Critical Edge

Mailing List
Name:	Critical Edge (CritEdge)
Date(s):	Oct 23, 2000 – 2019
Moderated:	Yes
Moderators/List Maintainers:	laura jacquez, Mary Ellen Curtin
Type:	discuss and critique fan fiction
Fandom:	Highlander
URL:	CriticalEdge at Yahoo! Groups
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Critical Edge (CritEdge) was a Highlander mailing list. It was moderated by laura jacquez and Mary Ellen Curtin.

message history

It was most active between 2000 and the first half of 2006.

One of the mods, Mary Ellen Curtin, described it as "No stories, variable bandwidth of tomfoolery, serious lit-crit, whining, and historical discussion."

List Description

A list to discuss and critique Highlander fan fiction of all kinds: gen, het, and slash. No character or pairing is privileged or forbidden. Because HL canon theoretically encompasses all of history and a cast of billions, discussions of history, culture, and fencing are as on-topic as Whether Methos Really Only Drinks Beer Onscreen. No story posts, but we encourage story links and announcements. Discussion guidelines should follow Macedon's "Mannerly Art of Disagreement" and Peg's "Mannerly Art of Critique", at: http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/au/disagree.txt and http://www.eclipse.net/~mecurtin/au/critique.txt

Regarding Discussing Posted Fic and Critique

From comments by a mod from Critical Edge, a Highlander list shortly after this list was created:

We've gotten a question about this offlist, and want to address it here.

"The Mannerly Art of Critique" is a document that has been around for quite some time in the newsgroups where Mary Ellen and I started reading and critiquing fan fiction. We're both used to it, to the point of forgetting that there are things in it with which we don't necessarily agree. We apologize for not checking it more carefully.

In general, it is an excellent guide for how to have critical discussions without degenerating into personal attacks. It is also a piece of material that we didn't want to lift entire chunks from wholesale, nor did we want to rewrite it; further, the entire document is phrased as suggestions, not as hard-and-fast rules.

To address the specific question we were asked:

"The Mannerly Art of Critique" contains the following:

> 1. Only crit those who have INVITED crit, or who have given you permission when you ask.

This is *not* policy on this list. We consider the very act of having made a piece of fanfiction available as both invitation and permission to critique; no specific permission is necessary.

It may be necessary for Mary Ellen and I, or for this list as a whole, to write an internal guide for mannerly critique that we can refer list members to. Any questions about "The Mannerly Art of Critique" or Macedon's "The Mannerly Art of Disagreement" can be addressed to Mary Ellen or I, either on or off list.

Thank you. Laura J. Valentine, Critical Edge Listadmin #2

Rules of the Game: Mailing List Rules and FAQs

Rules of the Game

1. Criticism. Serious, not serious, sound drubbings, round mockings, and utter gushing - all allowed. No, really. Gen, het, and slash discussion is permitted, and no character or pairing is privileged or forbidden.

2. Purpose. Contrary to what some people seem to believe, we are not here to workshop writers. There are other lists for that. Criticism is by readers, for readers; we don't care if the author knows about the critique or not, and although we certainly don't object to authorial participation, CritEdge is not a forum for authors in terms of criticism.

It is a forum for authors in terms of research and resources. Because HL canon theoretically encompasses all of history and a cast of billions, discussions of history, culture, and fencing are as on-topic as Whether Methos Really Only Drinks Beer Onscreen (he doesn't).

3. The Mannerly Art of Critique. "The Mannerly Art of Critique" is a document that has been around for quite some time in the newsgroups the list moderators started reading and critiquing fan fiction.

In general, it is an excellent guide for how to have critical discussions without degenerating into personal attacks. It is also a piece of material that the list moderators didn't want to lift entire chunks from wholesale, nor did they want to rewrite it; further, the entire document is phrased as suggestions, not as hard-and-fast rules. The list moderators *are* rewriting it for this list, but it's a slow process.

To address a specific issue in the current form of the document: "The Mannerly Art of Critique" contains the following:

"Only crit those who have INVITED crit, or who have given you permission when you ask."

This is *not* policy on this list. The list moderators consider the very act of having made a piece of fanfiction available as both invitation and permission to critique; no specific permission is necessary.

4. Post trimming. Please cut out irrelevant things from your responses. It's annoying to have to read through the entire previous post (or more!) to get to whatever a new poster has to say. This is extra-courteous for those who are on digest, or who have to pay for online time or by the amount downloaded.

5. Metadiscussion. This is a big one. Many lists ban it; CriticalEdge does not.

What this means: you can talk about discussion - how to write criticism, why to write criticism, whether you like the tone of a particular piece of criticism.

What it doesn't mean is that it's a free-for-all. It's not. Personal attacks are off-limits; telling people they *cannot* or *should not* criticize is not permitted.

"I don't like the tone of your critique" is fine. "I don't think you should write critique" is not.

6. No one except one of the list moderators has the right to tell any members of the list to play nice. Even if you really wish other members of the list would play nice--well, you can *ask* them to play nice, but you're not going to get backup from this quarter.

Basically, the rule here is "play as mean as you want, as long as you don't make ad hominem attacks or threats." Think of it as a rough soccer game. Violence allowed, but sportsmanship counts.

7. Sockpuppets and trolls. Historically, we have a problem with these. (They are especially fond of emerging from the woodwork when one or both of the list moderators are out of town or otherwise unable to access their computers.) Don't respond to them. If you respond and then realize they're a troll or sockpuppet, don't keep responding.

What they want most is to cause a ruckus. Don't let them.

8. Ad hominem (personal) attacks. If you do this too much, and the list moderators might ban you for being disruptive; you will be warned and put on moderated status first should this issue actually arise.

Calling anyone mean, or stupid, or fat - those are the obvious types of personal attack.

Talking about who's in who else's kill file is a no-no.

Attributing a lack of intelligence, adulthood, tact, etc. to particular individuals is a no-no.

Accusing list members of being puppeteers (the people behind a sockpuppet) is a no-no.

Asking someone *directly*, in a response to a post they have made, if they are a sockpuppet is allowed, as is asking them if they are a puppeteer. (You should be aware that such questions often turn into flamewars.)

Saying things like "I *could* call you [insult], but I won't" counts as saying that thing.

Heated discussion is fine. Arguments that result in lifelong fannish enmity due to political positions on slash, gen, het, or Joe's brand of hair gel are also fine. Attacking other people is NOT fine. Don't do it.

9. Threats. These can get you banned from the list immediately. No pardon, no appeal. The list moderators don't want to stop people from expressing themselves in a free & raucous manner, but anything that might be construed as a threat of violence has to be done (a) in a humorous manner *and* (b) only to your closest friends. So if, for instance, Mary Ellen says something outrageous, Laura can write: "OK, that's it, I'm sending Caspian to your house for breakfast." and trust it will be clear to all that no actual rancor is involved. If it might not be clear to all that your threats are only in fun, DO NOT POST. Specifically, do not post if you are making joking threats to someone to whom you do not consider yourself close.

If you are actually close friends but the list has no reason to know it, you need to say something like, "Speaking as one of your close friends, I'll rip your head off with a spoon."

The list moderators have no wish to be as humorless as airport security guards, but they have to take seriously-phrased threats seriously.

10. Flamewars. Don't participate. They are no one's friend.

11. Real Person Fiction and MiSTs.

Discussion of Real Person Fic or ideas, like every other kind of writing or ideas, is not out of bounds on CritEdge. Posters should be aware that these are contentious issues and some people may get upset. No topic will be ruled OT on the grounds that it is upsetting.

Line-by-line critiques are permitted. The list moderators prefer other forms of criticism. Out and out MiSTS (fiction mocking the other story in a line-by-line way) are not; they are fiction, not critique.

12. Zine Stories. On-topic. Go ahead and yammer away. Just make sure to label the posts, so that those who don't have the zine and don't want to be spoiled (or who *do* want to be spoiled) can avoid (or gobble up) the posts.

You can label in the subject line (probably the kindest way to do it, especially for those list members on slow connections) or put a note in the first line of your post that you're discussing [Name of Zine] or [Story from Name of Zine]. You can also put in spoiler space if you like, but it's not required.

Other Information:

A. What happens when someone violates a list rule?

That person's post may be the subject of an ADMIN post, the person may be contacted about the violation offlist, the person may be set on moderated status, or the admins may decide that the provocation was sufficient.

Usually that last never comes into play unless the person is a longtime listmember with a history of obeying the list rules but violates one because of extreme circumstances.

B. What will get an ADMIN post?

When someone violates a list rule, they *usually*, though not always, have done one of four things.

1. they have posted something off-topic without labelling it such

2. they have made a personal attack in a way that warrants on-list commentary from us

3. they are participating in a flamewar

4. they have made a personal attack in a way that does not warrant on-list commentary from us.

Areas 1 through 3 are likely to get an ADMIN post.

Area 2 and Area 4 are where the interesting bits come in: what warrants commentary? Generally, what is going to get an ADMIN post falls into three areas:

1. a comment which is really incredibly nasty, such as implying that someone is a rapist, murderer, pedophile, etc. based on either their posts or their fiction

2. a comment made obliquely or that appears to be an attempt to disguise an insult.

3. a comment not as nasty as A, but which the poster has a habit of making, especially if they direct such attack against a particular person repeatedly.

Anything outside of these three areas is unlikely to get an ADMIN-post addressing it; usually, the poster just receives a note off-list telling them what they did, and asking them not to do it again.

The list moderators *do* try to keep the ADMIN'ing down, and keeping some of it off-list helps with that. The list is fairly volatile but not, generally speaking, unmanageable or prone to spontaneous hostility; a great deal of comments in Area 4 are just poor wording choices or heat-of-the-moment-thoughtlessness.

The list moderators try to apply these rules fairly; they'd like their frequent opponents to be as comfortable here as their frequent supporters.

C. What will get someone set on moderated status?

Moderated status is at the administrators' discretion. Anything that garners an ADMIN post can also get you moderated. Repeated and persistent disruption of the list can get you moderated. Ignoring an admin post can get you moderated. Making the admins lose sleep over your behavior can get you moderated.

It's not something we like to do, but we will if we have to.

D. What will get you banned?

Trying to get around moderated status by posting from another account will get all accounts we can trace to you banned. Making death threats on-list will get you banned. Engaging in sockpuppetry will get all accounts we can trace to you banned. Repeated and persistent disruption of the list can get you banned. If we have to moderate you repeatedly, we may ban you to save ourselves the headache of dealing with you.