Talk:Served in Combat

Page Name Discussion

I think this should move to Vietnam War. It feels weird to have a whole country named as a trope. :/ --Doro 16:56, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay, though I hardly ever see it referred to as the Vietnam War, always Vietnam. --Mrs. Potato Head 17:17, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Broader round-the-world usage? Here in Canada it's mostly referred to as the Vietnam War. -- Greer Watson 18:13, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi Gardeners, I find having a fannish trope named after a country or war to be incredibly offensive regardless of what fans referred it to and especially when there's nothing in the article addressing how it is racially problematic for fans to referred a fannish trope as Vietnam and Vietnam War. Please rename and reword this article. --wistfuljane 17:40, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

What do do other folk suggest, then, as a fix? --Mrs. Potato Head 17:52, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I would classify it as as a subsection of war porn or h/c (problematic tropes) and reword the article so that it conveys that there is a trope within fandom to provide a character with a U.S. military background in the Vietnam war, usually, as either a pretext for h/c or manpain instead of having it implied that Vietnam and the Vietnam War exists solely to provide fandom with instant plot! Something a bit like the article on Nazi AUs/fandoms with canonical Nazis article (http://fanlore.org/wiki/Nazi), I guess, but without the problematic name or waving of problematic elements of that article. --wistfuljane 19:19, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Until we get the other POV that wistfuljane is asking for, I am going to add a note to the main page redirecting people to the discussion here. Hopefully, that will help attract the attention of people who share the POV (unless wistfuljane wants to take a stab at adding the content herself). --Morgandawn 19:22, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm inclined to think that an article on wartime experiences used as a trope in fandoms in a more general way would allow for discussion of the topic in a more general way. Vietnam War experiences in Simon and Simon are not appreciably different from Afghanistan experiences as used in Sherlock (old and new) or SGA. I think it would be valuable to discuss the ways that canon depicts military history for manpain purposes and the way fans do it.--facetofcathy 23:26, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Maybe 'Military Background' would be a better title for this trope? --Liviapenn

I think that this particular trope is not just having a military background, but actually having served in a combat zine/war and that this service/experience is central to the character. So I'd suggest "Served in the war" or "Served in combat". We can also do any number of synonyms and redirects so readers end up in the right place, which means we have a lot of flexibility in wording. So I'd support a rename of this page.--Morgandawn 21:25, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

PS. I am willing to rename the page if someone will show me how? I want to keep the discussion/talk page since I think it can help direct people to areas that might need tweaking/additions. --Morgandawn 21:31, 10 October 2010 (UTC) edited to add: I'll be using this http://fanlore.org/wiki/Help:Moving_a_page and renaming it to Served in combat. --Morgandawn 21:35, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Move/rename has been done. Hopefully others can now jump in and add whatever context they feel is needed.--Morgandawn 21:45, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I've done what I could from the notes I made yesterday. It needs work--consider this my plea for more editors to jump in. I think the page itself should contain details about the fannish use of "Vietnam" to denote, not the nation in all its complexity, but one US-centric conflict that occurred there--this is outside the scope of my fandom knowledge. I did remove all such use from this page and substituted Vietnam war. I do think Military Backstory or Combat Backstory would be a better title--just my 2 cents. Regardless, the current title is not in correct title case.--facetofcathy 02:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I like either Military Backstory or Combat Backstory.--æthel 03:28, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I mentioned this on the wiki list, but then realised not everybody in this discussion would be partisan to the email -- I'm quite happy to clump together some words (and paragraphs) on why the Vietnam conflict is seen as a catch-all trope for manpain, in terms of the evolution of psychiatry and of PTSD as a diagnosis, and how some progressive fans realise that the ongoing debate of whether PTSD is a Western mental-illness or not should affect their fanworks (the only cites I have for the latter point are my own DW blog, but hopefully that shouldn't matter too much). --awils1 10:10, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

The more voices and POVs the better. Although I think this is a meaty enough topic (PTSD and fan fic portrayals) to warrant its own page, with a link from here? We have a placeholder for it on the 'served in combat" main page (under synonyms). Thoughts?--Morgandawn 15:24, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

We have Disability_fic#Specific_Tropes as well. PTSD could go there and then if it grows big enough, a new page. Some info can go here too as it specifically relates to this page--I'm thinking Sherlock(BBC) here.--facetofcathy 16:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Nods, it could also go there. to me, not as important where we initially place it, as much as we get the content, because I think this is an area where we need more POVs. So Awils1... feel free to put it where-ever it seems right for you and you can tweak later (if needed). --Morgandawn 18:33, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

canon or fanon?

I know that Kelly Robinson (of I Spy) had canon Korean War service as backstory, but what about Napoleon Solo (Man from Uncle)-- canon or fanon? Liviapenn 23:25, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Found the Napolean Solo/Korean War reference and added it. --Morgandawn 15:24, 12 October 2010 (UTC)