Template talk:PPOV

approach

Trying a different approach. The giant letters and the yellow background usually somehow scare me away from an article. It's like a brick wall and when there is more than one of these on a page I want to hide from the article. /o\ These are my personal issues but I just wanted to try if there is way to make these things less scary. Let me know if it's not working and I'll change it back. --Doro 07:39, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

the background was yellow? I always see some sort of light pastel pink with maybe a touch into orange as background of the the boxes? a very non-alarmist color anyway. *is baffled*--RatCreature 09:52, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

ETA: if it doesn't have a background it would need a much thicker border or something to set it off. As it is it doesn't stand out from the rest. I mean, at first I couldn't even see that it had a box at all because the borde was so thin and the contrast so low.--RatCreature 10:05, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I always saw it as a pale yellow/ocre? Definitely not pink. o_O I used the same color for the border but I agree that it would need to be a stronger color if there is no background. --Doro 10:18, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I can see the border now, but I like it better if the notices look all the same. I'm not married to the background color (btw, I google the hex code #fbf3d4 and have seen it called "cream" on some color schemes so clearly there are very different perceptions.) also I find the text with all the mights and mays too tentative. I like that it explains how this kind of unfinished is different from the stub kind of unfinished, but is less than clear. How about "This article is in progress. Some opinions or a particular focus may take up more space than seems justified by the length of the article or by the issue at hand, making the article unbalanced. Please change and expand the focus by adding to the article and check out our Plural Point of View policy. When in doubt, discuss your concerns on the talk page of the article." --RatCreature 10:59, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I would like it better if the notices looked the same too and maybe we can change the other templates when we find something that we think would be an improvement? Especially the needs more fandom template looks so aggressive that I never use it. But changing the wording and adding more explanatory text might do the trick. I'm not married to the "no color" background, it's just that I dislike the colored backgrounds in the templates.

Hmm. I like "This article may appear unbalanced" as an introduction because it directly addresses the issue. :/ All wiki articles are by their very nature in progress but if there is no stub, someone obviously thought the article could already stand on its own so it might not be in progress in the way that someone is actually working on it. How about "This article may appear unbalanced because some opinions or a particular focus take up more space than seems justified by the length of the article or by the issue at hand. Please change and expand the focus by adding to the article and check out our Plural Point of View policy. When in doubt, discuss your concerns on the talk page of the article." --Doro 12:14, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Putting in my two cents: I like the border/no background - you see that it's there, but it's not jumping at you. I think making the font smaller (or in another way different from the rest of the text on a page) will help make clear that this is something outside the normal wiki text. And maybe add icons to the templates? For me at least, pics always help to quicky identify a note like this. Michelle 12:30, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I like the idea of adding icons! I just don't know how. Hmm. --Doro 17:04, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

ETA: I figured out how to add an icon. \o/ --Doro 19:03, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I think the stub templates are not consistently added, which is a separate issue. I think I have trouble with putting "unbalanced" so prominently, because while the PPOV policy says "The PPOV policy is a fan-positive, balanced synthesis of multiple points of view that fans may have on a single topic.", I want to avoid the misconception that this wiki was aiming for some kind of neutral state of a wannabe wikipedia, and I'm not sure that "unbalanced" as the notice does the trick. I mean, for me the goal of this template is basically to alert visitors to the nature of these pages, so that they don't feel slighted by the way an article presents an incomplete patchwork (with no visible pattern or structure in which people felt the need to add either sometimes, beyond what editors felt relevant to say), but rather encouraged to add more to fix it. So I want to emphasize primarily that there is stuff missing, not that what is there is wrong or problematic in itself somehow. Which your initial proposal didn't as such because it was all phrased so tentatively, but for separate reasons I'm not fond of that. I like your later revision better.--RatCreature 12:48, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I changed the version to the revision you said you like better. How about this version without balanced or in progress, etc. "Some opinions or a particular focus may take up more space than seems justified by the length of the article or by the issue at hand. Please change and expand the focus by adding to the article and check out our Plural Point of View policy. When in doubt, discuss your concerns on the talk page of the article." --Doro 17:04, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, that could also work. Maybe someone who helped draft the original PPOV policy will drop by for some more brainstorming how to communicate it best in a short notice template. I admit that while I get the ideal/theory behind it, I'm not so sure how it is supposed to be implemented well with so few people editing and the resulting problems and content distortions and blanks. It seems to rely very much on a large number of fans being eager to add their viewpoints to fanlore, a situation which is just not the reality of this wiki, unfortunately.--RatCreature 17:13, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

images?

can of tuna? do I even want to know? But I think the icon, rather than picking one random from the leftovers, should be one of those stylized crowd images, with lots of little people, you know to indicate a crowd with multiple viewpoints, or something.--RatCreature 19:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

can of tuna? do I even want to know? Here you go. *g* I just wanted to try out how to add an image to a template, where it would end up and what it would look like. :) --Doro 19:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

My inner geek wants to use a Vulcan IDIC symbol to illustrate this, but I'm afraid it wouldn't be pan-fandom enough...--RatCreature 19:35, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

We could make a contest out of it. *g* Fanlore fanart. XD --Doro 19:44, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh yes, please! I mean, I have absolutely no talent where drawing is concerned, but Fanlore definitely needs more visual stuff. Like icons. Or even a logo *rolls eyes*. Michelle 21:56, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I thought the crumbling letters were the logo?--RatCreature 22:00, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

That's what I thought too. And I rather like it because it visualizes history, from xeroxed copies to fine computer print. I'm all in favor of more visual stuff though. There is a reason why I add images to everything! *g* --Doro 22:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

That's a logo? Oops, I thought that was just a bit of photoshopped text someone scrambled up for lack of anything better. *shuts up now* Michelle 23:14, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Heh. I have no clue how long it took and what process was involved, but I thought it was all symbolic too, like with the crumbling left symbolizing the past and the fuzziness of oral history or something, and then the clearer right as future emerging from that or something, like an evolution. I didn't think of xeroxes like Doro (though now that she mentioned it it makes sense), but it definitely works like a recognizable logo for me, and I quite like it too. But yeah, some other images on the wiki admin side wouldn't hurt.--RatCreature 23:25, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Umm, okay *is still dubious* ;-) Michelle 13:32, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

image

I couldn't stand that lightbulb, so I drew my suggestion for a PPOV logo, and uploaded it. I think it holds up decently made small (the uploaded png is a bit larger). In case the idea is not obvious, it is supposed to show the multitude of fans by showing several tiny heads, like the LJ and DW logos and such, only each looks different, like there's the one with a wizard hat, one in a Spock costume, a furry, a pirate, etc (I picked those because they are kind of iconic and held up well small). I think this is better than a lightbulb, but of course this or something else could be done sleeker or whatever.--RatCreature 13:40, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

THIS IS AWESOME AND I'M MADLY IN LOVE WITH IT!!! <3 ETA: Just one thing, would it be possible to make one character (other than the witch) look a bit more female? --Doro 14:07, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Ahahaha! I love it. --MegR 14:15, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad you like it. I just couldn't stand the idea that this template might go live with lightbulb clipart to represent a central principle of our wiki. Not least because I always think ff.net first when I see lightbulbs in fandom, because that had been their logo for quite some time, even though now it's different. And nothing against them or anything, but we should have our own pictures.--RatCreature 14:18, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Uh, how does the one with the HP wizard hat feel more female than the others in the first place? I intentionally did not add any gender markers to any of them, i.e. noboy besides the Spock-costume one has hair, no body shapes, no skirts and/or trousers, because they were supposed to be a mix of smiley face/and these wood peg human images that stand for user. How would you have me make one female?--RatCreature 14:29, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, even with your comments in mind, they do still look male to me. Male is the unmarked gender; absent gender markers that's what most people will assume. Plus, they are mostly all bald, which kind of *is* a male gender marker. And yet! I totally agree there is not much you could change without being all 'girls have long hair and wear skirts!' So... I'm not sure I have a useful suggestion. Maybe the front one could have breasts? --MegR 14:58, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if there is a good solution for this. :/ Maybe the one in the yellow shirt could have long hair? I think the witch reads as female to me because you can't really see that s/he is supposed to be bald. --Doro 15:27, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Hm. I'm not happy with adding "non-costume" hair. I almost left it off from the Spock-one. Maybe I could add another one that does a more female-reading cosplay option or some other prop, but is clearly bald also? To make clearer that the costumes are not supposed to be gendered? Like princesses only more media fandom-specific. or more female hair that is part of a widely recognized fandom costume. I just can't think of any on the top of my head.--RatCreature 15:56, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Princess Leia has 'costume' hair. Sailor moon outfit? --MegR 16:07, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, after I replied I thought of Leia. The buns are fairly widely recognized. I had to google Sailor Moon (I'm really not an anime person), and I suppose I could do something like that, which would have the advantage also to be an anime fandom, so it would be more diverse in another direction instead of adding another Western fandom. (I honestly didn't think of anime ones at all). I also could give the pirate long hair, that would fit with a pirate costume. I just fear that if I give one of the "plain-clothes" peg-smileys long hair that would really mark the baldness as male, because then among the ones without costume would read as one male and one female, with really only the single special one reading female. --RatCreature 16:16, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree that's a problem. Possibly you could give one the buns, but *just* the buns? No other hair? (pirate with long hair would still read as male to me, because I'd be thinking of Jack Sparrow!) --MegR 16:31, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

How about this revision? --RatCreature 17:01, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I like it! Spock does look a bit like he's wearing some kind of hat now ;}, but I think it's a big improvement. --MegR 19:19, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Well the size and simplification does constrain a bit, I mean the buns look kinda like earmuffs too, but then I have actually seen Leia costumes of the less-perfectionist kind that came with fake-buns that were attached to an earmuff-kind of thing, so maybe it is fitting, lol.--RatCreature 19:26, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

The Sailor Moon hair is perfect! I don't know if I would recognize Leia as Leia but she looks female (could be a Minbari! heh *g*) and I like it. Maybe the perspective looks a bit off with Sailor Moon so much taller than Spock but I guess it would be difficult to move her head down because the tail of the furry would get in the way. I think it works well in the size it is displayed in the template and it makes me wish we had icons for all the templates. Thank you so much for this! :D --Doro 19:43, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Just imagine the sailor moon one stands on a box for the photo-shoot... And yeah, having icons for the attention grabbing templates would be nice, at least for "needs more fandom" and "clean up". I guess cleanup could be something cleaning related, like a dustpan and broom maybe? but I have no ideas what could represent "needs more fandom".--RatCreature 19:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

She could stand on a box like Scully or she could be jumping up and down. That would even be in character. *g* Ideas for the other template, hmm... dustpan and broom could work for "clean up". The only fannish examples I can think of right now are all Merlin related (no surprise there!), like Arthur's shirt washing itself in the bucket and the sword getting polished by invisible hands and magic. Heh. Needs more fandom could be an army of clones in suits and one or two clearly fannish characters fighting them off? Like Xena with her chakram or something. --Doro 20:20, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Awesome! Two thumbs up!--æthel 19:46, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

needs category

like the other cleanup notices, this should get a category. What should the category name be? PPOV? Needs more points of view?--æthel 19:27, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Examples of usage

Discussions of how and when to use the PPOV Template are here.--MeeDee (talk) 17:49, 8 December 2012 (UTC)