Talk:Palestinian Solidarity and Fandom
Hi, idk where this would go, but you could include an internal link to this Stay Activism Regarding the Conflict. -JadedPrism (talk) 17:06, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
Thoughts
Literally only just realised this page had been created. Right, ok. I'm just gonna shove some thoughts here, don't mind me:
- Hesitant about it being referred to as a 'conflict' implying an equal power dynamic, as Palestinians themselves have asked not to do so, but I'm not fully sure what else to use in this context for such a wide topic. 'Palestinian Occupation and Fandom' could work, although I'm not sure how much support I'll get on that. Important to note, a change in title to accurately reflect the reality of the occupation wouldn't prevent there being sections on a range of topics relating to it, such as regarding an increase in antisemitism and anti-Arabism in fandom as a result of the escalation in the region.
- That discussion section desperately needs some quotes, especially from Palestinian voices, to counter its bias and lack of context. The only quotes currently are all either criticising pro-Palestinians (advice for anyone reading this: don't use the term pro-Pal or pro-Pals to describe the movement or its supporters... just don't) or accusations of antisemitism from Pro-Israel or openly zionist bloggers whose definition of antisemitism incorporates antizionism (the next tag on from '#keep politics out of fandom' in the original relevant post is literally '#anti-zionism is antisemitism'). I'm not suggesting getting rid of the quotes, but I think we definitely need some better transparency here and further quotes from Palestinian and Jewish fans to better contextualise everything.
I'm gonna see what I can do with some of the structure of the article myself, if anyone would like to add their own thoughts. -- OfMonstersAndWerewolves (talk) 19:32, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I personally called title in my section of fandom 'Israel/Palestine War' but that really only, I guess, technically applies to the first milital strike? So the Occupation is probably a way better term to encompass literally *everything* that led up to that point. I totally support that change, and found 'conflict' a bit on the dismissive side. More Palestinian voices would be great. I don't really think I've seen any, within fandom, on my side of the web. So I don't have anything helpful for you content-wise. Just big agree. And thank you for your nuance. That's my two cents. -JadedPrism (talk) 22:21, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
Hold it.
- Look at Wikipedia:Military_occupation#Examples_of_occupations. "Israeli occupation of the Golan Heights". So then would "Palestinian Occupation and Fandom" imply that the Palestinians are the ones occupying land over which they don't have legitimate claim?
- Also stated and cited in Wikipedia: "Occupation is distinguished from annexation and colonialism on the basis that it is a power structure that the ruling power intends to keep in place only temporarily."
- —PictoChatCyberBully (talk) 04:39, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- It's true that settler colonialism is the more accurate term for what has occurred to the whole of Palestine, i.e the region of both the Palestinian Territories and what is now known as Israel, but I would like to point out that the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and Syria's Golan Heights are recognised as occupations: Israeli-occupied territories. Your point about confusing folks as to who's occupying is valid, although I feel like context in the article itself should resolve that. Although, looking at it now, it still might not be the most accurate term to use. Hmm... -- OfMonstersAndWerewolves (talk) 12:03, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe "Palestinian solidarity and fandom" could be a possible alternative title. See Wikipedia:Category:Palestinian solidarity movement. —PictoChatCyberBully (talk) 00:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
- That's certainly an option, yeah. What's other people's thoughts? -- OfMonstersAndWerewolves (talk) 21:10, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe "Palestinian solidarity and fandom" could be a possible alternative title. See Wikipedia:Category:Palestinian solidarity movement. —PictoChatCyberBully (talk) 00:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
- It's true that settler colonialism is the more accurate term for what has occurred to the whole of Palestine, i.e the region of both the Palestinian Territories and what is now known as Israel, but I would like to point out that the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and Syria's Golan Heights are recognised as occupations: Israeli-occupied territories. Your point about confusing folks as to who's occupying is valid, although I feel like context in the article itself should resolve that. Although, looking at it now, it still might not be the most accurate term to use. Hmm... -- OfMonstersAndWerewolves (talk) 12:03, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
Page Title Discussion
In the case of the title, I think we would be well served to use a title that will be easy for people to understand and find via fanlore's search tool. I think that a fan trying to find this page would likely search for things like "Israel" and "Palestine" so we should include those in the title. So, the current title of "Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and Fandom" will help people discover this page and resource. I wouldn't title this page as "Palestinian Occupation and Fandom" because it would be hard to find, and that title might confuse people as to who is doing occupying, where the occupation is happening, and so on.
So, how do we make sure this page can be found in search and the title is descriptive? Well, the title could include the word "Israel" or "Israeli", and a title could also include "Gaza", "Palestine", or "Palestinian". I think the title should also include a word or phrase such as "humanitarian crisis", "conflict", "war", or "occupation". I agree that right now, "annexation" is not a good choice.
I actually think the current title is not bad. The current title is easily searchable and people will know what this page is about when they see it. Lastly, if desire to take some notes from Wikipedia pages on naming: the relevant pages are named Wikipedia:Gaza-Israel Conflict, Wikipedia:Israel–Hamas war, Wikipedia:Gaza humanitarian crisis (2023–present), and Wikipedia:Gaza Strip famine. I think these are good examples of the kind of search terms that fans on Fanlore may use when trying to find this page. -- FBV (talk) 10:28, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
Intro section
Intro section is currently just a sentence, so I padded it out with some links to wikipedia articles to give historical & nonfannish context. I also added a really broad overview of the fannish side of things. However, we will want more sentences describing the fannish side of things, so that people get get an idea of the general overview of article without digging around in the pile of links and quotes. -- FBV (talk) 11:27, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
Hey PictoChatCyberBully, I've just moved your addition to a separate section titled Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and Fandom#Brief Context, mainly to keep the intro a bit more succinct. Feel free to incorporate bits in again though, I wasn't quite sure myself if there was a way of including some of it in if worded shorter. -- OfMonstersAndWerewolves (talk) 19:10, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Article Structure
Currently, the top-level headings in the article are Fundraising, Notable Fandoms, Fandom-related occurrences, TPTB, Discussion, and Fan works. I've table-ified the Fundraising section to make it a bit more legible. How should we organize the rest of this? Some thoughts:
- Looks like "Notable Fandoms" is mostly about fandoms interacting with creators or doing community moderation, maybe we should rename that.
- Fandom-related occurrences might be rolled into "notable fandoms" if we don't need to organize things by fandoms. Maybe just a single section called "Fannish happenings"?
Separately, the "Discussion" section right now seems to be just a collection of links and quotes with a PPOV problem, this area needs a lot of work, since it's just one collection of views and not a broad selection as we ought to have. -- FBV (talk) 12:09, 8 May 2024 (UTC)