User:Castille/Sandbox2

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Title:	so back in the day i read HPMOR, right?
Creator:	eccentric-nucleus
Date(s):	Sep 11, 2022 Followup discussion posted February 2023-Present
Medium:	online, Tumblr
Fandom:	panfandom and original fiction; followup discussions focused on HPMOR, Worm, Worth the Candle, and more
Topic:	progression fantasy, LitRPG, rationalist fiction, wish-fullfilment fantasy
External Links:	Tumblr, Archived version
Click here for related articles on Fanlore.

so back in the day i read HPMOR, right? is an untitled essay posted to tumblr by eccentric-nucleus on 11 September 2022. It sparked discussion of the litrpg genre from an outsider perspective, the merits of genres we don't like, and also recommendations.

The Essay

The essay describes the author's experiences reading the popular fanfic Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality as well as the webnovel Mother of Learning and the website RoyalRoad, all of which the author places as part of the genre of progression fantasy, in which characters train to become more skilled and powerful over time.

The author describes the approach of progression fantasy as "an angle [they] had never really considered before", as "[writing] a character stomping through a little fake world going from victory to victory so that the reader could enjoy the vicarious glow of having a hard problem presented to them and then immediately resolved".

While progression fantasy is a popular genre — the essay notes RoyalRoad is "farmed by publishers", and the author's own attempt at writing a progression fantasy had become one of the most popular for a short time — eccentric-nucleus describes it as an uninteresting philosophy of writing fiction, saying "'i want to feel powerful' is an expression of human desire but it's a particularly flat one."

The author also contrasts progression fantasy with fanfiction, particularly longfic and pwp. They note that these types of fic are not free from flaws (pointing to fanfic house style, formulaic plots and cliches) but comes to the conclusion that they are ultimately more interesting than progression fantasy because they say something more interesting about human desire.

Lilietsblog's Response

On January 2, 2024, lilietsblog wrote a six-part response which garnered particular interest; being reblogged widely.

1. The comment sections display the worst of the genre:

Nowhere are the literary shortcomings of the genre more pronounced than in the comments section. The poor writers might actually have some sort of character ideas but they are accompanied by a background chorus of "why did the protagonist give up the gains (tm) for that random side character? the protagonist should only care about getting stronger!"

2. Low bar to entry means more amateur writers trying (and perhaps not succeeding) in experessing "character-based ideas":

I actually do think that the WRITERS of this genre really do frequently try to express character-based ideas. LitRPG has a very low entry bar because it's formulaic enough you don't have to be good at stories to put a few chapters together, and then you can just keep going using the progression as a plot crutch. It's a genre that attracts novices, because it's easy. I don't even mean in the sense that "novices who want to wirte anything will choose to write LitRPGs" I mean in the sense of "more people who have once thought they would like to write a LitRPG actually end up publishing a LitRPG proportionally than other genres".

3. "ALL LitRPGs deal with transhumanism." -- for lilietsblog, this is a draw of the genre:

Also, regardless of the writers' intent and consciousness of this fact, ALL LitRPGs deal with transhumanism. Their characters are changed as they level up, and each writer chooses HOW, how it feels to them, which aspects change and which don't, whether there are stats for "intelligence" and "charisma" and what it looks like when they go up. They are not particularly nuanced or well-thought-through takes by and large, but that's their very charm. It's not what the author wanted to say, it's just what they think, how they see the concept. And I find it wicked interesting even when I abandon the work on chapter 10 bc my curiousity has been satisfied and I'm interested in literally nothing else about the story.

4.Defense of competent protagonists, theorized interaction with YA genre trends:

Quite frankly, there's nothing wrong with writing competent protagonists. They can still encounter meaningful challenges and be changed by the experience! Not everyone needs to be a YA dystopia ingenue who didn't realize their world kinda sucks before plot hits and has 0 relevant skills to anything that happens to them afterwards. The progression fantasy surge might be a blowback against that, actually? And writers frequently overfocus on this and overthink this, throwing their characters between entirely avoidable errors and inexplicable hypercompetence, because it's the topic of the day.

5. There are well-written progression fantasy works:

No, for real, there's plenty of progression fantasy that actually has good character work, worldbuilding work and plot work. And then there's progression fantasy that's just really good at being fun to read, action-filled and well-paced (Azarinth Healer has a LOT of weaknesses but it's so so so enjoyable). Sure, lots of it is very clumsy, but the same is true of any genre.

6. Defense of the literary value of Progression Fantasy stories and humanity of their writers:

And it's always a tempting trap to find meaningful literary value in even the least professional and most awkward works in the genre that speaks to you, while dismissing all works in genres that don't that can't convince you and draw you in regardless. But remember: if shlocky porn riddled with grammatic errors and misuse of synonyms has literary value, so do "numbers go up" protagonist-beats-up-everyone LitRPGs. Because on the other side of the text there's always a writer, trying to paint a picture with words and make other people imagine what's being on their mind.

7. Don’t like, don’t read.

Other Responses

• interesting look at LitRPGs
  • "dark corners" -- particularly weaselandfriends' reblog but others picked up the term and shared examples e.g. the tags here
• people agreeing or disagreeing or disagreeing with OP's harsh assessments of the genre