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I've tried to be fair in creating this article, but I hope that fans on multiple sides of this issue will help out. Links to or discussion of particular controversies would also be good. --Ari 02:04, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Your definition of dub-con reads like what I know as non-con. Maybe dub-con is the newer term? I don't think I've seen it used ten years ago when I read a lot of non-con in XF fandom. ETA: On second thought, I'm not entirely sure from reading that paragraph what exactly there defines dub-con and what refers to non-con. /o\--Doro 05:30, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
You're right that it should be clarified, possibly by someone with more stake in it than I have. A quick google informs me that people are definitely using "dub-con" as a warning (and it seems to be distinct from "non-con") but I'm leaving it for now until I think of or find a better way to express the distinction. --Ari 06:00, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Added Dub-con page, tweaked the notes here so that hopefully they're a bit clearer about the difference. --Elfwreck 03:32, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
FWIW, when I tag for dubcon in my delicious bookmarks, I use it for stories in which the sex is not non-con in the context of the story as perceived by the characters, but a non-con situation if you look at it from the outside, e.g. slavefic where the slave likes the master and is not unhappy with the sex in the story, or for stories in which the characters can't give consent (e.g. sex pollen or amtdi) but both are in the end happy with the outcome, because they secretly wanted to have sex. More or less stories that lack a focus on feelings of violation, but from outsider POV with modern consent sensibilities the sex wouldn't be considered consensual.--RatCreature 12:32, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Oh, sometimes I use dubcon also for stories that have such an unreliable narrator that it remains open whether the sex was wanted by both or not, that can happen for example in established relationship stories, where one partner assumes the other likes that particular kind of sex, but there are hints in the story that the other character has different motives for compliance, for example not breaking up or insecurities, but we never find out for sure. --RatCreature 12:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Defining non-con

I'm trying to figure out how to bring up the version of emotional consent vs legal consent--that non-con covers some conditions that are not legally rape (forced marriage/bonding, some sex pollen stories, sacrificing oneself to the villain, spousal sex in some places, sex with payment in some areas), and generally does not cover some conditions that legally are rape (most notably in regards to underage, but some other issues like drug/alcohol/sex pollen lowered inhibitions, prisoner seducing a guard, etc.)

IMHO, Non-con deals with one's mental state; "rape" is a term describing a legal state. (Should I put that in the main entry?)

I'll look for links to discussions/flamewars. --Elfwreck

Redirects needed

Need a decision about terminology: noncon, Non-con or Non-Con; I've seen the other two as red links. --Elfwreck 04:34, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I redirected "Noncon" and "Non-Con" to "Non-con." (I think all wikipagenames begin with a capital letter, but I'm not sure). I saw it as "Non-con" first on the "Sex Pollen" page and created a page from the red link.--Ari 05:04, 30 September 2008 (UTC)