is still being taken down an extra copying generation. Just FYI. [P G] and [M G]: you are on the verge of being minaced without ever contributing. Are you guys playing, or not?

[M] offered a cover for this issue, but I decided not to use it because it wasn't connected with fandom, wouldn't be recognized by readers, and wasn't visually attractive enough (like the Parish cover was) to offset those disadvantages. So this issue's cover is another OE-provided stopgap. (Anyone who really wants apa covers to be fannish is invited to consider it as very a/u Avon/Vila. Tee hee.) I do thank [M] in any case for taking the time to make a suggestion, and invite you al to do the same.

Some Topics Discussed in "Notes from Tomorrow"

  • just enough to avoid "getting a little bomb next to my name," the warning for lack of participation
  • very small amount of fannish comments

Some Topics Discussed in "Strange Tongues"

  • comments on zines at ZebraCon
  • comments about Susan/Talia
  • much about vampires in past fiction, Forever Knight slash, why it appeals to some and not others
  • alien/alien and f/f fiction
  • descriptions of pro book "paperback slash": "Matter of Oaths" by Helen Wright, "Ammonite" by Nicola Griffiths, "Uplink," "Ground Ties," and "Harmonies of the Net" by Jane Fancher, the Wraeththu trilogy, comics by Donna Barr, Alison Bechtel, Roberta Gregory
  • why no Interview with a Vampire zines?
  • June, manga
  • Mary Sue, Jane Austen, pro Trek novels
  • much about Batman/Robin
  • stage personas and rock stars
  • a long essay on hurt/comfort, focus on Erotica and hurting Dorian Red Gloria
  • thoughts on AUs in Eroica, other manga
  • X-Files, slash, a possible sexual relationship between Mulder and Scully, gender roles
  • discussion about Marion Zimmer Bradley's book, "World Wreckers"

Excerpts from "Strange Tongues"

... overall it's not appearance, but behavior and basic personality that I want [in AUs] as the defining characteristics that are transferred to a new setting, to make an a/u story a delightfully recognizable version of its original, despite new histories, and sometimes new names and superficially new appearances for the characters. A/U's containing two characters of familiar appearance who act totally differently than the supposed originals do, annoy me. Or, rather, these stories seem bad to me as A/U's. (I've seen some original stories billed as B/D which without the distracting "Bodie" and "Doyle" names are quite readable on their own merits.) Contrariwise, A/U's in which the characters act totally and exactly the same as in the original also annoy me, since they stick out like sore thumbs in the new setting; the fun is making them fit the new setting, yet remain recognizably the characters they were. Somehow.

On f/f writing and how it doesn't happen, okay, you're right. If there were a need in fans' minds and hearts for f/f stories the way there is for m/m slash, some of them would make it up somehow and more of them would follow up on it, because they had to. And practically nobody does, even if a fair number are willing to talk about the idea or (they say) to read someone else's stories. It just isn't the main kink in this fandom. I won't say, in the face of decades of apathy on the topic, that the more active roles women are starting to have in grade-B genres shows (that is, likely slash sources) will cure this syndrome, but going by my own feelings and some developments lately, those roles and the social changes that made them possible also make f/f pairs more useful, or at least thinkable, as juicy, heroic, epic, dangerous — and sexually charged — characters.

As for whether f/f stories can be sexually charged, in a female readership accustomed to interpreting stories of m/m sex as exciting, I shouldn't think interpreting descriptions of female body responses would be an impossible challenge. The female reader may expect to identify seamlessly with the female character, but this isn't going to work for all the readers of any one thing no matter what it's about. If the story doesn't make it emotionally vivid that the character gets off on whatever's happening (just as it should be clear in m/m stories) that's perhaps a writing problem, if a difficult one. Writing about female sex should be a different way of making an artistic map of territory that's not my own — maybe interestingly closer, but still Other — just as slash does. The readers who want a map exactly like their own territory are going to have to write it themselves, or stick to a very specific niche. How much identification can be incorporated before a piece isn't really art, or is a different art, as photography is different from painting?

A rock star himself may well enjoy the advantages and freedoms of having a public persona that isn't, and isn't meant to be, the private person. Multiple personalities for fun and profit! And, if we're all lucky, for hot sex as well! The difference is, apparently, who's watching: or perhaps who the persona expects to be watching. But is this different, except in size of audience, from the way most people act differently when they're in different social settings?

Refining the notion of media characters to include any who have life of their own in the popular culture hits one nail on the head. Fandom for many fans is clearly based on enjoying the numinous being of choice, whether from the screen, print or the performing arts, although at times fans do seem to be creating interpretations which paradoxically elide or revamp the heroes almost completely. (I'm sure we could all cite some good and bad examples.) Still, the readers are definitely interested in the personalities as well as the sex lives of the characters they've selected. Or created: in some cases I'd say the fan's chosen favorite is made up nearly whole, using the media character's name as a starting point. How this differs from fantasizing a dream lover (or dream identity-figure, or whatever complex purpose it serves), I'm not sure. Maybe that's the point - the act of selecting one's favored numinous being is no more than another, sometimes quicker (sometimes not) way of making up a useful dream lover.

You are far, far too right that some of the published Trek novels have extremely Mary Sue-like heroines, sometimes badly, sometimes merely as a working structure. (As long as "Mary Sue" is used to mean a strongly-drawn heroine, I don't see what's wrong with it. Let us say that Jane Austen's novels are all, in this sense, Mary Sue stories and be done with at the term.) Given that the ST series characters can't change significantly, and so can't be the center of whatever character plot there is, and that most of them are male, it makes sense to introduce a female character to interact with them and have a personal crisis of some kind during the story — which inevitably puts her center-stage with the series heroes, probably (if the author is any good) with a prominent role in the action plot as well. A believable, interesting character makes the most of this structure; one who's even a bit too much of a good thing looks like a bad old "Mary Sue," and a few authors have done it. Something titled Angel [1] is my favorite Awful Example, while Diane Duane's My Enemy, My Ally presents a splendid Romulan ship-captain who has excellent reasons that she impresses the Enterprise personnel.

[...]

Most of the memorable ST pro novels seem modeled on something fans like to do as well — sometimes because it's a fan writing them. The infamous Phoenix books positively breathed K/S, before publishers (and most fans) were looking for it; Barbara Hambley's Ishmael is a crossover with another show in which Mark Lenard appeared, and also has two of those wild-confluence bar scenes in which the alert reader can identify everyone from Princess Leia to Doctor Who.

Further debate about terminology, futile though it may be: I might point out that "slash" is a relatively new term which we define often by pointing to referents; much disagreement still exists among its users as to just what it covers. "Straight," "gay" and "bi" and their longer-winded synonyms have a more stable and considerably larger usage among English-speakers. For what it's worth, you can look them up in a dictionary for a standard, current definition. That's the definition I'm supporting when I object to the notion that two men who love each other sexually aren't "gay" (or "nonstraight" at least) in the objective or denotative sense. Note that I am not talking about their self-definitions, or yours, but how our consensus English defines their actions as seen from the outside, as by the reader. [J C] has pointed out that all of these characters' foibles and fancies are fictional rather than subject to real referents, which adds some complexity here; but how would we describe these characters if they were real people? Their personal delusions of straighthood would look very thin in light of the enthusiastic and regular fucking with a same-sex partner.

There aren't any English-language "Interview" zines that I know of, and I'd guess the movie, luscious as it was, doesn't stand apart from the book(s) enough inspire much fanfic here on its own — single movies usually don't, after all. And print-based fandoms have a very different approach to fanfic, even when there is no proprietary author looming over everyone's shoulder.

Japan, ever on the cutting edge of baroquerie, has introduced a genre of original-story gay-relationship-relationship fiction, about male/male couples in love and in very "romantic" (or at least very emotionally wrenching) sexual situations. This is now in professional manga and anime, and is most often called June (pronounced ju-neh) after the first magazine that succeeded in making it pay. Various other terms exist for derivative-fiction slash, or for slash-like writing and manga regardless of origin. It may be important, one correspondent of mine suggests, that manga as a format has to provide pictures of the guys. The visual lust factor seems to be a big deal for some fans, and that's present in manga whether it's a professional or a fan product. It may also be easier to believe a picture as a self-sufficient fiction than a sentence; maybe pictures circumvent many of the how-good-is-it criteria applied to written fiction. Is this part of the appeal of fan art in Western fandom? I couldn't say for sure, since so much of it doesn't appeal at all to me, but it certainly sells. The Japanese slash-like genres are targeted at girls and women as far as I'm told, though perhaps there's some gay interest as well. In other words, yeah, June (or yaoi or shonen ai) is slash of some sort, rather than gay porn. I doubt if female/female stories in the hothouse-flamboyant June style are unthinkable, exactly, except insofar as female and male roles are always kept separate. Even more so than in the West, a genre based on a male/male paradigm doesn't transfer to women as a group. F/f stories would have to have their own genre, and for all I know some of the Japanese "ladies" manga do it... but I haven't seen a thing about it.

Would you say the resistance to alien/alien couplings as high-profile erotica parallels the resistance to f/f couplings? Perhaps a pairing of two beings from the non-dominant social group lacks some validity — some common denominator appeal of sexual interest. This doesn't explain the fascination of lesbian depictions for men, nor the degree to which slash functions as eroticization of "other" for women. (If it does. Maybe it's more a case of expressing the unrecognized but desired self.) And I'd agree that two alien characters could well provide at least as good a story as two humans, but not as cut-and-dried a genre exercise. The writing about them would have to be better than routine; you'd have to actually create the aliens to whatever extent you want them to be real to the reader, instead of relying on preexisting media images. Hmm — I'm now describing original fiction, hopefully with a strong "fannish" quality if it's going to be like (other) slash.

Something else I was hoping to find at Z-con was more information on Forever Knight slash, still out of curiosity over how and why it can work for some people, since the whole notion seems improbable to me for the characters I've seen in the show. No one I talked to had any strong recommendations on the subject, though I ran into a mild discussion on whether vampires should have sex in the conventional sense. I find that I don't have an opinion here, merely a lot of background. To wit: The exotic vampire love/death connection worked as automatically hetero only in eras when m/f sexuality was a taboo subject, that is, when there was a barrier to many m/f sexual or courtship relationships. When straight romance became its own justification, the vampiric relationship had to suggest some other, more taboo, liaison. Classic vampire lore has the vampire as an immensely sexual, sensuous icon — but never in terms of genital sex, always transferring the eroticism to orality and blood. As the first heyday of vampires as titillating horror figures was at the height of Victorianism, this serves the purpose of not obviously violating current taboos about upper-class (or literate-class) sex, while covertly violating everything in sight, including religious taboos which were no longer absolute (in literature) but provided a nice frisson of thrilling wickedness.

[...]

Maybe that's where Nick Knight is stranded: in an ambiguous position where (genital) sex isn't necessarily impossible, but isn't important enough to define, compared to the preoccupation he has with mortality, morality, having to drink blood, not wanting to drink blood, LaCroix, avoiding sunlight...

All of this postulates "sex" mostly as requiring conventional physiological responses, or to put it another way, an erect cock. The notion that sexual activity doesn't require one is not usually addressed in Victorian or much modern vampire lit (though Yarbro does hint at it), being also irrelevant to the attractions and symbolism of vampire characters. Sex simply as human sex isn't what it's about; sex as sin or transgression of boundaries is the ticket. As far as non-penetrative sex is defined as variant, odd or bad, it can be tied with vampire depictions as a way of reinforcing the "sin" or "perversion" themes, but when it's ordinary (as, at long last, much of it is these days), it's no more relevant to vampires than traditional sex.

The Susan/Talia pairing is going to be explored sooner or later by fans, I think, if only because they started off with an obvious (but not personal) animosity, the very stuff of romance first chapters and meet-cute movie sequences. One reason fans are so high on the show — when they are - is that this kind of relationship-building is actually being done between character pairs of all kinds, including some who are unlikely to ever be romantic or sexual couples. At least Ivanova is the same species as Winters (whether she wants to be or not). I suspect it's being presented in a rather farcical, high-profile style to contrast with the more serious themes and perhaps more serious relationship Sheridan and Delenn do have, whether they get around to sex or not. If I'm right, for dramatic purposes Ivanova and Winters are the diversion and not the main event, which annoys me on some abstract level. (Okay, you can have a lesbian sub-plot now, but you can't have a lesbian main theme.) Still, as far as it goes, it's being treated as serious to the characters involved.

Have been to Z-con and back. It was a very nice time, although since I've stopped collecting B/D, about half the zines are totally irrelevant. Never mind, everyone else was having fun grabbing up the likes of D-Notice, Nudge Nudge Wink Wink, Bene Dicktum: Naughties and Crosses, (oh, all right, it's Bene Dictum; Naughts and Crosses, really, but only because [N] has a lot of class), not to mention whatever S/H fans are reading these days. There was a Garak/Bashir zine from DVS, which had avowed TNG-haters sneaking hours of reading under the table. Having read other of DVS' zines, I can believe it's her writing and not a resurgence of TNG interest. Another unexpected piece was a Hard Target (with crossovers) zine which also promises to be good writing, the interest for me being that one of the stories featured an Eroica crossover.

Managed to find copies of X-Rated X-Files in someone's used stack, which turned out mixed, but intermittently fun. The overall tone seems better than average for PWP writing by the end of issue #2. (#1 has a higher proportion of routine scenarios and inexplicably romantic characterizations.) I also scored a copy of the B5 smut zine — the one Bill Hupe is selling — featuring several different pairings (none m/m, which disappointed one reader I heard from) some decent scraps of characterization, and a lot of sex that was anatomically correct, at least. The unimaginative but accurate title is Babylon 5: A Selection of Short Stories. It started with Susan/Talia, that being the most obvious same-sex pairing the show has presented, but it went on largely with Delenn, whose fascination with and transformation into things human seems to have fired the imagination of at least one writer. There was one Delenn/Sinclair, which seemed odd, since it's Delenn and Sheridan who are striking muted but perceptible sparks all over the latter half of second season; and some Delenn/Talia. I don't always like what the writer(s) (there might be one or several) do, but she or they have a reasonable ear for the character "voices."

Tentative conclusions upon absorbing one B5 and two XF smut zines: fans can write reasonably interesting m/f and f/f sex despite there being, necessarily, a woman or two in the story. (I'm sure the high incidence of cunnilingus is significant of something, though perhaps only that it's women writing the stuff.) The number of stories based on good characterization, however, is no better, but perhaps no worse, than in slash. This is a very small sample, of course, but I'd estimate the proportion of stupid-but-sexy stories to sexy-well-characterized stories is about the same as in slash overall. The difference is that a stupid-but-sexy m/f story has Scully (or Delenn) acting like Jeannie in I Dream of Jeannie, while a stupid slash story has Doyle acting like Jeannie with a Cockney accent. The latter, for various reasons, is more often overlooked as grossly unlikely.

I find myself revving up for a rant that starts with the observation that if a fan finds slash unlikely in B7 because the characters don't love and trust each other, does that mean she doesn't see any kind of sex as likely among the characters? If heterosex is possible in the absence of love and trust but homosex is not, the former becomes some kind of can't-help-yourself biological imperative even in the absence of any likely baby-raising facilities. And while this is a prevalent myth in some quarters, I resist it as more self-serving than necessary truth. On the other hand, in the wake of debates over defining slash and its relationship to gay facts and fiction, perhaps it's slash sex that can't occur in the absence of love and trust. The implication then would be that no heterosex could possibly involve that level of emotion at all, something I also resist as a principle, however often social pressure mandates that hetero sexual relationships omit the elements that make slash what it is.

Some Topics Discussed in "Hide Your Men, Women, and Children!"

Excerpts from "Hide Your Men, Women, and Children!"

What is slash? To me, it is a subversion of copyrighted/common property material reworked to fit fan-fantasies and involving erotically charged male/male relationships. That is the basic definition for me. Other stories are adult or gen story. Let those who care for them give them better names. I said "erotically charged" not "erotic". I don't know to express it better. You might not be on sexual heat each time you see your couple(s) on screen, but suddenly, the way one man touches the other's shoulder, in a certain way you had not noticed before, sends a thrill right through you. The diversity of slash definitions stems from our own different arousal buttons We do not all like the same type of relationships or sexual trimmings. The unity of slash stems from our secure knowledge that to other slash fen, the relationship itself (with or without sex shown) is erotically charged - even if these fan's own magic couples or magic stories do nothing for us. It ensures our readiness to accept and encourage their arousal. It is pleasure to give this arousal we share to other fen by writing for them or sharing zines and drawings. Slash definitions may differ, but they leave enough common ground to create a genre. Maybe two definitions don't intersect, but if they are relevant, you will find a lot of other fan's definitions that will link the two together.

Some Topics Discussed in "Menage a Deux by C J"

Excerpts from "Menage a Deux by C J"

I can hardly help but notice that the issues faced by the male characters in these [Georgette Heyer] novels bear a distinct resemblance to issues faced by many female readers. So, I am led to wonder, what does it mean to take a male point of view when the point of view taken is so overlaid with female/feminist concerns? The novels with the initially ineffectual male characters tend to have female love- interests who are young and silly and generally need to be taken care of. Most of the women I know who read Heyer are not going to be very appreciative of their charms. The male character is the only character with whom the majority of readers will have anything in even remotely in common.

Everyone who made it to Zebra Con: It was great getting to spend time with you. I had a wonderful weekend. I wish we could do it all more often. A special thanks to [J] for not letting inertia overwhelm me and actually giving me a much needed kick to get there. [M F G] — I would say life sucks, but you might take it as a positive comment (who? where? can I watch?) None the less, I am truly sorry that life intruded in such untimely and frustrating ways. You were missed.

Some Topics Discussed in "Vice Files"

Excerpts from "Vice Files"

Catalyst - Talia/Ivanova isn't a problem for me, but the story bugged me for the same reasons you mentioned in points 2 & 3. I'd prefer to see Garibaldi/Sinclair more than Garibaldi/Franklin, personally. Franklin is really tough for me to warm up to ~ but then again, he's a doctor... Garibaldi/Lou Welch (I really miss him...), too ~ that would work.

Talia and Ivanova do sleep together (literally) and JMS said the implication was definitely that they also had sex. But, it's not blatantly obvious (a complaint of some of the more out fans ...), and won't be a continuing relationship since Talia is now one of Them.

But, JMS said recently, "I didn't show a kiss because, in my experience, it's easier on all around if one steps into the shallow end of the pool first, and walk into the deep end rather than diving in and splashing everybody in the process." In the debates and comments I have read, it seems there is someone else who is a queer character, and that the outing may happen sometime this (third) or next season... I'm still hoping it's Garibaldi.

[...]

Is Paramount trying the one-upmanship game with B5 to try to buy their queer audience? Are they trying to get the viewers via sensationalism? Or, are they going to wimp out too?

Thank you also for sharing the latest crap Paramount has been pulling. Yes, I understand they need to protect their copyrights, but they're being right bastards about it!

[...]

Paramount is so full of bull. "... costing it money by using its intellectual property without paying for this use." How many books, novels, card sets, card games, action figures, models, t-shirts, mugs, plates, etc. are they selling? And fan clubs are costing them money? Maybe because the clubs and zines are providing what the fans really want, instead of the (not-so-cheap) mass-produced trash that they're selling? Scum-sucking bottom-dwellers.

[...]

I know someone who has said she'd only charges fans a $1.00 incensing fee to write stories in her universe - it protects her copyright, and doesn't ruin the fans' fun or gouge them out of thousands of dollars for licensing.

Okay, folks, my entire mind has been taken over by a Babylon 5 novella, so I haven't really read the APA, I haven't done my usual cover to cover comments, and I'm not gonna, either. So there.

Some Topics Discussed in "Yamibutoh"

  • slash zines in Japan based on computer games
  • the popularity of slash ("original June") zines in Japan
  • underage characters and slash in Japan, Patalliro!
  • comments about some songvids by Carol McCoy, see that page

Excerpts from "Yamibutoh"

We couple of western slash fen in Japan have recently been considering the current slash boom in this country. Someone in the zine last ish made a comment about "slash" being a genre that is rather limited to white people. I sure hope you are only referring to the States or Europe as I am pretty sure that there are far far more Japanese slash fans than western "white" ones. Slash in Japan has a long tradition and, recently, just as it has in the States since Trek, it has been experiencing a boom that is pretty phenomenal.

When I came to Japan 7 years ago, slash was limited to zines that were sold at fanzine sales a couple times of year. It was quietly catered to by the anime studios who included just enough ambiguous characters and scenes to keep fans happy and writing and, of course, watching the shows. Now, there have been several successful movies and one very popular TV series featuring gays as the central plotline and watched by most of the Japanese women I've met. Mr. Children, the most successful pop group in Japan right now, got their big break singing the theme song for the gay drama series.

There are at least two lines of "gay comics for women" with a growing number of titles every month. There are also at least 5 or 6 monthly gay comics for women zines (zines are usually 230 plus pages). Many are pretty hard-core. Many feature fan writers going pro. Even my local bookstore carries most of these. Slash and original "slash" are just not underground here.

The question we have been debating is just why slash and homoerotica aimed at women is so common here. We have not finished the analysis yet, but are considering three points.

1. Japan is not a Christian country and lacks a history of religiously imposed morality. Morality in Japan is often situational which can mean, if this behavior is not causing a problem, then it is ok (this time). Thus, as in MZB's "original" Darkover concept, homosexuality is not a problem if one also does one's societal of duty of marrying and producing family if one is in such a situation where this is required. For people in the "Geinokai" or entertainment world, even this was not necessary. Japanese tend to define themselves by their "role" rather than any other more set way. This may mean that the office lady likes wearing her company uniform as it defines her as a member of a certain community of fellow workers, or a school boy likes his military style garb as it reflects his belonging to an important school. It may also mean that a kabuki actor wearing a female kimono is accepted as being a "woman" or a Takarazuka actress in a trench coat is a "man". That is, while everyone knows they are not, they are willing to let them be what they dress and act. There was a dating show on TV last term that set up dates between new-halves (transexuals) and "straight" men. We are wondering that if gender is considered a role, just like student or office lady, then perhaps people, men especially - as homophobia seems to be more serious among them, here, just do not feel themselves threatened in any way by homosexuality.

Genderbending has a long history of being considered sexy here. Slash writers are building on a long tradition. There is the Takarazuka. There is kabuki. There are the in-betweens.

I guess my reference last time to the popularity of slash zines based on computer games was not real clear, or there is no similar phenomena in the States or Europe. Computer role-playing games, including some of the more sophisticated arcade games, have become very very popular here in the last couple of years. Many of the games have whole series of top selling CDs for their music, books of character design and scenarios, art books even and a few have spawned animation OAVs and even one TV series (Streetfighter II Ft. 5) The games that are inspiring zines are mostly ones with pretty gorgeous character designs (except for Dragonquest) and an abundance of male characters. Popular zines are based on Streetfighter, Neo Geo, Final Fantasy and, recently, Angelique. Although Romancing Saga has, actually, the best characters, since the official artist for the game is a slash zine artist, most people seem to be respecting her rights to that series. Other games are "fair game". The main characteristics of the game zines that separate them from the more usual slash stuff is the greater musculature on the males and a real heavy preponderance of "hard" sex. Nipple rings? You want nipple rings???? Most of the art included this time is from different gaming zines. I do not play computer games at all, but some of these zines are just too good to pass up.

I only wish I found the characters [in Forever Knight] at all attractive, but the actor that plays Knight I find pretty unthrilling and the guy playing LaCroix gives me the creeps (I think he is kinda supposed to, but it sure does not make me want to put him in bed with anyone except maybe Travis).

Good point on sex between Scully and Mulder. If it was sex in friendship. It would not bother me. However, while I might trust some fans to write this, I do not trust a studio to film it.

I will have to see [Waterworld] now as the idea of Costner being sexy amazes me as much as it sounds like it amazed you. Your problem with "the girl" in the movie was very interesting as it is a problem that anime fans run into all the time. Though it may seem less disturbing because the characters are cartoons rather than played by a real actor or actress, nevertheless, in both cases you are dealing with a screen portrayal in a fictional story that is making you (or me) feel about the character(s) in a way that is not appropriate to their stated or (in the case of live players) real age.

Patalliro fans are continually bemoaning the fact that Mariach, agent Ban Goran's lover, is a 14 year old boy and, thus, underage. He does not act 14. His activities are far from typical 14. He is definitely sexualized in the comic. However, he is 14 and it is a problem. It sounds like a similar problem here. The child is playing more the heroine/love interest role than the child role. We have come up with no solution, only a problem.

[...]

Anything can be interpreted as sexual if someone is determined. Look at what we base our slash couple relations on!

Some Topics Discussed in "Mardi Gras Favors"

  • comments on JMS's warnings to fans about Babylon 5 tape trading/selling
  • comments on specific stories and zines

Excerpts from "Mardi Gras Favors"

About B5 fanfic, JMS doesn't seem to care if it's written - just don't send him or the cast any.

ABOUT PROD. COMPANIES MONITORING WHAT'S ON THE NET: This is an excerpt from the October 85 newsletter OBSERVATION DOME from JMS's comments about a fan's very stupid action: "[This is an excerpt from an open letter to a fan who went straight to Warner Bros, about fans selling/trading copies of episodes on the Internet. JMS wanted everyone to know that WB is watching the "nets" carefully now.] ...It's a breach of the ethics of this system to send postings by others, myself included, to the people at WB....we were already "handling" the issue, were already dealing with it. Until that moment, I referred matters of concern to those empowered to act, at the proper, lower-level areas. What your letter did was to embroil the two heads of WB, who until that moment didn't know the system much existed. And now folks from legal affairs regularly monitor the nets. Because you poked the head of the dragon."

New zines from Zcon made my luggage much heavier. Found LOVE & SACRIFICE Thursday eve. It held Irish's "Compassion" an AU set in Britain & US in 1990's. Seems Blake's a physician/researcher into AIDS at a gov research lab who's been nearly killed twice so a top security agency, Scorpio, is called in. The head of the agency, Avon, pops up as Blake is about to enter his bedroom saying "Bang, you're dead!" by way of introducing himself and the need for Scorpio's help.

I tried reading Helen Raven's story in NAUGHTS & CROSSES. After several pages I discovered that the plot revolved around Doyle's discovering that his new "android" partner was created by hurrying Bodie's death so they could use his severed head attached to the android body and that this had also been done to others in his agency. Eucchhh! 30 odd pages of wasted paper!

The front & back covers of Madelen [sic] Lee's (I think that's her name) mirror universe K/S + B/D + T/A novel REVOLUTION caught my eye in the Dealer's Room. They are copies of Suzan Lovett's originals that were in the Art Show to enjoy and bid on. K & S etc mutiny & run off with the Enterprise. I skipped ahead to read some of their meeting with one of the "rimrocker" bands. Spectrum, whose artists and singers are Doyle, Tris & Alex with Bodie as their drummer. The four aren't Terrans; they're Antosians who have the weirdest ability to literally physically meld while making love. Seems that the subversive & banned 20th century Rock n Roll has been rediscovered & is once again used to rabble-rouse out on the galaxy's rim along with gunrunning to cover their operating expenses.

Some Topics Discussed in "Desert Blooms"

Excerpts from "Desert Blooms"

On the subject of the clampdown by Paramount/Viacom on Star Trek clubs, etc. I find it very sad and very scary. If this purging continues and spreads I think this will most certainly affect us, even those not involved in Trek directly. I can't imagine some of the older, non-active (I mean by that, ones that are not continuing to produce shows, movies, etc) fandoms being attacked by the Corporate police but this sort of thing would very obviously create an atmosphere of mistrust and fear. I wonder though, how much legal strength they can exert since Trek fanfic has been knowingly allowed to exist and proliferate for the past 25 plus years? Is there some sort of statute of limitations? I'd be very interested in hearing anything else that happens on this topic.

It's funny you mentioned that I spoke only of the physical side of our meanderings on U2. The emotional side is very definitely there and I didn't even consider that I hadn't expressed it. I think when speaking to slash fen, in general, either the emotional or the sexual is somehow implied or assumed if not specifically mentioned but that's just laziness, or a fan shorthand. In this case, I assumed everyone would understand there was a deeply emotional foundation between the boys (you know, the boys on the road, the intense pressures and pleasures of performing constantly pushing them together, etc.) but of course, I should have said so!

One of the major shifts in the balance of friendship with the advent of Sheridan is Garibaldi's growing relationship with Franklin. Now there's a slash pairing if there ever was one! But then so was Garibaldi/Sinclair. Sheridan seems far too solidly hetero, which his growing relationship with Delenn seems to substantiate, to easily slash but I'm sure I could be persuaded if, ahem, someone were to write a roaring good Sheridan slash story! I assume by now you've seen more of the 2nd season and have discovered that the stalwart Sheridan isn't exactly what he appears to be. I do wish, though, that they could have developed more tension between him & Garibaldi. I find the show extremely satisfying as it is but if that tension and mistrust could have been carried forward during a few more eps then the working through of these problems would have been a delicious pleasure.

Zebra Con was loads of fun. It was my first Z-con and I couldn't have asked for a better time. There were loads of terrific zines, great fan conversations, and the infamous mass viewing of the "Vampire Dog" Forever Knight episode. (How long does it take something to become infamous'?)

[...]

I'm very disappointed by the current season of Forever Knight. The truly abysmal vampire dog episode aside, the new season just doesn't seem to have the same oomph that the first two had. It may be all the cast changes (3 characters gone, 3 new ones added) but the stories just seem full of holes (more than the normal amount) and pretty lame. I like the new vampire, Vachon, even though he seems like a really nice guy who just happens to be a vampire but I can't say the same for the new partner, Tracy, who's terribly young and naive and unconvincing. But the hardest change for me is that they seem to have taken the focus away from Nick and directed it mainly at Tracy and the crime-of-the-week. Nick spends a lot of time in the background looking alternately smug and amused. They also have subverted the character of LaCroix to a sideshow character, thrown in as a lightweight foil to Nick and Vachon. To my mind, LaCroix has always added a certain depth to the show because he's the one regular character that is allowed to be truly evil (although he isn't always portrayed as such) and poke and push at Nick to bring out certain truths and revelations. I would be very interested in hearing what other FK fans think of the new season.

Some Topics Discussed in "With Friends Like These, Who Needs Enemas? "

Excerpts from "With Friends Like These, Who Needs Enemas? "

All right, I admit it - I've been seduced by the Krycek side of the Force! The graphics included this time are all inspired by a Mulder/Krycek saga called The Best Lies, by Cody Nelson. Kathy Agel hopes to have the zine out for Eclecticon. It's got everything: plot, sex, incredible angst... I love it!

It may be possible to do Mulder/Scully so that it doesn't disrupt their working relationship, but that's not a story that I'd care to read. Not for fun, anyway. It's too much like work! (Mulder/Krycek, on the other hand. :)

Comparing S&H to current cop shows, there's a lot more violence. More hitting, more shooting, more fake blood. And it's depicted more graphically than would be permitted today. I think my mom was especially upset that it was often the heroes who were committing the violence. She didn't want me to think of police officers that way.

Not sure if I understand your questions about race and equality. I admit I don't much care for egregiously unbalanced relationships -- Avon/Vila, for example. And the dominant male of genre romance drives me nuts. I pretty much agree with Joanna Russ' take on slash: it's a way to make both partners equal - effortlessly. Equality is such a thorny and unavoidable problem in mundania; it's not something I really want to deal with seriously in fanfic. (At least not directly!) I think racial minorities are under represented in fandom, even taking class into account. The reason: fandom is weird. It takes a lot more intestinal fortitude to be voluntarily different when you're already involuntarily different. I'm not exactly the conforming sort.

Some Topics Discussed in "D is for Done"

Excerpts from "D is for Done"

I finished a story. I never thought I'd be able to make that statement ever again. Everyone has had bouts of writers' block, but I suffer from non-writer's block which is even more serious. People who suffer from writers' block at least consider themselves to be blocked from something they have a legitimate right to think they can do. Non-writer's block must be a fan writer thing. It's kind of like feeling cheated because you can't play Mozart even though you never bothered to learn how to play the piano.

I know, it doesn't make sense. I wrote to a deadline, passed it twice, and ended up dictating changes [K]] wanted at 1:00AM the night before the zine went to the copy shop. I know the story would have been better if I had more time. Unfortunately it would not have gotten done without the deadline.

I take pleasure in having opinions.

Silly me. I'm even naive enough to believe that an exchange of ideas helps to clarify my own beliefs from having my ideas challenged. I also enjoy trying to present my ideas in different ways, always trying to see them from different angles in the hopes of making them visible to just one more person. I get the feeling that this opinion thing, when exercised with passion and without trying to placate everybody in the world, is considered bad taste. Like somebody in the room farted but everybody is going to ignore it because they have manners.

What's wrong with having passion about something as unimportant as the nature of slash? It isn't as if the outcome of the debate is going to materially or spiritually alter anybody's existence.

Contrary to popular belief, my ideas about slash have changed quite a bit since joining the APA. Now, I believe it is narrower than I would have thought. I'm also much more in touch with the importance of the female factor (no pun intended, none accomplished), so much so that I'm beginning to feel uncomfortably close to a feminist sometimes (but don't tell Rush [2]).

I shall continue to be what passes for blunt (passionate), but I also hope my ideas keep evolving, even

if only like the glacier nobody else notices them advancing or retreating.

Some Topics Discussed in "Running All the Way"

  • f/f fiction, why there isn't more of it
  • some quotes from an Anne Rice mailing list
  • how slash has changed this fan's life
  • a quick mention of working on the Pros novel, Angel in the Dark
  • inclusion of a short essay, "What Is Art" by Leo Tolstoy (1897) Part XV

Excerpts from "Running All the Way"

I am exceedingly grateful to the universe or whatever that D-Notice finally made it out and that it only took eight years ...

There's nothing like doing a zine for me that brings back my whole sense of what being a fan is all about. Between reading the stories, referencing other zines to see what's current in layout and mastheads, discussing the various stories and plans with the authors and co-editor, hassling with the printers, sitting around with a group of fans collating and binding, cleaning up little tiny pieces of paper off the floor, I really get that feeling of being part of something I love in a concrete and specific way.

This year has been one of closure on a lot of levels for me; perhaps that's why I feel time is rushing past at great speed. I'm glad to be able to say I'm writing regularly again, finishing off stories that have been languishing for years - and actually seeing the end in sight of my Pros novel. I can hardly imagine what it will be like not to have all this stuff hanging over my head!

Last month I holed up and watched most of a friend's collection of the X-Files ~ and I'm hooked. Well, the paranormal/aliens from space scenario was a natural for me, along with the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit, and a dash of government conspiracies to feed my paranoid fantasies. And great characters. I love the Mulder and Scully set-up and find it strikingly reminiscent of the standard buddy show matrix that most slash is based on. The tension, the hurt-comfort bits, the arguments, the hints of deeper feeling ... It seems to me that someone has done an excellent job of tossing traditional masculine and feminine characteristics into the air and assigning them to each character, so that they each are a good mix of both.

I used to wonder if it would be possible to set up the same dynamic as slash has between a male and female character and I'm delighted to find just that in the X-Files. From what I've read so far in the alt.tv.x-files.creative archive, the same sorts of stories as found in slash are showing up too. Of course, that fact that Mulder is adorable doesn't hurt.

Watching X-Files has made me realize how much I enjoy tension between characters in all the shows I like, the will-they-or-won't-they see-saw with both possibilities staying open. I suppose that's one reason I don't mind unhappy endings - they provide a needed balance of tension to all the happy-ever-afters. When I can't be completely certain of the happy ending, I enjoy it much more if I do get one.

Re f/f stories: There isn't any demand—very few fans want to write or read them. The only ones I've seen tend to be short and humourous, along the lines of, 'if only the guys knew' type of thing. Which is unfortunate - I know that if there existed a ff story that had the same energy as slash, I would probably really enjoy it. Or alternatively, if a story existed that addressed the different sorts of issues that would come up in a f/f relationship as opposed to a m/m one. I will say that even though there are strong female characters on the shows she mentioned, except for B5 which I haven't seen, those characters are not shown in the same sort of relationship to one another that the men are. B7 is a good example: the Avon/Blake relationship dominates the series, infiltrating every part of it and supplying the tragic ending. This cannot be said about any of the relationships among the women.

Avon and Vila are showed as friends-colleagues in thievery, with a certain amount of mutual respect and antagonism. Although this sort of thing could have been developed with Jenna and Cally it was not. Jenna and Servalan have possibilities, but their only encounter was in The Keeper; not enough to work with.

While it is true that slash fans now create relationships between characters that have no on-screen time and/or no real chemistry, that is a late development. The Murphy stories in Pros were preceded by lots and lots of B/D; in fact I often wonder if they were initially a product of, oh let's do something a little different for a change. Only on a show where the female characters fit the same criteria as the male characters we slash, could ff slash develop on its own merits, and not just as a "we ought to," sort of thing. Is there, or has there been a show where the heroes are mainly women, certainly the central characters at least; both women are attractive (neither too pretty nor too ordinary like our male heroes), neither character has any permanent outside entanglements, their friendship is valued and tested over and over again, and they are in a dangerous profession? Where their relationship is a much a focus of the show as the plot events?

It's not just men's sexuality that is more attractive. Male strength and male vulnerability and pain are more 'interesting' than women's as well. Women suffering and enduring are the norm, not to be taken seriously. I can't count the times I've heard a slash fan say, I'm just not interested in stories about women. Well, as far as slash per se goes, I'm not either. But a surprising (to me) number of fans don't want to read any stories with female protagonists or m/f relationships. They have depressingly similar reasons: women are not good enough, strong enough, interesting enough, sexy enough, etc., etc., they just aren't acceptable as one-half of a relationship. What messages were instilled at an early age to give us, as women, the idea that any relationship that has a woman in it is by definition less interesting or exciting than male-only relationships? And it is not just a sexual thing, women like to see men together and men like to see women together, because men quite often like/admire and identify with male heroes, and getting turned on by two girls together doesn't eliminate interest in male/female stories.

Slash has had a powerful effect on my life and my thinking, I would even say revolutionary — slash forces me to constantly question my assumptions and beliefs about sexuality and sexual orientation, what is masculine/what is feminine, how does love, beauty, anger, jealousy, etc. fit into relationships, what's the difference between friends and lovers. For the most part it has been liberating, particularly in the area of sexuality. I am freer, more open, more confident of myself because of my interaction with slash material. But deep down I still feel some pain that me and my kind, females, are excluded from depictions of the type of love described in slash stories. Nobody 'ought' to do anything about this; it's just something that bothers me occasionally, for the fact is, I also find slash stories more exciting than anything else. So far.

Some Topics Discussed in "Untitled by M G"

  • Babylon 5
  • The Tick, a comic book and Fox network cartoon
  • much about fan fiction, canon, and character height differences

Excerpts from "Untitled by M G"

There have been, what, three or four references to Mulder's solitary sexual activities in the first five episodes, compared to two or three in the whole first two seasons. What's happening here? Are we being reminded They Are Not Getting Together Noway Nohow? Is it a running gag about David Ducatnip's appeal, contrasting that with the fact Mulder ain't getting any? No, I know, it's a CONSPIRACY!!!! Wasn't Frohicke broken up over Mulder's death? Anyone seen any Mulder/Frohicke stories out there?

Fall Television: The stuff I'm watching seems pretty short on slash potential. Forever Knight's new young vampire stud has yet to make enough screen time to be well-established, much less to work up potential for Nick/Javier stories. (He does have great eyes for the part though.) I sure miss Janette — the level of sexuality has dropped quite a bit without her, even though Nick seemingly got to go to bed with a mortal, way casually, too — which doesn't match my views on the subject.

Ah, yes, the ultimate key to media pairs. The taller one will be on top. (Hasn't the taller Presidential candidate always won since the debates have been televised? Or every time but once?) Okay, fine. But we need some refinements here. Clearly this is why Doyle is made to be slim, slight, short etc. by many writers, even though the actor is almost the same height as Collins, and, given the perm... And Shatner and Nimoy are almost eye-to-eye. Perhaps there is a range, say three inches? two? where in effect they are the same height. Then the fan writer is forced to exaggerate the difference for the role she wishes the character to assume. (Perhaps slimness works as a replacement for shortness?) And I believe a special case must be made regarding Vila, as I think Keating has said that he played Vila small. (Fans seem to have bought it, too — how many times have you read 'the little thief?')

Early on in the first season, JMS was referenced in a print article that Talia was the gay character he had promised would be on the show. Later in other spots he has said that he is only interested in any character's sexuality as it involves the story, and that he wouldn't do romance stories just for the sake of romance. Clearly, in the case of Talia, there just wasn't a place for it. (And, referencing Ironheart, bi rather than gay should have been the label, or maybe he changed his mind. Maybe we still have a chance with Garibaldi or Ivanova?) With Talia, a moot point post "Divided Loyalties."

Some Topics Discussed in "Two Heads are Better than One" (NB)

This is the first trib where [N B] is alone, no [M F G]: "I'm sure she'll come back biting everyone's kneecaps in the next issue. I hope everybody has written something to get her all riled up. It's wonderful to see her climb onto her soapbox at times like those."

Excerpts from "Two Heads are Better than One" (NB)

Reyrct on my response to Odo/Quark. I still find them unappealing and it may be alienaphobia. Sorry, but they're simply not erotic to me. This is also true with Garak/Bashir where I like DVS's stories despite my antipathy towards Cardassians. Scaly looking faces and neck ridges, ugh!

It surprised the hell out of me when I realized that I had become the fan of a show that was het and romantic. Being a well-known associate of M. Fae, I'm sure many of you find this unbelievable. Well, despite our strong connection, I really do have somewhat different tastes from hers, and so, while she would never be able to stomach the show, I have become a complete and total addict of Lois and Clark. (Stop throwing up all over the SBF!)

What are your reactions to the Talia/Susan (relationship?) night spent together? [S] stop screaming, I know you think they wimped out. I agree. But as a genetic slash fan (it's all in the jeans, it's all in the jeans...) I'm perfectly capable of finishing the scene that the camera didn't. Besides, I think JMS (whether or not he cares/knows if they 'did it', but recognizing that as an ostensibly straight male, he probably would enjoy seeing at least the preliminaries) is trying to maintain a certain balance with the show. He's trying to get all 5 seasons made and doesn't want to plunge from the tightrope into cancellation. So that leaves us with fanfic. Does anyone know if anything hot has been posted to anywhere on the net? Other than a couple of privately circulated stories, I know of only 2 zines, both available from Bill Hupe. The first is a novel (Talia/Susan) with bad characterization. The second is a collection of short stories entitled Babylon 5: A Selection of Short Stories. Very original. Contents are several Talia/Susan, Talia/Delenn, Delenn/Sinclair, Delenn/Sheridan, plus a bunch of piffle. The zine is very slight, indeed. But, when there's not much out there...

You will not be surprised to hear that I'm one of the people who find LZ songvids utterly boring. But it makes me wonder how boring our slash songvids would be/are to non-fans?

Oh the Joys of Fandom and Fannish Connections: There is a real thrill to watching something you adore for the first time. I remember how exciting classic Trek was to me when it was first broadcast in 1966, how I stretched out seeing Blake's 7 to one episode a week so that I could savor it, how I absorbed Sandbaggers in 2 days, and how M. Fae and I spent a number of weekends, drawing the blinds and unplugging the phone so we could watch Pros undisturbed. Well, a number of SBF and slashlist members got together in late August for a marathon viewing of the Final Four episodes of B5 season 2 that the Powers That Be had banished from the airwaves until October. (Thank goodness for UKland and fan friends who could provide tapes!) MMM, what a delicious afternoon it was, watching those 4 eps with like-minded, obsessed slash friends. I can compare the thrill only to the gloriousness of reading a Sebastian story for the first time.

Who'd a thunk it? Garak/Bashir? Well, it sounded intriguing but I didn't have any real hopes for this pairing until I realized that DVS was writing it. I'm in love. She's really done it — gone and made me forget how unappealing I find Cardassians and turned things round so I adore reading her different takes on how the two of them got together. (As usual, first time stories give me the most bang for my buck, although there is a wonderfully, M. Faeish story in The Third Plain and Simple Zine.) There are now four of the zine (and more in the works, I believe), and it wasn't until after Z-Con that I realized one of the appetizing bits about the pairing: Dr. Bashir, healer and mender of torn bodies, and Garak, former (?) spy, member of the Obsidian Order, and torturer, maker of torn bodies in need of healing. Does Paramount have any idea of what they've created? I think not.

Some Topics Discussed in "Lavender Lilies"

Excerpts from "Lavender Lilies"

Re Tris and Alex, Jimmy and Robert: I was listening to their latest version of "Kashmir" one day, and this desert fantasy involving a Prince Tris and a blond English slave named Alex came to mind You see, Prince Tris's evil father uses and abuses poor Alex. But on summer nights, Alex has a marvelous voice, and he sings plaintively. Tris, of course, falls deeply, and must plot to rescue Alex <sigh > One of these days, I'll get it done.

Defining one's gender. If a person says she is female, then she is. In My Humble Opinion. Which is what Dil does in the film, The Crying Game. So are Fergus/Dil stories "slash" or "heteroerotica?" Makes for some interesting questions in categorizing. Those damn labels again.

On F/F slash and why more aren't written, is there really a demand for them, etc: I don't know if I can supply too many of the answers, to tell the truth. All know is that recently I was reading a Babylon 5 anthology zine which featured mixed F/F and M/F pairs. I came across a short, PWP story involving Talia/Ivanova I guess I'm really desperate, because there was an oh-so-brief sex scene where Ivanova expresses her joy in having "Talia - all of her....." The emotion and intensity were there. I only wished there were an actual plot and more sex. Sigh.

I do have customers come up to me at my [dealer's] table when I'm huckstering my zines who inquire about F/F stories. Many are women, a few are men. These men aren't looking for a bit of nookie between women, or "put slot A into slot B." They're looking for romance and emotion. One of my male friends wrote a sweet little Kira/Dax story where the two crash land on a strange planet, one of them gets injured and..... The love scenes are tender, and my friend said that this was the true story of Kira and Dax. It's in On The Edge 2.

One of the main tragedies of my life was when the actress who played Talia decided to go elsewhere. So they had to take Talia out of the show, have her mind taken over by an evil entity. Just when she and Susan were becoming so intimate - when they spent the night together in Talia's quarters. Now Talia is out of the show!!!!!! Arrrgghh!!! People have said that I shouldn't worry, another female telepath will be added, and I can go and slash her and Ivanova. But I don't just want just any female telepath, I want Talia!! Talia and Susan belong together forever...!!!!! I haven't been able to bring myself to watch Babylon 5 since Talia left. Maybe at some later time. It had such promise.

On my circuit story, "A Time To Grieve." Yes, this story is a shameless Mary Sue story. And Ray Doyle is my Mary Sue character, I admit it (/ confess, " confess.....) I wrote the story shortly after a good friend of mine had died of AIDS; it was a way of working through my grief And one of the important elements was the queering of both characters. Two presumably straight characters turn out to be queer. And they must suffer the consequences. But their love survives, even through these obstacles. Yeah, it's corny, slushy and romantic. But I like corny, slushy, romantic stories. So I have bad tastes> it's just one of my kinks.

I am totally smitten with Captain Janeway. I also have seen some sparks between her and B'Elanna Torres. I can see it now, the Captain is captured by evil Klingons in some sort of AU. She gets dragged to the slave market where B'Elanna (a very alternate version who is proud of her Klingon ancestry) awaits in order to purchase the delectable prize for her very own.

As a slash fan, I want the intense relationship along with the sex. Or even instead of the sex. I've recently been buying some DS9 and Voyager genzines, and reading them with relish. Many times a sexual/romantic relationship isn't necessary, and would even spoil the mood which is established by the writer. No, I don't consider these genzines to be "slash" by any stretch of any definition but in other ways, they fulfill a fannish need of mine.

Definitions of slash seem to have fallen into two general categories. There are those who see slash as homoerotic, dealing with two (or more) people of the same sex. The kick is the "queering" of characters have been presented as heterosexual in the show's canon. The characters turn out to be bisexual or gay. And it doesn't matter whether the gender of the characters are male or female, as long as both characters have the same gender.

The other general category I've seen for defining slash is that slash is about men. It's not homoeroticism per se which creates the "kick," it's the maleness of the characters which does this. Of course the characters can be as queer as $3 bills as long as they are both men. Or they can be presented as two totally heterosexual men who just happen to fall in love with each other. It's the fact that they are of the male gender which is the important element in this view.

I tend to see definitions which include opposite-gender pairings in the category of "slash" as being either in the realm of ignorance, or as being a fringe categorization. And as most of you already know, I adhere to the first definition for my own reading and writing activities. Slash involves homoeroticism, it's the homoeroticism which makes it "slash" as opposed to "adult." (I still hate this name. Is "slash" for non-adults or something? I prefer and use the term "heteroerotic"). Slash is same-sex, regardless of what sex is involved. Of course when you deal with Trills (ST:DS9) or a character like Dil from The Crying Game, the questions of categorizing "male" and "female" become rather gray issues. Which is when it gets really fascinating for me, as some of you have seen me babble on about here.

This definition of slash is purely a personal definition, for me to operate in. I don't insist that others take this view. Even if I did, it wouldn't work, because slash is such a personal subject for most people who indulge in it.

[...]

I hope that no "correct consensus" ever gets developed. Slash and slashfans tend to be an anarchistic lot, resisting rigid standards of any sort of "correctness." Witness the uneasiness some people feel about "The Fan Police," an uneasiness I share.

Some Topics Discussed in "Untitled by N F-G" and "Wonderlust"

Excerpts from "Untitled by N F-G" and "Wonderlust"

My introduction into fandom was ass-backwards.

Years ago I had a [friend]. Since neither of us had cars and we did not live within walking distance, our main contact (and hobby) was roleplaying over the phone (only we didn't call it that because roleplaying games hadn't been invented).

[...]

More time passed and I became privy to a mediafanfic writing clique whose stories centered around the romantic adventures of a secondary STAR WARS character and his favorite (male) clerk [3]. Then the Great Lucas film Flap happened and the third SW film where practically all the secondary characters got blown away (literally) and that was that.

Then...the epiphany. I was at a con and I happened to stumble across the EXCELLENT K/S SHATTERED IMAGES I think it's called, the K/S novel where James Kirk winds up in an alternate universe where's it's Spock who's the captain of the Enterprise and the Vulcans call all the shots. I also picked up a couple of back issues of NOME. Well, I was *In Love* This is also the first time in my life I discovered I may have been playacting it, I may have been reading it (courtesy of that aforementioned SW writing clique) but I didn't know it had a name.

[...]

The whole point of this rambling discourse was to tell how one could be caught up with "/" — and yet not know it.

Frankly, I'm scared [of The Viacom Crackdown ], verging on panic. I was there when Lucasfilm ran STAR WARS fandom underground. I would hate to see a similar fate happen to STAR TREK fandom as well. And for those of you who might wonder why Paramount is using Australia as a testcase? Australia does not have the Constitution of the United State to protect them. They only have British Common Law which isn't much of a protection. (I am reminded yet again, of a S-F panel at the Worldcon in England where a British science fiction writer expressed envy that he and his countrymen didn't have the Constitution to protect them.).

Question for everybody: Why are so many people in SBF graduate students? I guess I'm just sensitive to this 'cause I don't even have a college degree.)

CATALYST is the first slashzine I can remember reading where I wish that the author would give up writing slash and turn to gen (using Sinclair) since her strengths obviously lie in that area. In a slash round robin that I run, a fan pen friend is trying to turn her crossover story into slash — and it wants to stay nonslash? I wonder how common this phenomenon is? The SBF discussion about CATALYST plus my own experience reading it, reminds me of a common trap some writers, both professional & fan, fall into: They are so busy analyzing their characters, they forget to treat their personas as people. And it's funny too. CATALYST'S scenarios of having her characters stand around Talia, endlessly discussing her, psychoanalyzing her as if she wasn't there even as she sit in the midst of them all, reminds me of how I was treated when I was blind. People asking my husband, "Do you think [N] would like...?" instead of just asking me. (This is a common problem when you're blind, as my blind peers could tell you.) Hm. Would Catalyst's treatment of Talia Winters be more believable had she been totally blind?

January 1990, NBC started making noises that it was seriously considering moving QUANTUM LEAP from its Wednesday night 10:00 pm slot. Fearing the worse, I fired off a letter to KNBC urging that the network not make this leap. My letter, added to those of other fans turned the tide for the next thing I knew, NBC changed its mind. Their decision was underscored by the now infamous commercial showing the then-president of KNBC being snowed under by all the fan letters urging that KNBC save QL. Less than a month later, I got a letter from Donald P. Ballisario thanking me for writing in support of QL. He also extended an invitation for me and a guest to attend a private screening in the Hitchcock Theater inside the Universal Studios complex. As it turned out, this kind invitation was extended towards all the fans who had written in support of QL. On the night of the screening, we saw on a regular movie-sized screen the QL episode, "8½ Months" (Sam Leaps into a pregnant teenager) episode. Before the viewing of this episode, and afterwards, we were treated to a Q&A session hosted by Don Ballisario himself. With him were Dean Stockwell, Scott Bakula and Jean-Pierre Dorleac — the costume designer who did Al's wardrobe.

Some Topics Discussed in "When Correctly Viewed"

Excerpts from "When Correctly Viewed"

I'm curious: what was the "unlikeliest pairing" they came up with at ClosetCon? I quite liked the results of a similar contest at MediaWest, for which one of the winning pairs was John Adams and Thomas Jefferson in "Seventeen Seventy-Sex, the Musical." "I burn, Mr. J." "So do I, Mr. A." It was, I believe, a group from Philadelphia who thought it up, appropriately enough.

Ah, another Barbara Hambly fan! You know, if you get on GEnie you can talk to Barbara Hambly in person, in her topic in the Science Fiction Round Table. But as to whether any of her female protagonists are Mary Sues — it never occurred to me that they might be, but then, I don't know the author. I would say that Janet Kagan's protagonists definitely are Mary Sues; this is not a problem in the original novels (Hellspark, Mirabile), but I did find it irksome in the Star Trek novel (Uhura's Song), although there's also a lot to like in the book.

On killing off B7 characters: you may be right about the tendency to kill off Dayna or Soolin being a way to establish the reality of the danger the others are in without disrupting the group dynamics too much, so that they get it not because they are female but because they are seen as less important; that would also explain why occasionally it's Tarrant who is the sacrifice. (Carol McCoy, Godmother of the Tarrant Nostra, has a funny story about how she used to buy absolutely any zine that mentioned Tarrant's name, until on a plane going home from a con, she happily opened up one of her new purchases and read "Tarrant... was dead.")

On black Vulcans: I think I fall into the camp of those who consider it an excessively farfetched coincidence that an alien race should show exactly the same variations as ours. Besides, it undoes a lovely fannish explanation of Vulcan skin color that I saw probably in an old Spockanalia, or some zine of similar vintage: Vulcans have an opaque white skin pigment that enables them to withstand the sun (it's reflective — makes sense!) and covers up most of the greenness of their blood. Well, all right, I suppose some of them might have an opaque dark pigment— but that that should be accompanied by the Some variations in facial features as in humans is too much! I do like the actor, though; he's an excellent Vulcan.

"I write for the purity of my Art, profit never even entered my head." Most of the [pro] writers I know say they do it partly for the money and partly because they just can't help doing it. I can't offhand think of any who've made claims about Art as a motive for writing in the first place, although it does sometimes come up as a motive for doing a better job than you are being paid to do.

On penetration: I was very taken with your comment, about how you wish that real-life heterosexual sex would be done with as much care and concentration as is displayed in slash stories. Yes!! This is an excellent concrete example of the idea that slash shows men behaving as women wish they would — it's not just a matter of "more emotion," but some very specific, physical things too.

I can't find the Pros story with the character I thought might be based on you; probably it's in a zine I borrowed from a friend. I thought she was you for the same sort of reasons I thought Duv Galeni in Brothers in Arms was Avon; or the stage manager who appears briefly in How Much for Just the Planet? by John M. Ford (a Star Trek musical comedy, recommended to any of you who haven't already read it) was the author; or Nannla and Tillijen in The Gathering Flame, by Debra Doyle and James D. MacDonald, were Ellen Kushner and Delia Sherman respectively: that is, a list of similarities of appearance, personality, and/or circumstances. As I recall, the character in the Pros story was a nurse (well, not a nanny, but close enough), had red hair (and maybe a Scottish accent? I can't remember), and told the boys that she had been fascinated by gay men from an early age, and helped them get together. That seemed like a suspiciously long list of similarities to me. Of course, the only way to be sure about these things is to ask the author. But so far I've found that my suspicions are usually correct. I'm more likely to err in the direction of failing to recognize people I ought to know. When I asked about that character in How Much for Just the Planet, for example, I also learned that the princess and her swain were Diane Duane and Peter Morwood, the innkeepers were Pamela Dean and David Dyre-Bennett, and the pirate queen and her henchman were Janet and Ric Kagan. I didn't know all of those people at the time, but I still felt I should have guessed at least a few of them. So far there has been one denial by an author that I still don't believe: Barbara Paul says that Curt Holland in You Have the Right to Remain Silent was not supposed to be based on Avon. But since she's a great fan of B7, I suspect her subconscious may have been playing a trick on her. In any case, the issue of the character's origins is completely obscured now, because she has taken up the idea of the Avonic resemblance and is deliberately playing on it in the later books in the series.

You made an interesting point that in some cases, a random female character in a story might well disrupt the flow of the plot because certain male characters with a studly image to maintain would feel obliged to flirt. I hadn't considered that. I also wasn't fully aware of the extent to which the slash writer is placed between the devil and the deep blue sea: criticized for not having female characters, or criticized for having them only in minor roles. Still, my personal preference is for stories that have women in them, as opposed to stories that don't (unless it's a PWP with no characters other than the two guys).

I'm convinced that the good old-fashioned kind [of slash] you feel nostalgic for is far from defunct. I have recently witnessed the birth of a slash fan — someone who had known - about it for years but always thought she didn't like it, until suddenly she changed her mind. But is she interested in present-day gay male issues? Not a bit of it. She likes basically heterosexual guys being put into a situation where they HAVE to do the deed, and then discovering to their own surprise that they enjoy it, with lots of tender affection and mutual admiration between two Beautiful Sex Objects. Classic! So I think that old-time slash will always be with us, being constantly rediscovered and reinvented by new people, even if the avant garde of fandom is doing something quite different.

Eluki bes shahar has a theory that every writer has one basic theme that he or she is constantly dealing with, but that it is better for the writer never to know what that theme is, because if she knew, then she might never write again. (Shades of the character in some David Lodge book or other whose novels are analyzed by computer; when he learns that his favorite, most frequently-used word is "grease," he becomes completely blocked and cannot write again.) We had a very amusing time once while driving back from a convention, trying to figure out the basic themes of various writers; but unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for them!) I don’t remember most of it now.

I have often wondered whether we were intended to believe that the "real” Vila is shorter than the "real" Avon, in the same way that we persuade ourselves to believe in the godawful B7 special effects; or whether we were supposed to believe that the "real" Vila deliberately makes himself look insignificant by scrunching up. Then, of course, there's Tarrant, who tends to be on the bottom, except when he's a mad rapist. There does, now that I think about it, tend to be a lot of concern with turnabout and role-switching in Tarrant stories of the sweeter sort; perhaps that is an expression of the contradiction suggested by the character who is much younger, less experienced, and less fannishly significant being also much taller. I’d say that probably Tarrant is more likely to get at least a turn on top in an A/T story than Vila in an A/V, although there are so many more examples of the latter than the former that it's hard to compare.

A character within the fannish universe who is an avatar of the author. "Original” characters spring from many sources; they may be based on friends or acquaintances of the author, or characters borrowed from other fannish universes. Why not the author herself, then? Again, stories of this kind can be very enjoyable. I remember the Dorothy and Myfanwy stories in early issues of T-Negative as being good fun. There was no doubt that those two young women on the Enterprise were the authors, but nobody minded. I spotted a more recent example in a B7 het smut story written for an e-mail round robin, but not right away; only about a week after I'd read the story did it dawn on me that the female warlord who had demanded (and gotten) Avon's services as pert of her negotiations bore a certain physical resemblance to the author. I inquired, and she fessed up. But apparently nobody else had noticed.

[Mary Sue as] an Idealized Identification Figure, to Anglicize the term that [K] suggested, which I like very much. I’m leaving out the "female" part, because I think male writers do it too. I mean, what else is Conan the Barbarian! .. This is the "too good to be true" Mary Sue, the problematic kind, especially when it's combined with (2), since few readers can reasonably be expected to identify with someone else's idealized self-image. (I think it also accounts for the frequent description of Wesley Crusher as a Mary Sue figure; the writers who created him were adults, but he was intended as an identification figure for the presumed adolescent male audience — an implicit insult to adult viewers, especially female ones, and IMO why he’s so disliked.) But is every superhero a Mary Sue? That doesn't seem right. Maybe this is a difference between pro fiction and fan fiction: unusually strong original characters are a problem in fan fiction because, as various people have already suggested, they detract from the series characters.

This one is a bit farfetched, but [Mary Sues can be] one of the characters from the original product, with whom the author apparently identifies very strongly in the context of that particular story. This is probably the hardest type to pinpoint, since the criteria are so subjective. Still, when a reader of a story I had coauthored remarked that she thought Servalan in the story sounded like a college professor, I had to plead guilty. And I noticed that it was [S]'s interpretation of a character in a story by [N]. I know of one anti-slash fan who feels that all slash stories are merely attempts to disguise Mary Sues getting it on with the beloved by giving them the bodies of other male characters! In its pure form I'd say that idea is grotesque, but still, there's an element of truth in it; it kind of ties in with my power-trip theory of slash (that women like to fantasize about being bigger and stronger than the male sex object).

There's excitement in the electronic universe, though, with the creation of a new adults-only B7 mailing list. Space City, open to all interested parties of legal age. I recommend it highly. If you'd like to join, send a request with an age statement to [S B S].

Some Topics Discussed in "The World is Hollow..."

  • Babylon 5 and appeal of characters
  • people in the UK don't use their mobile phones in public
  • f/f stories
  • Arthurian Legend slash
  • the film, Waterworld
  • the use and acceptance of the term queer: "My sense is that the word "queer" is actualy limited to academic and queer-activist circles, or those familiar with their language and methods."

Excerpts from "The World is Hollow..."

In the first few episodes of B5, I thought Garibaldi was the only character with the slightest bit of sex appeal. Once Ivanova loosened up a bit and began acting human instead of like Katharine Janeway, I thought Garibaldi was one of only two characters with etc. I think he's a great candidate for being queer, though I don't really see anyone to slash him with — not even Sinclair.

I haven't ever heard that there's much demand for f/f slash. In fact, except for [N], I've never heard any demand or strong desire for it, although I have heard people (including me) say they would be glad to find some good stuff. Who is alleging that there is a demand for it? (Are they not just alleging that there ought to be a demand for it, just as there supposedly ought to be a supply of it?) Seems to me that if there were a demand there would be a supply; fandom is one of the near-perfect economies in that way. The fact that there is a very limited supply implies to me that there is a very limited demand, since as you rightly say, where there's a will, there's a way.

On monitored BBSes, but you have Big Brother watching (and censoring) you. I have heard ominous stories about one of the major Internet providers enforcing "family values" (translation: no discussion of homosexuality) on some monitored group, though I admit I can't remember any details that would allow authentication of this story. Does GEnie have a policy stating what is permissible on each BBS, and what constitutes inappropriate language, subject, or manner and will not be posted?

Some Topics Discussed in "To Be Announced by T H"

Excerpts from "To Be Announced by T H"

Isn't it amazing how fannish passions can take over your life. There I was drifting along watching Babylon 5 and Due South, enjoying them as programs and light relief from life, and as intelligent shows on an otherwise unenlightened television when I had to go and find the various Babylon 5 newsgroups and then to cap it all, someone mentions Due South slash and my life collapses under the strain.

I have spent the last month or so passing innuendo and sexual fantasies on the Babylon 5 newsgroup. During one scene in the final 4 episodes Sheridan suddenly became sexual. There I was, watching this character who really did nothing for me, then he gets put into a particular scene and suddenly he is a sexual creature who demands that I fantasize about him, and tell the world! I used to post a grand total of about 2 news postings a week, for the last two months is has been about 5 a day to the Babylon 5 group. I want my life back!

Due South, on the other hand was a really good series that I fell in love with, then my friend mentioned slash, and started writing a story and I was hooked. Just about every fan I know here is drooling over the Mountie, and is ready and willing to put him or Ray into just about any hurt/comfort scenario. Personally, while I might lust after the Mountie, I love the Ray Vecchio character, I could be friends with him for life. One of the things I really like is that there is no 'bimbo/love interest of the week' stuff, none of the traditional love interest that cop shows are usually so fond of. The drama and comedy is very well done, and there are more than enough overtones to keep a slash fan happy for a very long time. The whole series has just forced it's way into my soul - the last episode airs tonight, then we have to wait until God knows when for the second season, and hope that some US TV station picks it up and it gets a third season.

One thing that strikes me in all this, has anyone worked out what in particular leads to some shows being slashed or multiple slashed and other shows which apparently have all the right prerequisites being ignored? For me, I have to like the characters, the interactions between them. I very rarely find one, let alone both, sexually attractive. But, saying that, there are some shows that even though I love the characters and their interactions I just don't really see a slash potential. A friend got rabidly into Inspector Morse slash, but whereas I really loved that show I did not see a Morse/Lewis relationship - even though I wrote her two stories on just that theme! Just what is it that triggers that slash response, that has us drooling and manic about seeing all the episodes right now, writing faster than we can think? Anyone any ideas? We could make a fortune if we could bottle and sell it!

References

  1. ^ "Death's Angel"?
  2. ^ This fan is a fan of Rush Limbaugh.
  3. ^ This clerk is Serzho Alyandi, a character in The Executor Cycle and other stories.
Retrieved from "https://fanlore.org/w/index.php?title=Strange_Bedfellows_(APA)/Issue_011&oldid=2591327"