Talk:German-Speaking Fandom

To use the history template, the page would probably be named History of Fandom in Germany, which is a more specific topic, and since the page is still a stub, I couldn't say whether it's appropriate here. We also have a generic fandom template you can use: Template:Fandom.--æþel 00:32, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I think I'll leave the template as is until we see what direction this goes? I'll be mainly creating the space, filling in a few links and then will let others more knowledgeable structure the page. Oh, and the page name might need tweaking.--MeeDee 01:02, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Wow, this page makes me really uncomfortable. Do we have a page Fandom in die USA? Fandom in the UK? Is there any possible way to write such a page? The idea that you could condense something like that in a few random links and lines of text seems insulting. Especially as the focus of the page is so narrow when the name suggest so much more. My initial reaction is a big WTF and cringing a lot. Also, it completely ignores that German-language fandom is not fandom in Germany, as Austrian fans have always been a huge part of it all. I once started to write a German-speaking fandom page but realised that it was just too much because even the first very incomplete part about Karl May fandom was soon several pages long and I'm no expert on that fandom and feared to get it wrong. For what it's worth, I startet out with main sections for Karl May, Science Fiction Fandom, Perry Rhodan, Raumpatrouille, Media Fandom, Anime Fandom, and that was just for the history part. ETA: The tl;dr version: We need a whole wiki for English-language fandom, but this is supposed to fit on one page? --Doro 08:24, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with all of this. I like the links to the meta posts, but the apparently planned scope of this page is impossible and the name is badly chosen. That section could be incorporated into other pages: we could have a page with meta/experiences/etc. about being a bilingual fan, and the other posts could have their own pages, for example. (And Doro, I want all of these pages! *_* ) --Tiyire 12:31, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

This is one example of how I sometimes find this wiki depressing. There's very little encouragement for the good things people do, for the ways they stick their neck out and take a chance to start a page or attempt to describe a subject or simply brainstorm. Every new page/idea/subject is an experiment, really, and one that can be coaxed along, rediverted, altered, renamed, broken down into other things, material and links harvested for other things, you know, the whole wiki-way thing. And ideally done with kindness and tact in ways that hopefully make others, including the original editor, feel like they want to help. I also don't think folks here get up in the morning and decide to be "insulting" in the work they do here on Fanlore. --Mrs. Potato Head 13:07, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with MPH - I find the comments to be stifling and depressing. As someone who wants to see more International fandom history on Fanlore being able to go to one page to start the process of learning the history of fandom in XYZ country would be helpful. A single page - of even just links - would also offer more visibility to and understanding of non-US cultures. And there are some aspects of fannish history that are unique to certain countries. Right now, the info is buried and hard to find. Starting a page like this was daunting and overwhelming. I spent hours trying to locate meta commentary outside of Fanlore and then spent even more time tracking down existing Fanlore info to list it in a single location. It seemed obvious that this page was only a stub and a beginning and that the structure of the page needed further discussion. To be clear - questioning how the page is structured or how it is named and wanting it to have a different focus or moved to other sections of Fanlore is part and parcel of Wiki editing. Questioning the effort and implying that the effort is insulting discourages editors from adding any additional international content. As I am discouraged now. So that my contributions do not further muddy the issue, I will gracefully bow out and give others autonomy to determine whether to proceed.--MeeDee 18:42, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

would also offer more visibility to and understanding of non-US cultures. And yet, two people who are part of the culture you want to better understand say 'do not want' to the concept of the page. You didn't address any of my points: Wow, this page makes me really uncomfortable. Do we have a page Fandom in die USA? Fandom in the UK? Is there any possible way to write such a page? And the "you" in the line after that is obviously (at least to me) a general "you" and not you personally. If it's not obvious, it might be because I'm not an English native speaker and don't always get the nuances in English text (ETA: That is to say, if you did read it as "you, personally" instead of a general "someone, anyone", that's not what I meant at all and I apologize for that.). Tiyire made good suggestions, for example making it a page about the experiences of EFL speakers in international fandom. When it comes to finding info about German-Speaking fandom, we do have a category for that: Category:German-Speaking Fandom. It could maybe use some subcategory for zines, websites, and everything else that gets enough pages to make subcats necessary, which is something I would suggest to make finding the information easier. --Doro 21:21, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I apologize for giving the impression that I don't value the effort. On the contrary, I'm very happy about any attempt to include more international fandom history on Fanlore, and I'm very grateful to you for finding those fascinating meta posts in particular.

For me the combination of the page name and the structure had the implication that the whole of German-speaking fannish culture could fit on one page, and that is a sensitive topic for me especially because non-English-speaking fandom is so often largely ignored. I realize that by making a page about it you tried to do exactly the opposite of ignoring it, which is great, and what I wanted to express is that in my opinion the current page name & structure are not a good way to do that.

I think I see what you mean about an "overview page" for non-English-speaking fannish communities to make the info easier to find (especially because many people don't browse by category), but I don't know how best to do that: even link lists are impossible because there is just so much. (Maybe if we had more specific pages, like "History of German-speaking Anime fandom" etc., we could make a page to link to these? But that would be a major project.)

I'd love to have a discussion about the best way to add&collect information about fannish culture in different languages and make it more visible, with as many people as possible, especially you since you discovered the need in the first place. --Tiyire 21:33, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I think I might have sounded harsher than I intended, sorry. I certainly don't think anyone was deliberately trying to be insulting, and I'm thrilled to see more content about German-speaking fandom! But I don't think the page as it seems to be planned will work at all. I did suggest ways in which the material could be used differently and I'd be happy to help with that. And the talk pages are here for brainstorming and discussion. (Forum coming soon!) --Tiyire 14:01, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Tiyire, the Raumpatrouille page is already here. ;) --Doro 13:41, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Cool! Karl May and Perry Rhodan next? :D --Tiyire 14:01, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Suggestions

I suggest moving the meta links to an EFL Fans in International Fandom page, renaming this page to List of Pages About German-Speaking Fandom, and then adding the pages we already have in sections like websites, zines, etc, to make finding them easier. That way other people could redlink pages they think should be added and people looking for stuff would get an impression of what kind of content about German-speaking fandom is already there. In addition to that, I think we should move the zine pages and images to their own subcat. Category:German-Language Zines? --Doro 13:59, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I didn't know what EFL means, so I don't think it's a good page title. ;-) The more I think about it, the more I realize that it would be a very complicated page to make. We'd need examples from many different languages/cultures, ideally meta.

How about renaming this one to Characteristics of German-speaking Fandom? That could include links to meta, a list of pages we already have and red-linked pages people want, and a short introduction about any special characteristics of German-speaking fandom. I'm not much involved in it anymore, but some of the meta posts mentioned some things. --Tiyire 18:52, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

What characteristics though? There are no characteristics. There is no singular German fandom and no singular German fandom narrative. Only individual fandoms. Maybe skip the meta part entirely or move it to other pages where it belongs. I would still prefer to make this a List of Pages About German-Speaking Fandom. ETA: International Fans in English-Language Fandom? --Doro 19:27, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

International Fans in English-Language Fandom sounds good!

You're right, there is no singular German fandom. But I do think that there are interesting things to say about German-speaking fannish culture, divided and diverse as it is: when did anime/manga become popular, which "old" fandoms does it have with originally German canons that are less popular in other countries (e.g. Karl May), is it by trend more or less centralized than fannish spaces in other languages, how big is the overlap with international/English-speaking fandom, is there specific legislation in Germany/Austria/Switzerland that plays a role? (Just a few examples, need to be sorted/cleaned up etc., it's late...) Ideally one could learn that by browsing the wiki (as one can now for English-language fandom, in part, but even for English-language-fandom I think such an overview would be interesting), but not yet, and in the meantime it would be a good starting point. --Tiyire 20:57, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Each of these fandoms could have their own page (and they should). As we aren't there yet, a structured list of pages still seems to be the best option to me. Information about legislation should go to the legal pages, just as other information about German-speaking fandom is on the respective pages, where it belongs (for example, want to know about German original slash? Check the original slash page.) --Doro 21:58, 12 May 2012 (UTC)